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charset for accented characters

P: n/a
Despite charset being discussed to death, and despite having followed
all of those threads, I still have problems.

http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

This page uses iso-8859-1 charset. From the headers:
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190) and
the degree character (176), characters which Lynx can display on
http://www.obviously.com/browsers/iso-8859-1.html
However, Lynx does not display the one half character on my soda-bread
page. What have I done wrong?

Then there's accented letters.

http://www.bonfete.biz/
http://www.julietremblay.com/about/philosophy.html

Both of those pages contain accented e (the first has an e circumflex,
the second, e aigu). It's fine in Mozilla, IE/Win, and Opera. But in
Lynx, these letters show us as strange-looking (to me, at any rate)
glyphs. This is true on my pages, and on the browser test page. Is
there anything I should do to fix it?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #1
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23 Replies


P: n/a
Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190)

What have I done wrong?


You need to use the metric system and forget about silly fractions.
http://www.bipm.org/en/si/
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/
http://www.metric.org/
http://www.metric1.org/
news:misc.metric-system
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop wrote:
Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190)

What have I done wrong?

You need to use the metric system and forget about silly fractions.


:-D We left-ponders just can't make sense of metric. When someone
tells me that it was -5 degrees in Germany, I have to go to the
thermometer, look for -5 celsius, then see what that corresponds to in
Fahrenheit. Pathetic, I know, but it's what I was brought up with.

Then again, the recipe came from Ireland, so I guess it isn't only us.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:05:12 +0000, Brian wrote:
:-D We left-ponders just can't make sense of metric. When someone
tells me that it was -5 degrees in Germany, I have to go to the
thermometer, look for -5 celsius, then see what that corresponds to in
Fahrenheit.


And after looking up a value, you do cache the answer so you don't have to
look it up again any time soon, right?
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Looks ok to me
Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190) and
the degree character (176), characters which Lynx can display on
http://www.obviously.com/browsers/iso-8859-1.html
However, Lynx does not display the one half character on my soda-bread
page.
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)
What have I done wrong?
There's something wrong with -your- Lynx setup. Mine is displaying
just fine (it even supports utf-8). Your HTML is fine, and displaying
just fine and dandy here. (What about the threequarters?)
Then there's accented letters.

http://www.bonfete.biz/
http://www.julietremblay.com/about/philosophy.html

Both of those pages contain accented e (the first has an e circumflex,
the second, e aigu). It's fine in Mozilla, IE/Win, and Opera. But in
Lynx, these letters show us as strange-looking (to me, at any rate)
glyphs.


My suspicion is that you're using a CP850 (DOS) font and letting Lynx
think it's an iso-8859-1 font, or possibly vice versa. Go to the Lynx
options page and check what the "display character set" says. Take it
from there. Either change the font to match the configured "display
character set", or change the display to match the font ;-)

By rights you should be on c.i.w.browsers.misc for this discussion.
Your HTML authoring isn't the problem.

cheers
Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
In article <VGLDb.573469$Fm2.536232@attbi_s04> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian wrote:
However, Lynx does not display the one half character on my soda-bread
page. What have I done wrong? [snip]Both of those pages contain accented e (the first has an e circumflex,
the second, e aigu). It's fine in Mozilla, IE/Win, and Opera. But in
Lynx, these letters show us as strange-looking (to me, at any rate)
glyphs.


You need to tell Lynx which character set you're using, via a
setting in the Lynx.cfg file. You didn't tell us anything about your
system, so I have no idea whether my setting
CHARACTER_SET:cp437
will work for you.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
In article <16*************************@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de>
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Andreas Prilop wrote:
Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190)

What have I done wrong?


You need to use the metric system and forget about silly fractions.


Who are you and what have you done with Andreas?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a
Owen Jacobson wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:05:12 +0000, Brian wrote:
:-D We left-ponders just can't make sense of metric. When
someone tells me that it was -5 degrees in Germany, I have to go
to the thermometer, look for -5 celsius, then see what that
corresponds to in Fahrenheit.


And after looking up a value, you do cache the answer so you don't
have to look it up again any time soon, right?


Sure. But there's no 1-to-1 ration, so it doesn't do much good to
cache it. -5c = 22f, but 10c <> 37f.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread
Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and
190) and the degree character (176), characters which Lynx can
display on http://www.obviously.com/browsers/iso-8859-1.html
However, Lynx does not display the one half character on my
soda-bread page.


OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.
What have I done wrong?


There's something wrong with -your- Lynx setup. Mine is displaying
just fine (it even supports utf-8). Your HTML is fine, and
displaying just fine and dandy here. (What about the
threequarters?)


