By using this site, you agree to our updated Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Manage your Cookies Settings.
437,724 Members | 1,655 Online
Bytes IT Community
+ Ask a Question
Need help? Post your question and get tips & solutions from a community of 437,724 IT Pros & Developers. It's quick & easy.

table background problem, help?

P: n/a
I'm trying to get this page to look the same in Netscape and IE.

I have a box that says 'Upcoming Events' on the lower left of the
page. It's supposed to have a gray background, but in NS 4.x it won't show
up:

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/

I'm also running into the same problem I think at the top, where I have a
navigation bar running horizontally that says 'about us' 'donate' (etc.) -
I want the blue background to span the entire width of the table, and it
doesn't do that in NS 4.x.

Both of these work well in IE though.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Holly
Jul 20 '05 #1
Share this Question
Share on Google+
15 Replies


P: n/a
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Holly wrote:
I'm trying to get this page to look the same in Netscape and IE.
Why? (that's a serious question)
And what's "Netscape"? (that's another)
I have a box that says 'Upcoming Events' on the lower left of the
page. It's supposed to have a gray background, but in NS 4.x it won't show
up:

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/
You have IMHO far more serious problems to address. Your page is very
inflexible, and fails to even approach being valid HTML. It's
composed by last century's misguided wannabe-DTP-pseudo-HTML.

Whoever taught you how to do this stuff has seriously let you down.
Stick around the HTML and stylesheets group for a while, get the
general temperature, I'm sure you'll grasp the general feelings.
Both of these work well in IE though.


That's always a warning sign. IE is (for the most part) reasonably
capable of browsing a page that's been designed for the WWW, but the
converse is emphatically not true - a page that has been designed
specifically for IE is almost guaranteed to cause problems on
WWW-conforming browsers.
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk>...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Holly wrote:
I'm trying to get this page to look the same in Netscape and IE. [snip] I have a box that says 'Upcoming Events' on the lower left of the
page. It's supposed to have a gray background, but in NS 4.x it won't show
up:
http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/


You have IMHO far more serious problems to address. Your page is very
inflexible, and fails to even approach being valid HTML. It's
composed by last century's misguided wannabe-DTP-pseudo-HTML.

[snip]

That page used table-layout, and was therefore incapable of DTP-like
precision. Tables simply don't behave like that. They tend to adapt to
their contents, and the user's viewing conditions, despite any
author's attempts to control them.

Modern experts who want pixel-precision, approaching DTP-like
fixed-width properties, use tableless-layout via CSS.

Here is some discussion of the topic:

http://photomatt.net/archives/2003/1...width-designs/
http://www.notestips.com/80256B3A007F2692/1/TAIO-5TT34F

Here are some very attractive fixed-width designs:

http://www.nozzon.com/testing/new.asp

http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=100%2F100%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=098%2F098%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=096%2F096%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=095%2F095%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=092%2F092%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=091%2F091%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=089%2F089%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=087%2F087%2Ecss
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=003%2F003%2Ecss

There are good arguments against fixed-width designs. But there isn't
a consensus. And this has nothing to do with "20th century versus 21st
century". Nor about "old versus modern" recommendations. Nor about
"table-layout versus tableless-layout", except that only
tableless-layout can truly achieve fixed-width layout.

It is worth separating out these different aspects of page layout, so
that they can be evaluated independently.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
If anyone has any idea how to work around this problem, that would be
great. This page must work in old versions of Netscape (4.x) because some
of the audience uses it and no one can be excluded.

Thanks for your help!

Holly
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
In article <c6**********@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Holly <me@nospam.edu> wrote:
If anyone has any idea how to work around this problem, that would be
great.
What problem? You didn't quote any of the previous discussion.
This page must work in old versions of Netscape (4.x) because some
of the audience uses it and no one can be excluded.


What do you think "work" means?

If you expect the page to "look the same" in NN4 as in modern browsers,
then you're pretty much stuck with presentational markup (a la HTML 3.2).

