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How is the charset determined for this Russian page?

P: n/a
How is the charset determined for this Russian page?
http://www.planetaquarium.com:8204/d...of_th1097.html
It's not set as a META tag in the head:
__________________________________________________
<head>
<title>Time of the Moon</title>
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css">
</head>
_________________________________________________

And it's not set in the Style sheet
__________________________________________________
body { font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size:
smaller }
tbody { font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size:
smaller }
__________________________________________________
But when you view it, you get the Cyrillic alphabet. However, when
you save it, you get the odd characters that look like Old English or
Norse! And does anybody know what encoding it is? It looks slightly
different than 1251.
Jul 20 '05 #1
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13 Replies


P: n/a
Sayeed wrote:
How is the charset determined for this Russian page?
http://www.planetaquarium.com:8204/d...of_th1097.html
The usual way, in the http header:

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:00:32 GMT
Server: Apache/1.3.14 (Unix) rus/PL30.0
Last-Modified: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:38:47 GMT
ETag: "9c910-139f-3b626c07-x-mac-cyrillic"
Accept-Ranges: bytes
Content-Length: 5023
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/html; charset=x-mac-cyrillic
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's not set as a META tag in the head:
Http-equiv is a highly suboptimal technique for sending character set
information.
And it's not set in the Style sheet


You can't specify the character encoding using style sheets.

--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 21:57:26 GMT, Sayeed <Sa****@taqiyya.com> wrote:
How is the charset determined for this Russian page?


Probably similar to how I set it - in the .htaccess file.
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
Sayeed <Sa****@taqiyya.com> wrote:
How is the charset determined for this Russian page?
http://www.planetaquarium.com:8204/d...of_th1097.html
When you visit the homepage <http://www.planetaquarium.com/> you can
see links to versions in different character sets (Latin or Cyrillic)
and different encodings (Windows-1251, ISO-8859-5 ...). The server
transcodes the documents and sends them on different ports depending
on the charset parameter, for example:
<http://www.planetaquarium.com:8203/> ISO-8859-5
<http://www.planetaquarium.com:8204/> MacCyrillic
But when you view it, you get the Cyrillic alphabet.
Since the encoding is MacCyrillic, you must either have a Macintosh
or use Mozilla/Netscape. Other browsers do not support the special
Macintosh encodings.
However, when
you save it, you get the odd characters that look like Old English or
Norse! And does anybody know what encoding it is? It looks slightly
different than 1251.


MacCyrillic <http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/cyrillic.mac> &
Windows-1251 <http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/cyrillic.win>
are identical in the range xE0 to xFD (small Russian letters from
'a' to 'ju').
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Andreas Prilop wrote:
<http://www.planetaquarium.com:8204/> MacCyrillic
But when you view it, you get the Cyrillic alphabet.


Since the encoding is MacCyrillic, you must either have a Macintosh
or use Mozilla/Netscape. Other browsers do not support the special
Macintosh encodings.


Bizarre. When I visit that URL with Win IE6, it seems to display
correctly. When I pull down the menu View->encoding, I see a ghostly
bullet alongside a greyed-out "Cyrillic (Mac)" menu item.

I have to conclude that IE6 secretly supports this encoding, even
though it doesn't allow it to be explicitly selected! Evidently you
haven't encountered this before (nor had I, to be honest).

Alongside, however, this silly site has popped-up a window that's
displaying complete garbage. Right-click->encoding - it tells me
"UTF-8", which is clearly wrong. I try manually setting Auto-detect,
and what comes out of that? Why, "Cyrillic (Windows)". One more good
reason not to use popups?!?

The original poster might be interested to visit the page of the
"Russian Apache" web server, where the topic of transcoding is
discussed. Hmmm, actually the URL that I have is
http://apache.lexa.ru/english/internals.html , I'm not sure if that
really represents the current state of play, but it gives the general
idea.
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell:
Bizarre. When I visit that URL with Win IE6, it seems to display
correctly. When I pull down the menu View->encoding, I see a ghostly
bullet alongside a greyed-out "Cyrillic (Mac)" menu item. I have to conclude that IE6 secretly supports this encoding, even
though it doesn't allow it to be explicitly selected! Evidently you
haven't encountered this before (nor had I, to be honest).


The same thing can happen if you visit a page using Latin 3, e.g. this
(boring) one:

<URL:http://www.bertilow.com/html/signokodoj/latino3.html>

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Bertilo Wennergren wrote:
Alan J. Flavell:
Bizarre. When I visit that URL with Win IE6, it seems to display
correctly. When I pull down the menu View->encoding, I see a ghostly
bullet alongside a greyed-out "Cyrillic (Mac)" menu item.
[...] The same thing can happen if you visit a page using Latin 3, e.g. this
(boring) one:

<URL:http://www.bertilow.com/html/signokodoj/latino3.html>


Oops - when I visited it, I got an IE popup telling me that in order
to display the page, I needed to install the the following language
pack: Turkish. However, as I'm currently running as a user, not as an
administrator, it wouldn't let me do the installation.

Well, since it had been going so well until then, I decided to
heroically log off, and log on as administrator. After completing the
installation as above, sure enough - I observed the situation as you
describe it. A ghostly bullet alongside a ghostly "Latin 3 (ISO)".
Hmmm, intriguing.

Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
Bizarre. When I visit that URL with Win IE6, it seems to display
correctly. When I pull down the menu View->encoding, I see a ghostly
bullet alongside a greyed-out "Cyrillic (Mac)" menu item.

I have to conclude that IE6 secretly supports this encoding, even
though it doesn't allow it to be explicitly selected! Evidently you
haven't encountered this before (nor had I, to be honest).


Surprise! But it depends on the OS version, too. Internet Explorer 6
on Windows 98 cannot display MacCyrillic documents.
Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell:
On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Bertilo Wennergren wrote:
Alan J. Flavell:
> Bizarre. When I visit that URL with Win IE6, it seems to display
> correctly. When I pull down the menu View->encoding, I see a ghostly
> bullet alongside a greyed-out "Cyrillic (Mac)" menu item.

[...]
The same thing can happen if you visit a page using Latin 3, e.g. this
(boring) one:

<URL:http://www.bertilow.com/html/signokodoj/latino3.html>

Oops - when I visited it, I got an IE popup telling me that in order
to display the page, I needed to install the the following language
pack: Turkish.
That's normal. If you havent' installed the language pack for Turkish
(the one that takes care of Latin 3 in Windows), you get such a popup.
However, as I'm currently running as a user, not as an
administrator, it wouldn't let me do the installation.
Bad luck! Well, the page isn't all that exciting anyway.
Well, since it had been going so well until then, I decided to
heroically log off, and log on as administrator.
I'm flattered!
After completing the
installation as above, sure enough - I observed the situation as you
describe it. A ghostly bullet alongside a ghostly "Latin 3 (ISO)".
Hmmm, intriguing.


The dark secrets of Windows Multi-Language Support!

I was just as surprised as you, a couple of years ago.

There's actually a secret register setting somewhere that can promote
Latin 3 from the darkest corners of Windows to a slighly less dark one.
Then Latin 3 will show up as a chooseable alternative, not just as a
grey ghost when you visit a page that declares Latin 3.

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:47:51 +0100, Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net>
wrote:

The dark secrets of Windows Multi-Language Support!

I was just as surprised as you, a couple of years ago.

There's actually a secret register setting somewhere that can promote
Latin 3 from the darkest corners of Windows to a slighly less dark one.
Then Latin 3 will show up as a chooseable alternative, not just as a
grey ghost when you visit a page that declares Latin 3.

What a mess on IE on W98 though. Never got a choice, I see ¡ and ± as the
top 2 things in column 2. In Opera I see crossed H and h as in the image.
But in Opera the top row of digits covers the bottom of the character...

I guess it wasn't destined to be my favorite page, huh?
Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
Bertilo Wennergren be******@gmx.net wrote:

I was just as surprised as you, a couple of years ago.

There's actually a secret register setting somewhere that can promote
Latin 3 from the darkest corners of Windows to a slighly less dark one.
Then Latin 3 will show up as a chooseable alternative, not just as a
grey ghost when you visit a page that declares Latin 3.


There are times when I wonder if MS select staff for obtuseness above and
beyond the call of duty. At other times I begin to believe there is a
deliberate conspiracy amongst software developers to prevent people
communicating with anyone outside their own country. Mostly, though, I
manage to stick to the idea that faced with a set of solutions to a
problem the vast majority of development teams will choose the one that
gets them to the pub earliest and damn the consequences for anyone else.
:)

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> wrote:
There's actually a secret register setting somewhere that can
promote Latin 3 from the darkest corners of Windows to a slighly
less dark one.


How secret is it? Does it contain ISO-8859-15 for example? Maybe I
shouldn't ask, since if the answer is "yes", I'm afraid some people
will start using ISO-8859-15. You know all those standards fans.
(ISO-8859-15 is the national standard where I live, and many people
have actually been lured into thinking it's a great improvement
over ISO-8859-1.)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
Neal:
On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:47:51 +0100, Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net>
wrote:
<URL:http://www.bertilow.com/html/signokodoj/latino3.html>
What a mess on IE on W98 though. Never got a choice,
That's probably due to some user setting about whether or not you should
be prompted for such things.
I see ¡ and ± as the top 2 things in column 2.
Then you haven't installed the support for Turkish.
In Opera I see crossed H and h as in the image.
But in Opera the top row of digits covers the bottom of the character...
I confess that I didn't test my latest redesign very thoroughly on
Opera. Strange reaction though. That table style shouldn't give any
trouble. It works well in Geckos, Explorer and Konqueror.
I guess it wasn't destined to be my favorite page, huh?


You can turn off the style sheet with the menu link "Elekti stilon"
(choose "Simpla prezento — sen stilo"). Of course with Opera you can do
that even faster.

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
Jukka K. Korpela:
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> wrote:
There's actually a secret register setting somewhere that can
promote Latin 3 from the darkest corners of Windows to a slighly
less dark one.

How secret is it? Does it contain ISO-8859-15 for example?


I'm sorry. I don't remember. That was so long ago, and in Windows 98
(I only use Linux now). Anyway, I only knew (then) how to do that for
Latin 3. It's probably completely different for Windows XP.

--
Bertilo Wennergren <be******@gmx.net> <http://www.bertilow.com>
Jul 20 '05 #14

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