Problems with width of input / CSS

[Peter Pfannenschmid]

Dear all,

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla? If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.

Thank you very much,

Peter

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Peter Pfannenschmid wrote:

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml
It's rude to ask people to spend time investigating problems with a
page before you've got it to pass validation.
Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla?
Sounds like the usual box-model issue, but I'm unwilling to look
closer till validation has been sorted out.
If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.

"Should" it? I would reserve judgment on that.

I'd recommend using visible borders etc. so that you can see how the
box model is working. My own notes on that are here
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...yout-diag.html

But the first priority would be to sort out the validation issues.

And then the usual litany, for pages intended for the WWW:

- don't specify font sizes in pt units (use em or percent)
- don't include verdana in font specifications
- if you specify a background colour then specify a text colour
*at the same specificity*, and vice versa. I.e always specify
either both together, or neither.

In short, you would get better results by reading this group before
posting to it.

[MH]

> > my question is concerning the following html page:

http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

It's rude to ask people to spend time investigating problems with a
page before you've got it to pass validation.
It's rude to tell that to people the way you do... and I find it is typical
for this newsgroup.

What you mean is this; Peter; sort this out first;
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...%2Ftest%2Ftest
..shtml
In short, you would get better results by reading this group before
posting to it.

Then why are you (AJF) posting at all?

-------
MH

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

[Followup set to comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets]

Peter Pfannenschmid wrote:

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla? If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.

You should realise that the 'width' property specifies the content
width and not the box width which includes any margin, border and
padding in addition.

Read all about the CSS "Box Model" [1] and "Visual formatting model
details" [2]. You may read the "Visual formatting model" [3]
section, too.
__

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html

--
Stanimir

[Eric Bohlman]

"MH" <no****@nowhere.no> wrote in
news:bt**********@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:

> my question is concerning the following html page:
> http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

It's rude to ask people to spend time investigating problems with a
page before you've got it to pass validation.

It's rude to tell that to people the way you do... and I find it is
typical for this newsgroup.

What you mean is this; Peter; sort this out first;
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...et.de%2Ftest%2
Ftest .shtml

Good idea, but Alan's point still stands. Validation of HTML source can be
performed by a machine whose "intelligence" couldn't even hope to come up
to that of an orangutan. And that means that asking apes who evolved more
recently than orangutans (e.g. humans) to debug invalid HTML is in fact
rather insulting. This is a forum populated by volunteers whose time isn't
free. Those of us who are willing to offer advice do so with the
understanding that all problems that could be detected by someone with less
intelligence than the average human have in fact been detected and
corrected. Believe it or not, that amounts to nothing more than treating
typical humans with respect; it would be awfully disrespectful to assume
that a poster was incapable of validating his HTML. An old song by the
Staples Singers comes to mind...

[Andrew Thompson]

"Eric Bohlman" <eb******@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xn*******************************@130.133.1.4 ...
| ..An old song by the
| Staples Singers comes to mind...

Which one?

Let's Do it Again - noobs
Use What You Got - use the validator
People Get Ready - use the validator
Why Am I Treated So Bad - Applicable to anybody
in the conversation who feels hard done by.
Getting too Big for Your Britches - .....
Gotta Serve Somebody - Which ..we don't,
but sometimes it seems like it.
Simple Man - ....

;-)

--
Andrew Thompson
* http://www.PhySci.org/ PhySci software suite
* http://www.1point1C.org/ 1.1C - Superluminal!
* http://www.AThompson.info/andrew/ personal site

[Eric Bohlman]

"Andrew Thompson" <an******@bigNOSPAMpond.com> wrote in
news:Vd****************@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

"Eric Bohlman" <eb******@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xn*******************************@130.133.1.4 ...
| ..An old song by the
| Staples Singers comes to mind...

Which one?

Respect Yourself

[Neal]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 18:06:34 +0100, MH <no****@nowhere.no> wrote:

It's rude to tell that to people the way you do... and I find it is
typical
for this newsgroup.

What you mean is this; Peter; sort this out first;
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...%2Ftest%2Ftest
.shtml

That's what he said. In his own way.

There are rules to Usenet. One is, read the group through before posting.
Get to know what's expected before you ask for help. In probably 20% of
the help threads here on my server, someone didn't validate, and I know
that in many cases that can be the cause of the problem.

Another rule is to accept that people who are experts in answering
questions diplomatically aren't always experts in the topic, and vice
versa. Alan knows his stuff, and that's one reason this ng is so useful.
But he's not an expert in answering questions nicely. That's not what we
need here.

You cannot say Alan is wrong. He's dead nuts right. Without valid code you
cannot expect to discover the root of a problem.

While I agree that people in general need to be more gentle in the way
they go through life, that doesn't mean that we disallow a little
frustration from somebody who's a real prize around here because someone's
asking for help with broken code. In this case, I agree with Alan - it's
not time to ask the questions yet. Read the ng, see if anything you find
here helps, and then and ONLY then ask for help.

