Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
I have a feeling it is... My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into a
block that spans the whole containing element. I would like the <a> to
appear next to the title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen
readers and heading-level navigation etc etc)
So... is it acceptable to do this:
<span><h3>Some title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop">back to
top</a></span>
Or does nesting the <h3> in a <span> do something horrible to the document
structure?
Comments, please! :)
P. 24  2030 
"The Plankmeister" <pl******************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f***********************@dread11.news.tele.d k... Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
I have a feeling it is... My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into
a block that spans the whole containing element. I would like the <a> to
appear next to the title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen
readers and heading-level navigation etc etc)
So... is it acceptable to do this:
<span><h3>Some title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop">back to
top</a></span>
I haven't confirmed this in the spec, but I think <h3> is NOT an inline
element, so using span would be incorrect. A better solution might be:
<div class="myheading3">
<h3>Hello World</h3>
<a href="#pagetop" class="toplink">back to top</a>
</div>
Putting the <a> in the <h3> is most likely incorrect semantics.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Peter Foti
The Plankmeister wrote: Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
I have a feeling it is...
I'd say so, as the 'back to top' text isn't part of the header.
My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into a block that spans the
whole containing element. I would like the <a> to appear next to the
title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen readers and
heading-level navigation etc etc)
So... is it acceptable to do this:
<span><h3>Some title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop">back to
top</a></span>
Or does nesting the <h3> in a <span> do something horrible to the document
structure?
<span> elements cannot contain block-level elements, so you'd get a
validation error immediately upon opening the <h3> element (with XHTML), or
when you attempt to close the <span> element (with HTML).
In practice, I wouldn't be surprised if you had difficulty styling things
the way you want in some browsers, as the <h3> element wouldn't be within
the <span> element as you intend.
Use a <div> element in place of the <span> element, and you should be fine.
An even better approach would be to pick a more suitable element, but
without knowing the context, I can't suggest one (and there may not even be
one).
--
Jim Dabell
"The Plankmeister" <pl******************@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:3f***********************@dread11.news.tele.d k... Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
I have a feeling it is... My problem is I'm using CSS to style the H3 into
a block that spans the whole containing element. I would like the <a> to
appear next to the title, but I'm sure this is bad practice (for screen
readers and heading-level navigation etc etc)
So... is it acceptable to do this:
<span><h3>Some title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop">back to
top</a></span>
Or does nesting the <h3> in a <span> do something horrible to the document
structure?
Comments, please! :)
P.
<h3><span>Some title or other...</span></h3>
<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a>
Or is this not what you want?
--
With regards,
Samuël van Laere
the Netherlands http://samuel.phpindex.nl
"The Plankmeister" <pl******************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f***********************@dread11.news.tele.d k... Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
How about removing the "back to top" altogether? Most user agents support a
way to return to the top of the page with ease.
Jonathan
-- http://www.snook.ca/
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:33:40 GMT, in comp.infosystems. www.authoring.html,
Jonathan Snook wrote: Is doing this bad:
<h3>Some title or other...<a href="#pagetop">back to top</a></h3>
How about removing the "back to top" altogether? Most user agents support a
way to return to the top of the page with ease.
Yeah, did everyone forgot what the "home" key is for ?
I've never understood theses website with links to places where we can
easily go by ourselves: "back" links with a javascript :history(-1),
"top" links like this one, etc..
(followup to authoring.html, no stylesheets here)
--
++++++++ Zelda, Dragon Ball, Mana and my (art)work at www.salagir.com ++++++++
Pas de violence, c'est les vacances !
The Plankmeister wrote: Is doing this bad:
<span><h3>Some title or other...</h3><a href="#pagetop">back to
top</a></span>
"Back to top" links don't make sense in the context of HTML. They are
especially worse inside a heading, but that's just on top. So yes it's
sort of bad, if you care about HTML, accessibility, usability etc.
--
Google Blogoscoped http://blog.outer-court.com
> "Back to top" links don't make sense in the context of HTML. They are especially worse inside a heading, but that's just on top. So yes it's
sort of bad, if you care about HTML, accessibility, usability etc.
With that in mind... I'll get rid of it. As somebody said... "Use the home
key!"
I dont want to come across as daft here, but I think I am missing something
in this thread...
