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How to teach coworkers DIV & CSS?

P: n/a
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the
people we outsource things to, how we want it done.

I dug around alistapart but couldn't find anything complete enough. I
searched through the W3C, but could only find the standards, not how to
apply them in the desired way.

Does anyone have some handy links for me??? Replying them here might also be
helpful to other readers :)

Woolly
Jul 20 '05 #1
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40 Replies


P: n/a

"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote in message
news:40***********************@news.versatel.net.. .

These sites went some way:
http://www.webreference.com/authorin...yout/advanced/

http://www.yourhtmlsource.com/styles...csslayout.html

http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...aying_out.html

Any better finds?
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.


You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is only
a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics like P, H1,
H2, etc.

Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a

"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.0404201515420.13467-100000@s5b003...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.


You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is only
a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics like P, H1,
H2, etc.


http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/....html#edef-DIV
" The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.
These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV) but
impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors may use
these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang attribute, etc.,
to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes. "

IOW, DIV is appropriate for doing exactly what the OP wants to do.

-Karl
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a

"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.0404201515420.13467-100000@s5b003...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.
You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is only
a "last resort".


"This is an integral component of my document" is a perfectly meaningful use
of DIV, and the only semantic deficiency in using DIV is the one imposed by
using HTML in the first place instead of XML.
Rather use elements with defined semantics like P, H1,
H2, etc.


Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.44.0404201515420.13467-100000@s5b003...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.


You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is only
a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics like P, H1,
H2, etc.


Thanks for not answering my question... again.
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a

"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote in message
news:40***********************@news.versatel.net.. .
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the
people we outsource things to, how we want it done.


As someone who relies on a ton of outsourcing, I recommend NOT giving
production work to someone who doesn't understand what you want.
Your job isn't to teach people how to author CSS instead of tables.

I have a whole stable of freelancers I rely on for overflow work. If I need
something done in PHP, I don't call my .NET guy, even if he knows some PHP.
I call the best person for the job.
If your freelancers don't know CSS, then find someone who does.

-Karl
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a

"Karl Groves" <ka**@NOSPAMkarlcore.com> wrote in message
news:c6**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...

"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote in message
news:40***********************@news.versatel.net.. .
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the people we outsource things to, how we want it done.
As someone who relies on a ton of outsourcing, I recommend NOT giving
production work to someone who doesn't understand what you want.
Your job isn't to teach people how to author CSS instead of tables.

I have a whole stable of freelancers I rely on for overflow work. If I

need something done in PHP, I don't call my .NET guy, even if he knows some PHP. I call the best person for the job.
If your freelancers don't know CSS, then find someone who does.


I would if I had a choice. They're from <insert warzone here> and they have
to know what my boss promised our customers. It has to be outsourced to
them, and I doubt there are many more of "them" in <insert warzone here>. :)
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to
the people we outsource things to, how we want it done.
To avoid the diversions you have got so far, perhaps it is better to talk
about "tableless-layout"! I've seen arguments about whether or not it is
really about <div>s a number of times. They are really tactical.
I dug around alistapart but couldn't find anything complete enough. I
searched through the W3C, but could only find the standards, not how
to apply them in the desired way.
Where do you want to start? The frustration that I felt when learning how to
do tableless layout last year was that there didn't appear to be a systematic
"top-down method" for turning a layout concept into a combination of skeleton
HTML + positioning CSS. I'm used to using top-down methods.

The stuff in the web appears mainly to be about how to apply a portfolio of
known tricks, or reverse-engineering an existing page. If you were designing a
motor car or a computer package or a new building, I would hope that it could
be done using a systematic sequence of analysis that would gradually refine
the design from broad concepts to the fine detail. I didn't find that,
although perhaps it is there and I just missed it.
Does anyone have some handy links for me??? Replying them here might
also be helpful to other readers :)


I'll sketch out what I do, in the hope that it will either be useful to
others, or will cause people to identify the sort of tutorial I was after.
Since I normally produce a template that I then re-use many times, the trick
is to implement that template & its corresponding CSS.

I start by drawing boxes on paper, or via a computer package. (I've used
PowerPoint for the purpose). I try to draw the layout concept in the form of a
set of non-overlapping boxes. It can't always be done, but if it can you have
made a good start. This is really the "visual hierarchy".