But if you embrace the idea that a page can look different in different
browsers, and use a simple trick or two to hide your CSS from buggy,
obsolete browsers, then even the most CSS-rich page can be perfectly
accessible (albeit not as pretty) in NN4.

See http://w3development.de/css/hide_css_from_browsers/
--
Darin McGrew, da***@TheRallyeClub.org, http://www.TheRallyeClub.org/
A gimmick car rallye is not a race, but a fun puzzle testing your
ability to follow instructions. Upcoming gimmick car rallye in
Silicon Valley: Starsky & Hutch (Saturday, May 1)
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
Holly wrote:
If anyone has any idea how to work around this problem, that would be
great. This page must work in old versions of Netscape (4.x) because some
of the audience uses it and no one can be excluded.

Thanks for your help!

Holly


I might be able to help IF I knew the problem. Not including some
reference doesn't work. I sort by date/time instead of by thread. It's
quite possible, probable even that, as in this case, I see a reply never
having seen the original.

--
Stan McCann
Tularosa Basin chapter ABATE of NM Cooordinator, Alamogordo, NM
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :(
http://surecann.com/Dcp_2068c.jpg
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
I'm sorry, I should have included my original question... my bad! I should
know better on usenet.

The problem I'm having that I hope someone more experienced than me can
help with, is that I have this page where some table backgrounds aren't
showing up in NS 4.x but they do work in IE.

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/

The table background in the lower left that says 'upcoming events' is
supposed to be gray... what can I do so that NS will see it?

Thanks everyone, for your help. I am learning a great deal and appreciate
any and all advice. I'm also reading up on the advice for CSS and how this
page is clunky so I am hoping to solve those issues, but right now I need
to solve this one particular problem (and fast!).

Thanks!
Holly

Stan McCann <st**@surecann.com> wrote:
: I might be able to help IF I knew the problem. Not including some
: reference doesn't work. I sort by date/time instead of by thread. It's
: quite possible, probable even that, as in this case, I see a reply never
: having seen the original.
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

Holly wrote:
The problem I'm having that I hope someone more experienced than me can
help with, is that I have this page where some table backgrounds aren't
showing up in NS 4.x but they do work in IE.

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/


Did you read A. Flavell's response? It seems that you didn't take any of
his advice. Noone can help you until you help yourself, and you can
start to help yourself by validating your code.

http://validator.w3.org/

Actually, you need to rethink the table layout/font tags stuff. Start
with some basic html, and then think about the presentation.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Holly wrote:
I'm sorry, I should have included my original question... my bad! I should
know better on usenet.

The problem I'm having that I hope someone more experienced than me can
help with, is that I have this page where some table backgrounds aren't
showing up in NS 4.x but they do work in IE.

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/

The table background in the lower left that says 'upcoming events' is
supposed to be gray... what can I do so that NS will see it?


I can't believe I'm saying this but try replacing the <div
align="center"> with a <center> tag.

BTW, it also displays correctly in Mozilla 1.6.

--
Stan McCann
Tularosa Basin chapter ABATE of NM Cooordinator, Alamogordo, NM
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :(
http://surecann.com/Dcp_2068c.jpg
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
I did read all the advice - I know it looks like I didn't take it because
I didn't do any of it yet but I will... am crunched up against many
deadlines so I've been juggling my tasks kindof clumsily. But all the
advice is appreciated and didn't go to waste! I do want this page to be
validated and conform to updated standards.

Holly

Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
: Did you read A. Flavell's response? It seems that you didn't take any of
: his advice. Noone can help you until you help yourself, and you can
: start to help yourself by validating your code.

: http://validator.w3.org/

: Actually, you need to rethink the table layout/font tags stuff. Start
: with some basic html, and then think about the presentation.
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
Thanks for checking!