I've followed the various arguments and I've come to a definate conclusion
that it is more comfortable on the fence! I didnt spot a clear winner.
Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage. Yet from this
thread, I'm expecting to find a key that takes me to the top of the current
page... but I dont. There is of course the Refresh key, but that isn't a
suitable substitute - it would play havoc with some ASP/PHP pages, and some
other pages too.
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood the question or the answers....!
Cheers
Chris
"The Plankmeister" <pl******************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f***********************@dread15.news.tele.d k... "Back to top" links don't make sense in the context of HTML. They are
especially worse inside a heading, but that's just on top. So yes it's
sort of bad, if you care about HTML, accessibility, usability etc.
With that in mind... I'll get rid of it. As somebody said... "Use the home
key!"
CJM wrote: Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage.
It's not the UA we're talking about, it's a much simpler feature:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
It works exactly like the "End" key, just the other way round. And
there's also PgUp and PgDown keys to jump one page (more or less) up or
down, respectively.
Amazing, isn't it?
Matthias
CJM wrote:
Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The
only Home key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my
homepage. Yet from this thread, I'm expecting to find a key that
takes me to the top of the current page... but I dont.
When I want to be taken to the top of the page in my browser* I press
Strg+Pos1, which I believe translates to Ctrl+Home on US-keyboards.
Just pressing "Pos1" takes me to the beginning of a line. Ctrl + <-
(left-arrow) takes me to the beginning of the last word.
*This shortcut also works in my text-editor, in Word-Documents, in the
current Window I'm typing in, and so on. It's a standardized GUI
feature on my Windows machine. Speficially it works in all applications
regardless of whether there's "To top of page" buttons, which seems
this makes it a shortcut helpful to know about.
--
Google Blogoscoped http://blog.outer-court.com
"CJM" <cj*****@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage. Yet from this
thread, I'm expecting to find a key that takes me to the top of the current
page... but I dont.
Not a 'Home ' key on the UA interface, but one on the keyboard.
There will be some variation between browsers/operating
systems/keyboards but frequently you will find that:
Home - jumps to top of the page
Page Up - scrolls up one screen
Page Down - scrolls down one screen (as does the space bar)
End - jumps to the bottom of the page
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
"Matthias Gutfeldt" <sa************@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:bn************@ID-16734.news.uni-berlin.de...
It's not the UA we're talking about, it's a much simpler feature:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Seems it's not the only 'simpler' thing around here.
It works exactly like the "End" key, just the other way round. And
there's also PgUp and PgDown keys to jump one page (more or less) up or
down, respectively.
Amazing, isn't it?
It is. I've seen them there but always wondered what they are for...!
Joking aside... I never use Home/End and I had forgotten about them.
You re-learn something every day...as they say...
Cheers
Matthias Gutfeldt <sa************@gmx.net> exclaimed in <bn************@id-16734.news.uni-berlin.de>: CJM wrote: Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage.
It's not the UA we're talking about, it's a much simpler feature:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Why this insistence on making assumptions regarding the physical
methods a person use to access a website ?
With the fact that I'm stepping on toes, again, firmly in mind I'll
suggest this to you:
I am currently browsing the emminent website http://www.css.nu/
using PocketLink for the Palm. I'm on a Tungsten, and so have Bluetooth
connected to our LAN, and from there out through ADSL. It's what you might
call a rather modern setup.
There is a 'Home' function in the UA. It goes to a specific point
in the history-stack; not to the top of the document. There is no
'Home' button on the keyboard.
However, thanks to the authors I have a good choice of "Return to top"
links which I find highly useful. It is making the website more
accessible to me.
According to you I should just press the "Home" button on the keyboard
instead, huh ? Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way
of accessing the web that it isn't a good example ?
In some applications, the 'Home' button on the keyboard goes to the
start of a line. In some, to the start of the buffer. IF that key
exist[1]. Or isn't programmed to do something else.
If you want to include ways for your visitors to navigate inside a
document, then include a link for them to do so. If you DON'T want to
include that, fine. Don't.
[1]
Or is there a law against using Sun type 3 keyboards all of a sudden ?
--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies ti**@greytower.net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905
[top-posting fixed; please don't top-post]
CJM wrote: "The Plankmeister" <pl******************@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f***********************@dread15.news.tele.d k...
"Back to top" links don't make sense in the context of HTML.