It is necessary (perhaps unfortunately) to know the limitations of CSS2 to
draw the right sort boxes. The problem is that layout isn't simply about the
position of boxes on a page. (That is the easy bit!) It is also about their
styles, especially borders & backgrounds. Those screw up many attempts. How do
you draw boxes that reach down to the footer instead of stopping at the bottom
of the content of a sidebar? Etc.

These boxes eventually get turned into wrapping & nesting & sequencing of the
outer-level elements in the document. (The ones that often have IDs, because
they often exist just once per page). There may be about 5 to 10 of these.
(These also correspond to the cells of a simple layout table if you are using
tables. A simple layout table is just another way of managing the wrapping &
nesting & sequencing of the outer-level elements in the document. It isn't a
different concept).

I develop the skeleton HTML & corresponding CSS in parallel. (I have both of
them open in Dreamweaver, and keep switching between them. Unfortunately, at
this stage I often write the HTML directly rather than use WYSYWIG view,
because I can't afford ambiguity. But I expect this to change in future, as I
get to know MX2004 more). I tend to give the boxes diagnostic borders &
background colours, and I keep 5 browsers pointing at the skeleton page being
developed so that I can keep checking whether I am attempting something
impossible in one of the browsers.

I then gradually refine the details. It didn't matter at first that the
margins were several pixels adrift. Later it does. (Unfortunately, I've had
designs fail at this stage because I can't make browsers converge. It is,
surprise surprise, often the IE 5 box model that blows things apart).

I tend to find that what goes into those 5 to 10 boxes is much easier to
handle. Often, it is a matter of copying lots of stuff from other CSSs, to be
refined later.

I would be interested to know how others handle this initial stage? Or do
other people just "know" how to form the basic elements?

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
Karl Groves wrote:
"Andreas Prilop" wrote ...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to
develop a website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.


You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is
only a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics
like P, H1, H2, etc.


http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/....html#edef-DIV " The DIV
and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes,
offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.

IOW, DIV is appropriate for doing exactly what the OP wants to do.


Unless there is another, more appropriate, element at hand, which was A.
Prilop's point. I once came accross something like this on a news web page:

<table>
<tr><td>&bull; news item</td>
<td>&bull; news item</td><!-- etc. -->
</tr></table>

If the author of that page asked how to change this from table layout to
div + css, what advice should we give?

<div>&bull; news item</div>
<div>&bull; news item</div>

Ok, that's better than the original; instead of lying about the content
(calling it table when it is not), it says nothing. But it is hardly
optimal. How about the obvious?

<ul>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
</ul>

The point isn't to change from table layout to div + css. It is change
from table layout to appropriate markup, then use css to alter the
default presentation. If the markup has nothing specifically appriate,
then by all means, use div and span. But, as Prilop said, they should be
used only when nothing else fits the bill.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the
people we outsource things to, how we want it done.


The folks whom you outsource to need to know HTML, I'm afraid. The point
of tableless layout is not to replace all bogus table markup with div
markup. It is to replace bogus markup with the most appropriate markup
available. Sometimes, that will indeed be div. But quite often, it will
be something that actually has some meaning to uas. Here's something
from a restaurant website that I redid.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="600">
<tr>

<td width="260" valign="top"><strong><font face="Times New Roman"
color="#FFFFCC"><big><em><big>T.S.McHugh's</big></em></big></font>

Sure, on the new site, I could have used

<div>T.S.McHugh's</div>

and, with some css, made it look once again like a heading. This would
have advantages over the original site (lighter page, more flexible via
user stylesheet). But it is still not as good as it could be.

<h1>T.S.McHugh's</h1>

That's what I went with, because it is obviously a heading on the front
page of the new site (url in sig, in case you're curious). Now, it has
the advantages of the div markup (lighter page, more flexible), plus, it
provides more information to user agents: "here is the main heading,
this page is about T.S. McHugh's." Then, I applied css to the h1 to
change its appearance a bit.

In sum, I think the best answer to your question is to change the
question. "...how to develop a website using [proper html] and CSS,
instead of TABLES." And the first step is to learn what html is really
about. It isn't a dtp language. It is a structural markup language.
Here's a couple of sites on HTML that I like.

http://www.htmlhelp.com/
http://tranchant.plus.com/web/html-start
http://webtips.dan.info/

And the reference:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/

Do you want css references, too? I can't seem to locate a beginner's
tutorial. Didn't Eric Meyer have one? Well, perhaps a book might be useful?

_Eric Meyer on CSS_

Good luck.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
Brian wrote:
<ul>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
</ul>


Stupid stupid stupid. That's what I get for cut-and-paste laziness.
That should have been

<ul>
<li>news item</li>
<li>news item</li>
</ul>

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
In article <40***********************@news.versatel.net>,
"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the
people we outsource things to, how we want it done.