I just found out what would work. Not that this is a graceful way... but
using an image for the table background instead of just the hex code did
it:

http://www.wavian.com/clients/pugwash/

Now I have to work on everything else it needs. Hopefully this will help
someone else in the future (when table backgrounds do not show up in older
versions of Netscape).

Holly
: I can't believe I'm saying this but try replacing the <div
: align="center"> with a <center> tag.

: BTW, it also displays correctly in Mozilla 1.6.
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
Holly wrote:
I did read all the advice - I know it looks like I didn't take it
It looks like you still haven't taken it, because you continue to top-post.

How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

Does that look familiar? The same link was in my last post in this
thread. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to actually *read* it. Otherwise, it
seems I'm wasting my time.
Brian wrote
Did you read A. Flavell's response? It seems that you didn't take
any of his advice. Noone can help you until you help yourself, and
you can start to help yourself by validating your code.

http://validator.w3.org/
I didn't do any of it yet but I will... am crunched up against many
deadlines so I've been juggling my tasks kindof clumsily.


I can understand that you don't have time to learn html coding in a
new way and redo your page -- or perhaps your entire site -- in
the space of a few days. But here's the part that you don't seem to
understand: There's no easy way for us to help you until your code is
valid. I wrote an inadequate explanation to explain it, but decided
instead to point you to

http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

Don't be put off by the headline. Take the time to read it, and it will
hopefully be clear.

In any case, fixing the underlying html errors is almost certainly
better use of your time than getting background images to appear in your
tables in NN4.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
Brian wrote:
Actually, you need to rethink the table layout/font tags stuff. Start
with some basic html, and then think about the presentation.

Did you not read her statement that her pages must be viewable in NS
4.x? For that, there's not much other way. I really hated to have to
point her to the div tag that is causing her problem, but for NS 4.x, it
just won't work the way it's done. I told her to replace the div with a
center, but putting the align in the td would also do the trick.

Unfortunately, the world is not such that we can all use the latest and
greatest all of the time. I use HTML 4.01 Transitional and CSS1 and I
validate to that. I do so because some people still use old browsers
and I have found that I get satisfactory results with the standards I
use. YMMV.

--
Stan McCann
Tularosa Basin chapter ABATE of NM Cooordinator, Alamogordo, NM
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :(
http://surecann.com/Dcp_2068c.jpg
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004, Stan McCann wrote:
Brian wrote:
Actually, you need to rethink the table layout/font tags stuff. Start
with some basic html, and then think about the presentation.

Did you not read her statement that her pages must be viewable in NS
4.x?


"Viewable" does not necessarily mean "look the same", though.

Those who use an obsolete browser (and that includes me, at times)
don't have any right to expect ideal results. I'm keen to maintain
the results as "viewable", but I don't see how it can be worth going
much further than that.
Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
"Viewable" does not necessarily mean "look the same", though.

Those who use an obsolete browser (and that includes me, at times)
don't have any right to expect ideal results. I'm keen to maintain
the results as "viewable", but I don't see how it can be worth going
much further than that.


Correct. I was trying to be understanding of her needs. She was
looking for a quick fix that she could do with her limited knowledge.
She's expressed a desire to learn the proper ways of doing things but
was in a time crunch. Having been there, done that, I was trying to be
helpful to her circumstances.

--
Stan McCann
Tularosa Basin chapter ABATE of NM Cooordinator, Alamogordo, NM
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :(
http://surecann.com/Dcp_2068c.jpg
Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
Stan McCann wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
"Viewable" does not necessarily mean "look the same", though.

Those who use an obsolete browser (and that includes me, at times)
don't have any right to expect ideal results.


I was trying to be understanding of her needs. She was looking for a
quick fix that she could do with her limited knowledge.


That's understandable, but a different answer then, "it must work in
NN4." Practically any page with robust html[1] and no css will work in
that browser.

[1] that is, valid html 4 with all optional closing tags included

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #16

This discussion thread is closed

Replies have been disabled for this discussion.