With that in mind... I'll get rid of it. As somebody said... "Use the home
key!"
one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage.
That's a "home" button. Does your keyboard have a key labeled "home?"
Mine does. Pressing it in either Opera 7 or Mozilla 1.3 causes the
page to jump to the top.
--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me
Tina Holmboe wrote:
I am currently browsing the emminent website http://www.css.nu/
using PocketLink for the Palm. I'm on a Tungsten, and so have
Bluetooth connected to our LAN, and from there out through ADSL.
It's what you might call a rather modern setup.
There is a 'Home' function in the UA. It goes to a specific point
in the history-stack; not to the top of the document. There is no
'Home' button on the keyboard.
The browser you describe seems to be both exotic and broken. That's a
bad combination.
HTML authors usually make pages for browsers with a solid interface
supporting the most basic navigation. Plus, they might enhance the page
for the most popular browsers using workarounds. Rarely have I seen
anyone doing workarounds for an exotic browser which doesn't come with
an optimal interface. As seems to be the case here. Especially if the
workaround hurt the more common browsing situations. (I find the "Top
to document" -- right, whatever you may call them -- annyoing, simply
because they clutter the page. The less unnecessary links I need to
skip, the faster I can read what I'm actually interested in... which is
certainly not the navigation.)
--
Google Blogoscoped http://blog.outer-court.com
Tina Holmboe wrote: Matthias Gutfeldt <sa************@gmx.net> exclaimed in
<bn************@id-16734.news.uni-berlin.de>:
CJM wrote: Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only
Home key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage.
It's not the UA we're talking about, it's a much simpler feature:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Why this insistence on making assumptions regarding the physical
methods a person use to access a website ?
I don't see that. In this thread, the Home key has been mentioned several
times, and each time it's been referring to a Home key situated on common
keyboard layouts, one that is commonly used to go to the beginning of a
document.
With the fact that I'm stepping on toes, again, firmly in mind I'll
suggest this to you:
I am currently browsing the emminent website http://www.css.nu/
using PocketLink for the Palm. I'm on a Tungsten, and so have Bluetooth
connected to our LAN, and from there out through ADSL. It's what you
might call a rather modern setup.
There is a 'Home' function in the UA. It goes to a specific point
in the history-stack; not to the top of the document. There is no
'Home' button on the keyboard.
However, thanks to the authors I have a good choice of "Return to top"
links which I find highly useful. It is making the website more
accessible to me.
According to you I should just press the "Home" button on the keyboard
instead, huh ? Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way
of accessing the web that it isn't a good example ?
In my opinion, your user-agent is deficient. It wouldn't be hard to
implement a "back to top" feature, and it's a common required behaviour as
you demonstrate yourself. Given that the vast majority of user-agents in
use support this feature by themselves, having a special workaround for
your user-agent is exactly that - a special workaround. Given that some
peopel have already expressed the opinion that they get in the way,
including this workaround for a class of users that are quite rare is a
pretty bad idea.
Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way of accessing the
web that it isn't a good example ?
[snip]
I'm sure if Internet Explorer on Windows was deficient in this way, people
would implement the workaround on many more websites; as things stand, only
very popular user-agents can demand this kind of attention.
--
Jim Dabell
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tina Holmboe wrote: Matthias Gutfeldt <sa************@gmx.net> exclaimed in
<bn************@id-16734.news.uni-berlin.de>:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Why this insistence on making assumptions regarding the physical
methods a person use to access a website ?
Seems to me that Matthias was simply giving an explanation for
something that had come up in earlier discussion, about the UA
function in quite a number of browsers (even Lynx) for the keyboard
key which is labelled "Home". If you haven't got one, then the
explanation isn't applicable to you: fine. There are plenty of other
ways that user agents can implement such actions. Might be a stylus
gesture, whatever.
I am currently browsing the emminent website http://www.css.nu/
using PocketLink for the Palm. I'm on a Tungsten, and so have Bluetooth
connected to our LAN, and from there out through ADSL. It's what you might
call a rather modern setup.
My attempt to get some information about it led me to
www.mdevelop.com, which kindly presented with with:
500 Servlet Exception
java.lang.NullPointerException
at _products__jsp._jspService(D:\web_root\mdevelop\pr oducts.jsp:227)
at com.caucho.jsp.JavaPage.service(JavaPage.java:75)
at com.caucho.jsp.Page.subservice(Page.java:506)
[etc. etc.]