Here's one more you can add:

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (You can quick-review the entire tutorial
at http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html)

--
CC
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:53:00 -0400, Brian
<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
<ul>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
</ul>

That should have been
<ul>
<li>news item</li>
<li>news item</li>
</ul>


No bull!
Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
Neal wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Brian wrote:
<ul>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
</ul>


That should have been
<ul>
<li>news item</li>
<li>news item</li>
</ul>


No bull!


:-D (Man, I wish I had thought of that!)

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a

"Barry Pearson" <ne**@childsupportanalysis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j2*************@newsfe5-gui.server.ntli.net...
Woolly Mittens wrote:
--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/


Many thanks for your lengthy reply, but I really needed some links to
beginner's tutorials for the <insert warzone here> people who will be doing
a project for my boss.

Woolly
Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:38:04 -0400, Brian
<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
Neal wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Brian wrote:
<ul>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
<li>&bull; news item</li>
</ul>

That should have been
<ul>
<li>news item</li>
<li>news item</li>
</ul>


No bull!


:-D (Man, I wish I had thought of that!)


As Oscar Wilde would have said, "You will Brian, you will." :)
Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a

"CC Zona" <cc****@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cc**************************@netnews.comcast. net...
Here's one more you can add:

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (You can quick-review the entire tutorial at http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html)


Thank you ever so much. You're the first one to actually answer the question
instead of endlessly discussing the semantics of the question.

The site seems very useful to convince my coworkers to use CSS layout, I
hope the <insert warzone here> people can see past the colourful cartoonage
though.

And a note to all the people who replied in this thread. It's perfectly OK
to discuss the question, but please don't forget to answer it.

Greetings,
Woolly
Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
In article <40**********************@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote:
"CC Zona" <cc****@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cc**************************@netnews.comcast. net...
Here's one more you can add:

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/ (You can quick-review the entire

tutorial
at http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/everything.html)


Thank you ever so much. You're the first one to actually answer the question
instead of endlessly discussing the semantics of the question.

The site seems very useful to convince my coworkers to use CSS layout, I
hope the <insert warzone here> people can see past the colourful cartoonage
though.


It's released under a Creative Commons license permitting derivative works,
so if the cartoons are inappropriate to your needs or you want to skip some
sections, you can distribute a modified version as long as it complies with
the license terms (attribution, etc.)

--
CC
Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
Barry Pearson wrote:
I would be interested to know how others handle this initial stage? Or do
other people just "know" how to form the basic elements?


Errr. Yeah, basically. I tend to start with plain text, mark up headings
and paragraphs, add inline links, emphasis and other semantic markup.

Then I'll wrap a big '<div id="content">...</div>' around that, add '<div
id="navi">...</div>' below it and stick whatever navigation stuff I want
there.

*Then* I'll decide what it should look like.

I'll turn on borders for all block level elements and, using my trusty
tezt editor and Opera, add basic CSS positioning, which usually takes just
a few minutes. Then spend about another hour working out combinations of
selectors and stuff to fix IE5 and IE6 bugs. I usually don't test in Moz
until the last minute.

Then turn off the borders and add whatever colours, etc I want.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132

Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a

"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote in message
news:40***********************@news.versatel.net.. .

"Karl Groves" <ka**@NOSPAMkarlcore.com> wrote in message
news:c6**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...

"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote in message
news:40***********************@news.versatel.net.. .
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the people we outsource things to, how we want it done.
As someone who relies on a ton of outsourcing, I recommend NOT giving
production work to someone who doesn't understand what you want.
Your job isn't to teach people how to author CSS instead of tables.

I have a whole stable of freelancers I rely on for overflow work. If I

need
something done in PHP, I don't call my .NET guy, even if he knows some

PHP.
I call the best person for the job.
If your freelancers don't know CSS, then find someone who does.


I would if I had a choice. They're from <insert warzone here> and they

have to know what my boss promised our customers. It has to be outsourced to
them, and I doubt there are many more of "them" in <insert warzone here>.

:)

Sorry. Not interested in helping someone who takes jobs from their
countrymen.

-Karl
Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a

"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
Karl Groves wrote:
"Andreas Prilop" wrote ...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004, Woolly Mittens wrote:

I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to
develop a website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.

You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is
only a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics
like P, H1, H2, etc.


http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/....html#edef-DIV " The DIV
and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class attributes,
offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.

