typical default font sizes

[Haines Brown]

I've been setting font-size 1em; as the default in my style
sheets. Until now, that seemed to be ok. But now I'm beginning to
wonder.

My aim is to have an easily readable, but not overly large text when
the user uses the default font size in his browser and uses the
typical display resolution.

I did a reinstall of my friendly browser in a different environment,
and I am surprised to find that its default for serif is Times 16 and
monospace is Courier 12.

I run a 1280 x 1024 resolution, and the text on page default appears
too large. Given my resolution, I would have expected just the
opposite. I gather that typical today is a resolution of 1024 x
768. If so, would not my browser default font size be suited to that?

The text on my web pages now appears too small. The typical and
default situation seems to make my text lines almost illegible.

--
Haines Brown
br****@hartford-hwp.com
kb****@arrl.net
www.hartford-hwp.com

[Mikko Rantalainen]

kchayka / 2003-11-05 16:33:

Mikko Rantalainen wrote:

Are you trying to say that the font size setting of MSIE does work?

It does work in cases where the author did not set absolute font sizes.
Unfortunately, the web is rife with pages using fonts in px and pt
units, thus View|Text Size appears to be broken.

The View|Text Size setting is broken, also, if the CSS rules use em
unit and font size of the body element isn't set as a percentage
(for example, setting body { font-size: 1em; } gives problems).
Other bugs can be found without a doubt. As I said, "it's possible
for the author to workaround
all those bugs and the visiting MSIE user would be able to use the
setting as intended".

If you compare that feature to comparable features in other
browsers, the only sane conclusion is that the feature provided by
MS doesn't work.

--
Mikko

[Mikko Rantalainen]

kchayka / 2003-11-06 18:27:

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

Here's a more sane workaround for bugs in IE and to get a resonable
font/font-size:

body { font: message-box }

Man, that's waaaaaay too small.

I have increased the default 'message-box' font size by 10% just in
case,

That's still way too small. On my box in my browser of choice,

I think that the only group of users that have problems with font
size is those using MSIE. I'd prefer following (that is, if you
really feel that you have to compensate for clueless MSIE users):

body { font-size: 85%; } /* or anything you want for MSIE */
html>body { font-size: 100%; } /* restore real value, no CSS2 in MSIE */

Not perfect but good enough for most uses.

--
Mikko

[kchayka]

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

kchayka wrote:

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

body { font: message-box }
Man, that's waaaaaay too small.

Again, I've proposed a more sane workaround for the people on "the
other side" - which think the defaults are too big

No, I don't think you have. You might as well use x-small, since they
come out about the same size.
(and you think
your defaults are too small, may be you should consider setting them
larger?).

I specifically set my browser default text size to what I find optimal
for reading large amounts of text on screen. It is fairly large. My
system fonts are significantly smaller, which is perfectly OK because
I'm not reading paragraphs of text at that size, mostly just word
snippets. I am familiar enough with the apps I use where I don't really
need to read much that's in the GUI, anyway.

Both my browser default and system fonts are sized appropriately for
their designated purposes. They are not interchangeable.

I hope you don't next suggest I lower my screen resolution so I'll be
more like the masses... that would be wrong, too.

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

kchayka wrote:

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

kchayka wrote:

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

body { font: message-box }

Man, that's waaaaaay too small.

Again, I've proposed a more sane workaround for the people on "the
other side" - which think the defaults are too big

No, I don't think you have. You might as well use x-small, since they
come out about the same size.

It may appear on your system but not on mine. The 'message-box' font
is meant that it would be enough large for the user to read it...
and again: although it is probably not your preferred font for
reading web pages. It is far more acceptable than decreasing (using
percentages) any undefined/unknown (for the author) user default
font size.

(and you think
your defaults are too small, may be you should consider setting them
larger?).

I specifically set my browser default text size to what I find optimal
for reading large amounts of text on screen. It is fairly large. My
system fonts are significantly smaller, which is perfectly OK because
I'm not reading paragraphs of text at that size, mostly just word
snippets. I am familiar enough with the apps I use where I don't really
need to read much that's in the GUI, anyway.

Both my browser default and system fonts are sized appropriately for
their designated purposes. They are not interchangeable.

I hope you don't next suggest I lower my screen resolution so I'll be
more like the masses... that would be wrong, too.

I won't suggest you anything, personally. I haven't intended it even
before. The problem you have is easily manageable by authors if they
include alternate style where they don't change the default user
font for the main content part (at least) - this is related to font
face available glyphs and internationalization (as discussed in past
threads), also.

--
Stanimir

[kchayka]

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

The 'message-box' font
is meant that it would be enough large for the user to read it...
As is the browser default text size, no? The difference is that the
browser default is specific to that app, whereas message-box is general
purpose and is not necessarily optimal for all text in all apps. If I
had to use that size in my word processor, I'd have the document zoom
permanently set to 125%.
and again: although it is probably not your preferred font for
reading web pages. It is far more acceptable than decreasing (using
percentages) any undefined/unknown (for the author) user default
font size.

Haven't I just shown that the message-box font is also undefined/unknown
(to the author)?

Those users who don't know about changing their browser settings
probably won't change system fonts either, except perhaps as a side
effect of changing desktop themes. Those who are savvy will do whatever
works best for them, for both browser and system fonts. The two fonts
are independent of each other, guessing percentage values for one is not
necessarily any more reliable than the other.

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

kchayka wrote:

Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:

The 'message-box' font
is meant that it would be enough large for the user to read it...
As is the browser default text size, no? The difference is that the
browser default is specific to that app, whereas message-box is general
purpose and is not necessarily optimal for all text in all apps. If I
had to use that size in my word processor, I'd have the document zoom
permanently set to 125%.

See my last comment below.

and again: although it is probably not your preferred font for
reading web pages. It is far more acceptable than decreasing (using
percentages) any undefined/unknown (for the author) user default
font size.

Haven't I just shown that the message-box font is also undefined/unknown
(to the author)?

Yes, what about it? The default user browser font is unknow to the
author, also. See my last comment.
Those users who don't know about changing their browser settings
probably won't change system fonts either,
Pretty wrong (at least it is just your) assumption.
except perhaps as a side
effect of changing desktop themes. Those who are savvy will do whatever
works best for them, for both browser and system fonts. The two fonts
are independent of each other, guessing percentage values for one is not
necessarily any more reliable than the other.
The point is that both - the default font for the browser and the
'message-box' font are known to be at sizes readable for the user.
Using descreased font size from the base of any of these or other
user defaults is far worse than using any of the defaults.

You can't make assumption that the 'message-box' font is generally
smaller than all other default application fonts, for everybody (on
every user's machine) - it could be even larger. The text on the
page
<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html>
Bob Osola have pointer is about two times smaller than my
'message-box' font - that's what I'm pointing.

What I'm suggesting for "small fonts lover" people who wish to alter
the default font/font size anyway is to use just more sane approach.

And again (I'm quoting myself):
The problem you have is easily manageable by authors if they include
alternate style where they don't change the default user font for
the main content part (at least) - this is related to font face
available glyphs and internationalization (as discussed in past
threads), also.

I can't understand what you're trying to convince me, still.

--
Stanimir