I think they have a bit of developing to do themselves :-}
There is a 'Home' function in the UA. It goes to a specific point
in the history-stack; not to the top of the document. There is no
'Home' button on the keyboard.
Seems you're trying to obfuscate the point, or maybe to register some
kind of protest between the now-popular meaning of the term "Home" in
a web context, and the fact that the particular browser under
discussion uses the keyboard's "Home" key to mean "top of document",
as indeed do several other browsers (but you assumably know this
already).
However, thanks to the authors I have a good choice of "Return to top"
You're telling us in a back-handed way that you don't think your
browser has a specific UA for top-of-document. I'd tend to rate that
as a UA shortcoming, rather than anything calling for extra
author-supplied furniture, to be honest.
Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way
of accessing the web that it isn't a good example ?
I think you're attacking the wrong issue, but then, that's up to you
really, it's a free forum.
If you want to include ways for your visitors to navigate inside a
document, then include a link for them to do so. If you DON'T want to
include that, fine. Don't.
I'll link them to topics where it seems appropriate (irrespective of
where those topics are on the page), because topics are what I write,
and topics are what I'd want to refer them to.
Top (and bottom, and sides) of the page is an artefact of the
rendering; there's no content-related reason I'd want to send them
there - if they want to go there, then that's between them and their
browser. Is the way I interpret it.
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> exclaimed in <Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.a c.uk>: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tina Holmboe wrote:
Matthias Gutfeldt <sa************@gmx.net> exclaimed in
<bn************@id-16734.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Why this insistence on making assumptions regarding the physical
methods a person use to access a website ?
Seems to me that Matthias was simply giving an explanation for
something that had come up in earlier discussion, about the UA
function in quite a number of browsers (even Lynx) for the keyboard
key which is labelled "Home". If you haven't got one, then the
See, here is the problem. If you don't have an input method which has
a key labelled "Home", then there is no way you can "press" that key;
even if it is quite possible that the UA has SOME other way of going to the
start of the document.
But: firstly we assume that the UA has a method of navigating to one
particular internal point in the document. We are not talking about
reloading it, but navigating it. This might be a subtle difference,
yet it *is* a difference.
Secondly, we - or rather Matthias did - assume that this abovementioned
method is connected to a very specific, physical, device - a keyboard
with a "Home" key.
If I am running Netscape - which has such an internal navigational
method - on a Sun 3/50, there is no "Home" key with which to activate
the function[1]; and as far as I know there is no other key combination
in Netscape that does the same. I might be mistaken.
But the bottom line is really elsewhere: navigation inside the document
is not an UA task; but a *document* task.
I see clearly that many believe that "Start of document" is a specific,
almost physical, point relating, presumably, to "the first byte of the
file" or something similar.
But "start of document" not might be the first byte in what happens to
be a file. That may be a common *use*, just as it may be common to
call it "top of page".
I consider "start of document" to be a matter of internal navigation
in a document; and something that an author might want to provide for
the reader. It enhances accessibility - to some; like everything else.
There is a 'Home' function in the UA. It goes to a specific point
in the history-stack; not to the top of the document. There is no
'Home' button on the keyboard.
Seems you're trying to obfuscate the point, or maybe to register some
kind of protest between the now-popular meaning of the term "Home" in
a web context, and the fact that the particular browser under
No, I'm not obfuscating. I am pointing out, by example, that there are
different physical realities out there. We shouldn't go around assuming
so much.
It seems to me people are doing too much of that lately.
Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way
of accessing the web that it isn't a good example ?
I think you're attacking the wrong issue, but then, that's up to you
really, it's a free forum.
The issue I'd like to attack is what seems to me a refocus of accessibility
to mean
"I don't like solution X, subsequently it is bad for accessibility"
I've seen some of the same on the WAI-IG list as well as in "real life";
one of our main "competitors" in Sweden are experts in the technique.
Top (and bottom, and sides) of the page is an artefact of the
rendering; there's no content-related reason I'd want to send them
there - if they want to go there, then that's between them and their
browser. Is the way I interpret it.
And I agree.
But I disagree in that "beginning of document" or "start of document"
is related to the rendering.