IOW, DIV is appropriate for doing exactly what the OP wants to do.


Unless there is another, more appropriate, element at hand, which was A.
Prilop's point.

<snip>

I agree completely. But I don't see where the OP mentioned anything
specific about *what* was being positioned by the tables that would be moved
to DIV and CSS.

-Karl
Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
[apologies for excessive quoting; I couldn't decide how to cut more out
and still retain the context]
Woolly Mittens wrote:
> how to develop a website using DIV's and CSS, instead of
> TABLES. "Andreas Prilop" wrote ...
You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning
and is only a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined
semantics like P, H1, H2, etc.
Karl Groves wrote:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/....html#edef-DIV " The
DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to
documents.
Brian wrote...
Unless there is another, more appropriate, element at hand

Karl Groves wrote: I agree completely. But I don't see where the OP mentioned anything
specific about *what* was being positioned by the tables that would
be moved to DIV and CSS.


Well, no, that was missing. So, in the absence of a url (op, take
note!), we're arguing about the color of the walls in a perfectly dark
room. In spite of that, I'd still say it's best not to replace "table
layout" with "div + css," but rather "(proper) html + css," which is how
I read A. Prilop's comments. Not that I'm his lawyer.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
Woolly Mittens wrote:
"Karl Groves" <ka**@NOSPAMkarlcore.com> wrote ...
"Woolly Mittens" <wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote...
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to
develop a website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.

If your freelancers don't know CSS, then find someone who does.


I would if I had a choice. They're from <insert warzone here> and
they have to know what my boss promised our customers. It has to be
outsourced to them, and I doubt there are many more of "them" in
<insert warzone here>. :)


I cannot parse the last part of that reply. You doubt there are many
more of your freelancers in the place where your freelancers are? If
I've missed the obvious, well, pardon me and please make it more obvious.

Karl Grove gave you good advice, imho. If your freelance web developers
do not know how to write proper html, and don't know what css is, then
you have the wrong freelancers on the job. And if they're freelancers,
surely you can find new ones. Or is there a contract involved?

I don't know how much we can help you if we only get cryptic information
about the problem.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #24

P: n/a
Woolly Mittens wrote:
"CC Zona" wrote ...
Here's one more you can add: http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
Thank you ever so much. You're the first one to actually answer the
question instead of endlessly discussing the semantics of the
question.


<ahem> Actually, some of us *did* answer it. In my response, I even
included some html tutorial sites that I thought you'd find useful, but
you seem to have ignored it. How nice to see that my time was wasted.
And a note to all the people who replied in this thread. It's
perfectly OK to discuss the question,
Thank you for giving us the permission to discuss html authoring
questions in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html and alt.html.
but please don't forget to answer it.


Ok. By the way, please don't forget to pay your helpdesk bill.

All the best.
--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #25

P: n/a
Toby A Inkster Us******************@deadspam.com wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote:
I would be interested to know how others handle this initial stage? Or do
other people just "know" how to form the basic elements?


Errr. Yeah, basically. I tend to start with plain text, mark up headings
and paragraphs, add inline links, emphasis and other semantic markup.

Then I'll wrap a big '<div id="content">...</div>' around that, add '<div
id="navi">...</div>' below it and stick whatever navigation stuff I want
there.

*Then* I'll decide what it should look like.

I'll turn on borders for all block level elements and, using my trusty
tezt editor and Opera, add basic CSS positioning, which usually takes just
a few minutes. Then spend about another hour working out combinations of
selectors and stuff to fix IE5 and IE6 bugs. I usually don't test in Moz
until the last minute.

Then turn off the borders and add whatever colours, etc I want.


OK...two processes I recognise...but I like to think I've moved on from

I start with drawing up a clear "mission statement"...printed out and
placed where I can see it until it's absolutely ingrained into everything
I do on the site

then using post it notes all over the floor I decide what the site
structure will be and then either divide up existing content or create the
content to fit...I do the basic html mark up and also proofread at the
same time...these are the stages at which I do most of the work regarding
search engine optimisation and accessibility

then I put together a basic template using a page of content and set up
the navigation...I do the css with the template until I'm happy it's
likely to be fairly stable...then chop in the content to make each
individual page and check each one

finally upload...tweak for a range of browsing situations...test, test and
test again...and go live

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 20 '05 #26

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:24:55 +0200, "Woolly Mittens"
<wm******@hotmailz.com> declared in
alt.html,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.