[Stan Brown]

It seems "MH" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html in
article <bt**********@news1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>:

It's rude to ask people to spend time investigating problems with a
page before you've got it to pass validation.

It's rude to tell that to people the way you do... and I find it is typical
for this newsgroup.

Then I suggest you are entitled to a refund of 200% of the money you
have paid.

If you don't like the help you get here, then don't let the door
bang you in the ass on the way out. Otherwise, accept the fact that
you don't have any right to have others do your work for you; but on
the other hand if you show a sincere effort to understand you'll
have people falling over themselves to be helpful.

If that's too complicated, try this: It's _really_ stupid to insult
people when asking them to do you a favor.

(followups reduced)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Peter Pfannenschmid]

Dear all,

the people who told me to sort out validation first are right, and I
agree.

I knew this rule and followed it, but I have put the wrong file
online... I started the experiment (on local machines) with the file I
put online, then validated it and corrected the errors, and then put
the first version online - very intelligent, indeed. So please accept
my apologies.

Regarding the reproach of not having read the group: I have grouped
and googled, but I had no luck in finding a solution which makes the
input "controls" the same width in Opera, Mozilla and IE (the latest
versions).

So, as now the validated file without errors is online, again the
question: Any ideas how to achieve this?

Thank you very much,

Peter
it*@omeganet.de (Peter Pfannenschmid) wrote in message news:<65*************************@posting.google.c om>...

Dear all,

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla? If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.

Thank you very much,

Peter

[Peter Pfannenschmid]

Stanimir Stamenkov <s7****@netscape.net> wrote in message news:<bt************@ID-207379.news.uni-berlin.de>...

[Followup set to comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets]

Peter Pfannenschmid wrote:

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla? If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.
You should realise that the 'width' property specifies the content
width and not the box width which includes any margin, border and
padding in addition.

That was clear to me.
Read all about the CSS "Box Model" [1] and "Visual formatting model
details" [2]. You may read the "Visual formatting model" [3]
section, too.
I had already read these three, but still the question is: Why does a
select have another "visible" width than an input although the width,
the margins, the paddings and the borders of both are set to the same
value iva CSS? And why is this the case for IE and Mozilla, but not
for Opera, which does not have this problem?

Thank you very much,

Peter

__

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html

[Stanimir Stamenkov]

[Crosspost to comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html removed]

Peter Pfannenschmid wrote:

Stanimir Stamenkov <s7****@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:<bt************@ID-207379.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Peter Pfannenschmid wrote:

my question is concerning the following html page:
http://www.omeganet.de/test/test.shtml

Could anybody tell me why the text input box (the fourth element) is
wider than the other elements if the page is displayed in IE6 and
latest Mozilla? If displayed in Opera, the input box is as wide as the
other elements - as it should be.

Read all about the CSS "Box Model" [1] and "Visual formatting model
details" [2]. You may read the "Visual formatting model" [3]
section, too.

I had already read these three, but still the question is: Why does a
select have another "visible" width than an input although the width,
the margins, the paddings and the borders of both are set to the same
value iva CSS? And why is this the case for IE and Mozilla, but not
for Opera, which does not have this problem?

The HTML Form input elements are so called replaced elements.
Typically they are rendered using system controls and can't be
stylized through stylesheets. However the modern browsers give some
extent in that area but with different behavior. The different
behavior is just because it is not defined how exactly such controls
should be rendered - details like border, padding, etc.

Why you think when you apply padding to a text field element it
would be applied inside it just after the border. An UA could apply
the padding to a container box represented by the text field element
and the render the text field as normal (normal padding) inside the
content of that box. If you notice Opera doesn't obey the rules for
border on buttons, etc., as the other browsers have different behavior.

I hope I've got myself clear enough you to understand. Sorry for my
bad English.

--
Stanimir

[MH]

> That's what he said. In his own way.

True, and I did not argue that he was wrong.

.... Alan knows his stuff, and that's one reason this ng is so useful.
But he's not an expert in answering questions nicely.
That was my real point. It is all about communication and it does not apply
to AJF only.
What good is knowledge if you cannot get it across to other people in an
acceptable way. I think we need people like Richard Feynman; hyper
intelligent and able to communicate complex ideas and views to people with
less than half his own intelligence.
That's not what we need here.

I think we do.

---------------
MH

[Neal]

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:58:20 +0100, MH <no****@nowhere.no> wrote:

I think we need people like Richard Feynman; hyper
intelligent and able to communicate complex ideas and views to people
with
less than half his own intelligence.

Get them here, we're all set.

Fact is, you have who you have. Lucky you do, too.

[MH]

> > I think we need people like Richard Feynman;

Get them here, we're all set.
Died in 1988, unfortunately...
Fact is, you have who you have. Lucky you do, too.

And Feynman was not into HTML...

---------
MH

[Neal]

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:01:50 +0100, MH <no****@nowhere.no> wrote:

> I think we need people like Richard Feynman;

Get them here, we're all set.

Died in 1988, unfortunately...

Not the dead guy, the people like him. Except not dead.