This is a little like saying that we're not going to include - as some
do - tabs in binders so that people can more efficiently find the first
chapter, or the introduction, or similar. When they compain, we'll just
tell them that if they can't find it by flipping their thumbs they'll
just need to get new thumbs.
Consider a document which starts with navigation. A link on the top - which
I have been told is bad for accessibility too - gives the user the means
to skip over the navigation (this is GREAT on PDAs and voice browsers) and
get to the main content.
You get halfway through the document, and want to go to the top. You press
"Home" - assuming you have one, the UA has the function, and soforth - and
you end up ... above the navigation. Which isn't where you wanted to go.
Including a link to where the content starts, on the hand, mean that the
user can navigate more easily in a structure the UA doesn't know anything
about.
Using whatever physical means to entice the UA to do whatever it needs
to do to manipulate its viewport to be at a certain point in the stream
of bytes that make up a file has nothing to do with creating in-document
navigational links.
Is the way I see it.
[1]
Unless I have replaced the type 3 keyboard.
--
- Tina Holmboe Greytower Technologies ti**@greytower.net http://www.greytower.net/
[+46] 0708 557 905
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tina Holmboe wrote: "Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> exclaimed in <Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.a c.uk>:
Seems to me that Matthias was simply giving an explanation for
something that had come up in earlier discussion, about the UA
function in quite a number of browsers (even Lynx) for the keyboard
key which is labelled "Home". If you haven't got one, then the
[answer isn't addressed to you]
See, here is the problem.
No problem here until you make one...
If you don't have an input method which has
a key labelled "Home", then there is no way you can "press" that key;
Then you're in no need of Matthias's explanation.
even if it is quite possible that the UA has SOME other way of going to the
start of the document.
Right. I didn't think that was in dispute?
But: firstly we assume that the UA has a method of navigating to one
particular internal point in the document. We are not talking about
reloading it, but navigating it. This might be a subtle difference,
yet it *is* a difference.
Why don't you find the right place in the thread to mount your attack?
Matthias was only offering an answer (an appropriate one, as far as I
could see) to a specific question. I don't see any justification for
you to attack him, when your issue is a more general one
Secondly, we - or rather Matthias did - assume that this abovementioned
method is connected to a very specific, physical, device - a keyboard
with a "Home" key.
That was predicated by the question that was asked, and which Matthias
answered.
If I am running Netscape - which has such an internal navigational
method - on a Sun 3/50, there is no "Home" key with which to activate
the function[1]; and as far as I know there is no other key combination
in Netscape that does the same. I might be mistaken.
I suppose there is that possibility, yes... but that wasn't the
question that Matthias was answering, was it?
But the bottom line is really elsewhere: navigation inside the document
is not an UA task; but a *document* task.
If you make that content-oriented, then I've already agreed.
I see clearly that many believe that "Start of document" is a specific,
almost physical, point relating, presumably, to "the first byte of the
file" or something similar.
You can see that? Well...
I consider "start of document" to be a matter of internal navigation
in a document; and something that an author might want to provide for
the reader. It enhances accessibility - to some; like everything else.
That rather depends on what's at the top, doesn't it?
I am pointing out, by example, that there are
different physical realities out there. We shouldn't go around assuming
so much.
I say again, Matthias offered an explanation based on the situation
that was predicated by the questioner. Your attack could be well
founded if you could find the right place to mount it, but I've seen
little justification for your choice of mount point...
It seems to me people are doing too much of that lately.
That may very well be. I look forward to seeing you attack the
appropriate targets.
You get halfway through the document, and want to go to the top. You press
"Home" - assuming you have one, the UA has the function, and soforth - and
you end up ... above the navigation.
Actually my navigation is in the <link...> tags, and at the end.
Which isn't where you wanted to go.
Right, which is why I'd say that content-related links are good,
position-on-page-related links are unhelpful.
[1]
Unless I have replaced the type 3 keyboard.
"mouse gestures", then! :-}
Isn't there some emerging 'standard' that uses a browser's nav bar (any
browser ought to have this)? Eg, Opera has one that works with Slashdot.
Something like <link rel="search"...>, previous, up, home, etc.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:41:23 +0200, The Plankmeister wrote: With that in mind... I'll get rid of it. As somebody said... "Use the home
key!"
--
..