I think others have made the point about it being correctly structured
HTML, not just <div>s everywhere, so I won't go there. :-)

http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?What_is_CSS
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Why_use_CSS
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
Jul 20 '05 #27

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:18:39 +0200, Andreas Prilop
<nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
You should avoid using the DIV element, which has no meaning and is only
a "last resort". Rather use elements with defined semantics like P, H1,
H2, etc.


Is Richard forging your headers ? That's quite the most stupid
comment I've seen in here (apart from the state-registered-morons) for
some time.

<div> with a reasonable use of class or id has just as much semantic
validity as <h2> or <blockquote>. let's face it - HTML just does not
have any useful semantics beyond the absolutely trivial for a very
narrow scope.

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 20 '05 #28

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:24:55 +0200, "Woolly Mittens"
<wm******@hotmailz.com> wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES. This is to explain to the
people we outsource things to, how we want it done.


How about something that explains to your boss why outsourcing to the
ignorant doesn't help your overall business ?

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 20 '05 #29

P: n/a
Andy Dingley wrote:
Is Richard forging your headers ? That's quite the most stupid
comment I've seen in here (apart from the state-registered-morons) for
some time.
Trying to start a flame war?
<div> with a reasonable use of class or id has just as much semantic
validity as <h2> or <blockquote>.


And you know this to be true for every ua that exists?

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #30

P: n/a
CJM

"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...
Karl Grove gave you good advice, imho. If your freelance web developers
do not know how to write proper html, and don't know what css is, then
you have the wrong freelancers on the job. And if they're freelancers,
surely you can find new ones. Or is there a contract involved?


I think you are both being a little hard on him there.

Reading between the lines, it seems to me that his hands are tied.

Outsourcing is always about cheaper, not better. I expect Mr Mittens has
little control over who his company chooses as an outsourcing organisation.
While he ought to point out his concerns to his bosses, I suspect that it
will have little effect, and thus we have to decide whether to make the best
of a bad situation and help him, or take Karl's stance leave him in the
sh*t.

Personally, I'm for helping him...

That said, picking CSS-P is not a trivial step, and I would be doubtful that
this will be a pleasant experience. Would we want a act as a guinea pig for
a 3rd party to practice their skills? What is more, how professional can
they be if they cant find their own information on CSS-P themselves??

It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Just my 0.02

Chris
Jul 20 '05 #31

P: n/a
CJM wrote:
Brian wrote...
Karl Grove gave you good advice, imho. If your freelance web
developers do not know how to write proper html, and don't know
what css is, then you have the wrong freelancers on the job.
I think you are both being a little hard on him there.


! I don't think I'm being hard on the op. I am hard on the freelancers
who don't know what css is, but then, so are you (as quoted below).
it seems to me that his hands are tied.
I'd have to agree, if a contract is involved.
I expect Mr Mittens has little control over who his company chooses
as an outsourcing organisation. While he ought to point out his
concerns to his bosses, I suspect that it will have little effect
Yes, that may also be true.
Personally, I'm for helping him...
Me too. That's why I posted links to html tutorials in another thread.
That said, picking CSS-P is not a trivial step, and I would be
doubtful that this will be a pleasant experience.
It will be all the more difficult if their html code is not pristine.
Browsers do strange things when the html structure is ambiguous.
What is more, how professional can they be if they cant find their
own information on CSS-P themselves??

It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.


I don't know why you're taking me to task; it appears that we are
largely in agreement over the cause of the problem.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #32

P: n/a
CJM
"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:10*************@corp.supernews.com...

I don't know why you're taking me to task; it appears that we are
largely in agreement over the cause of the problem.

I wasnt. Well, I didn't intend to. :)

It was response to multiple comments from multiple people... I had to post
it somewhere(!) lol
Perhaps I should have tagged it onto Karl's post...

cheers

Chris

Jul 20 '05 #33

P: n/a
In article <c6************@ID-209813.news.uni-berlin.de>, CJM writes:
Outsourcing is always about cheaper, not better.


No, sometimes it's about customer requirements. Some contracts will
have what's called a "local content" requirement; stating that 5%
or 25% of the contract content will be performed by "local" sources.
I've seen such where "local" was defined as a particular state (in
the US) and some where it was defined as the customer's country.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
There is three erors in this sentence.

Jul 20 '05 #34

P: n/a
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:32:16 -0400, Brian
<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
Is Richard forging your headers ? That's quite the most stupid
comment I've seen in here (apart from the state-registered-morons) for
some time.