"Tina Holmboe" <ti**@greytower.net> wrote in message
news:Bf*******************@newsb.telia.net... You get halfway through the document, and want to go to the top. You
press "Home" - assuming you have one, the UA has the function, and soforth -
and you end up ... above the navigation. Which isn't where you wanted to go.
I would think it unusual that a user would want to return to the beginning
of a document. Most "top of page" links send the user to the navigation so
that they can either select another portion of the current document or move
to another document (since the navigation normally appears at the top of the
document).
Jonathan
-- http://www.snook.ca/
Tina Holmboe wrote: Matthias Gutfeldt <sa************@gmx.net> exclaimed in <bn************@id-16734.news.uni-berlin.de>:
CJM wrote:
Regardless, one thing that puzzles me is the 'Home key' issue. The only Home
key I have on my UA is the one that returns me to my homepage.
It's not the UA we're talking about, it's a much simpler feature:
The "Home" key on your keyboard.
Why this insistence on making assumptions regarding the physical
methods a person use to access a website ?
CJM is using a keyboard. And you're barking up the wrong tree.
Matthias
Tina Holmboe wrote:
But the bottom line is really elsewhere: navigation inside the
document is not an UA task; but a document task.
That would the bottom line of people who:
- Redesign the scroll-bar in documents (redesign, or simply hide it)
- Use Flash to deliver an "optimized" document-navigation interface
- Well yes, and for those who offer "top to document" links... because
those are _usually_ (you seem to be an exception) the same people who
open links in new windows, tell people that scrolling is bad, etc.
- etc.
But "start of document" not might be the first byte in what happens
to be a file. That may be a common use, just as it may be common to
call it "top of page".
Yes. And you know what? Every document has a start*. So it's completely
redundant to point to it. Authors should not include redundant
information.
*And end. And middle. Do you want to point to those too?
I consider "start of document" to be a matter of internal navigation
in a document; and something that an author might want to provide
for the reader. It enhances accessibility - to some; like
everything else.
No. "Everything else" is mostly not an issue where some people tell it
decreases their accessibility because it clutters the page, looks silly
in printing, etc.
_Ideally_, link semantics are working in a way that when you remove the
linking feature, the text flow will stay intact. E.g. if I write:
"The painter Leonardo was doing paintings in the Renaissance..."
-> then I can make links of "Leonardo", "Paintings", and "Renaissance".
But the sentence makes sense without the links as well.
In how far does "Beginning of document" make sense without being a
link? It doesn't.
And to take a linked table-of-content at the beginning of the page
(which has been used as analogy): Yes, it does make sense without being
linked. It's a readable introduction that doesn't need to be clicked on
to offer value.
But I disagree in that "beginning of document" or "start of
document" is related to the rendering.
It's not directly, you're right, but it's mentioning a formal/
structural issue instead of a contentual one. In other words it's
mentioning information inherent in the document transmitted; it's
redundant (even a single "Top" link, even though there's usually dozens
of them once the concept is applied, which shows how broken it is)...
and therefore must be handled by a solid interface.
My bottom-line: let the user interface handle what it can (and most
commonly does, too). And don't clutter the document with "Beginning of
document"-whatever-you-may-call-them links.
Consider a document which starts with navigation. A link on the top
- which I have been told is bad for accessibility too - gives the
user the means to skip over the navigation (this is GREAT on PDAs
and voice browsers) and get to the main content.
You get halfway through the document, and want to go to the top.
You press "Home" - assuming you have one, the UA has the function,
and soforth - and you end up ... above the navigation. Which isn't
where you wanted to go.
Funny. I press my back-key and it takes me exactly to where I want to
be. To the navigation at the top of the document, just to the point
where I scrolled down. That's Internet Explorer, not the most exotic
browser out there. I think you're constructing problems where there are
none to support your argument for a need of "Beginning"-links.
--
Google Blogoscoped http://blog.outer-court.com
"Tina Holmboe" <ti**@greytower.net> wrote in message
news:dG*******************@newsb.telia.net...
According to you I should just press the "Home" button on the keyboard
instead, huh ? Or is this simply such an esoteric, or specialized, way
of accessing the web that it isn't a good example ?
According to me?
Hey, I'm firmly ensconsed on the fence here, Tina...!
Chris
[...sticking his head back below the parapet again] This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
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