Trying to start a flame war?


No, it's more like the bit in "Shaun of the Dead" (great film, BTW)
where the hero wades through the pack of mindless drooling zombies
waving a cricket bat.

This is just a stupid comment. It would still be a stupid comment if
Jukka or Alan made it (although I rather doubt they would). Richard is
just the local benchmark idiot.

A question on how <div> can offers real semantic usefulness could be
the beginnings of an interesting debate. Can classes with a literal
string be enough, or do we need to go as far as using URIs that refer
to an external ontology ? This comment though was just trivial and
stupid.
<div> with a reasonable use of class or id has just as much semantic
validity as <h2> or <blockquote>.


And you know this to be true for every ua that exists?


Of course. Semantics is independent of the user agent (that is rather
the point, after all).
--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 20 '05 #35

P: n/a
"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
Thank you ever so much. You're the first one to actually answer the
<ahem> Actually, some of us *did* answer it. In my response, I even


First != Only.

Thanks everybody for the responses, sadly I won't see the results of the
efforts until the <insert warzone here> people get some work done. :)
Jul 20 '05 #36

P: n/a
Woolly Mittens wrote:
I was asked to find some documentation which explains how to develop a
website using DIV's and CSS, instead of TABLES.
Why DIVs are not always the most appropriate elements to be used has
already been explained.
I dug around alistapart but couldn't find anything complete enough.
But it is a good resource link to give to the developers.
I searched through the W3C, but could only find the standards, not how to
apply them in the desired way.

Does anyone have some handy links for me???


No links in the first place, but books:

"Designing With Web Standards" by Jeffrey Zeldman.
For people who know old-school HTML with FONTs and TABLEs and hundreds
of validator errors. Zeldman explains why and how to move from invalid
pages layouted with TABLES to valid XHTML Transitional pages with less
TABLE layout and style. This book is far from being perfect (by my high
coding standards, that is); there are some errors in the code and
content, there is too much X(HT)ML hype in it (a reader might think that
HTML is bad) -- but it is a good start for people who are not convinced
of valid (X)HTML, CSS and TABLEless layouts.

"Eric Meyer on CSS" and "More Eric Meyer on CSS" by, surprisingly,
Eric A. Meyer.
Some real-world examples how to use CSS and more or less semantic markup
to produce modern websites. Use the companion websites to get a glance
at the several projects: <http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/>,
<http://more.ericmeyeroncss.com/>

To show your developers the power of CSS (so they get interested) lead
them to <http://www.csszengarden.com/>.
f'up2 <news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html> set.
Jul 20 '05 #37

P: n/a
Andy Dingley wrote:
This is just a stupid comment. It would still be a stupid comment if
Jukka or Alan made it (although I rather doubt they would). Richard
is just the local benchmark idiot.


The logic of your argument is impeccable.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" from my address to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 20 '05 #38

P: n/a
While the city slept, Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> feverishly
typed:

[...]
Here's something from a restaurant website that I redid. [...] http://www.tsmchughs.com/


Nice. But the image on the front page is a bit flat... I took the liberty of
adjusting the brightness / contrast etc in Paint Shop Pro, and here is a
comparison: http://www.nigenet.org.uk/stuff/tsm/

If you like it, feel free to use it.

Cheers,
Nige

--
Nigel Moss.

Email address is not valid. ni***@nigenetDOG.org.uk. Take the dog out!
http://www.nigenet.org.uk | Boycott E$$O!! http://www.stopesso.com
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!
Jul 20 '05 #39

P: n/a
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote in message news:<op**************@news.rcn.com>...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:38:04 -0400, Brian
<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:

That should have been
<ul>
<li>news item</li>
<li>news item</li>
</ul>

No bull!

:-D (Man, I wish I had thought of that!)


As Oscar Wilde would have said, "You will Brian, you will." :)


Actually, Whistler said it _to_ Oscar Wilde

;)

Colin
Jul 20 '05 #40

P: n/a
On 23 Apr 2004 01:26:23 -0700, colin <co***@plexusmedia.co.uk> wrote:
Neal <ne*****@spamrcn.com> wrote in message
news:<op**************@news.rcn.com>...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 13:38:04 -0400, Brian
<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
> :-D (Man, I wish I had thought of that!)


As Oscar Wilde would have said, "You will Brian, you will." :)


Actually, Whistler said it _to_ Oscar Wilde


But Wilde *would have* said it...

BTW I'm back on Usenet, yay.
Jul 20 '05 #41

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