Sorry, didn't explain that completely. No fractions are displaying
correctly on the soda-bread page. However, the onequarter and onehalf
display on

http://www.obviously.com/browsers/iso-8859-1.html
[1]
This page declares a charset encoding in a meta tag, not in the
headers. Perhaps that makes a difference in my Lynx setup?
http://www.bonfete.biz/
http://www.julietremblay.com/about/philosophy.html

Both of those pages contain accented e (the first has an e
circumflex, the second, e aigu). in Lynx, these letters show up
as strange-looking glyphs.


My suspicion is that you're using a CP850 (DOS) font and letting
Lynx think it's an iso-8859-1 font, or possibly vice versa.


Will look into it.
By rights you should be on c.i.w.browsers.misc for this discussion.
Your HTML authoring isn't the problem.


So it seems. But when I saw that Lynx, as I have it configured,
displays e.g. onequarter on one page, but not another, you can see why
I thought I did something wrong on my end.

[1] To confuse things further, threequarter does not display on either
my page or on the iso 8859-1 test page.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread However, Lynx does not display the one half character on my soda-bread
page. What have I done wrong?


What happens if you use the entity &frac12; ?

(I'm seeing it displayed correctly on lynx 2.8.4rel.1 under Linux)

Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
Brian wrote:

http://www.tsmchughs.com/recipes/soda-bread

Under ingredients are characters for fractions (188, 189, and 190)
and the degree character (176), characters which Lynx can display
on http://www.obviously.com/browsers/iso-8859-1.html However, Lynx
does not display the one half character on my soda-bread page.


As Alan Flavell told me, the problem was with my Lynx config, and not
my html authoring. Sorry for the ot post.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to tell Lynx which character set you're using,
Yes - which *display* character set you're using, to be exact (this is
separate from the character encoding of the incoming HTML document:
Lynx does its best to map between the two).
You didn't tell us anything about your system,
Indeed. The observations seemed to me to be suggestive of Lynx
running in a DOS-type window being used under Windows, but there are
other possibilities that fit the facts...
so I have no idea whether my setting
CHARACTER_SET:cp437
will work for you.


Background:

CP437 is the original US-specific MS-DOS code page. It doesn't
contain the complete Latin-1 character repertoire.

As I understand it, Windows (ever since the production release of
Win95) has used CP850 - the DOS Latin-1 code page - for DOS windows
used in Windows. At least that's true in the European context, and I
don't _think_ they've crippled the US users by sticking to CP437 there
(437 had been used in the Win95 pre-production beta, and drawn quite
a lot of adverse comment).

Practical:

If one is using a CP850 display character set, then obviously the
results will be better by telling Lynx that it is so. On the other
hand, if one is using CP437 display, then one should still tell Lynx
the truth, and it will do its best, but some of the Latin-1 repertoire
characters will not display correctly. Sorry, I forget what those
were exactly, but they can be looked-up at the Unicode site:
http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPIN...ORS/MICSFT/PC/

The easiest approach might be to visit some kind of bona fide* test
page for the repertoire - for example I have
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...unidata00.html as part of
my unicode test pages, or the old
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/.../isotable.html iso-8859-1
-specific table. Then play with the Lynx "display character set"
setting until the best match is achieved, concentrating on cp850 or
cp437 if the problematic setting had been iso-8859-1, or trying
iso-8859-1 and/or windows-1252 if the problematic setting had been
cp437 or cp850.

I'd be interested to hear whether you see differences between 437 and
850 as your display charset setting, and which gives more accurate
results.

*) if you come across a page which purports to display visible
characters for code positions 128 to 159 decimal (80 to 9f hex) as if
they were a normal and proper part of iso-8859-1, then it's bogus.

Also, I have an ancient web page on the topic of running Lynx in
DOS-type environments, which may be partially useful on this topic
(the stuff in there about DOS-compatible packet drivers is irrelevant
to this).

[note crossposted and f'ups set]

cheers
Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.


Sorry - it's a peculiarly British thing, around this time of year.
Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.


Sorry - it's a peculiarly British thing, around this time of year.


Hmm. I recall a Monty Python sketch (from the television program) in
which the BBC was portrayed as being out of money, and resorting to
all sorts of tricks to trim the budget. In the sketch, a woman comes
in and begins arguing with John Cleese's military commander character,
her saying, "Oh yes it is," and him replying, "Oh no it isn't!" Is
this related?

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Brian wrote:

Alan J. Flavell wrote:
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.

Sorry - it's a peculiarly British thing, around this time of year.


Oh no it isn't !

;)

Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
In article <4dQDb.67863$8y1.261954@attbi_s52>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.


Look up pantomime. It's a tradition that's hard to escape in .uk
around this time of year :-)

--
Nick Kew
Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a

"Nick Kew" <ni**@fenris.webthing.com> wrote in message
news:sh***********@jarl.webthing.com...
In article <4dQDb.67863$8y1.261954@attbi_s52>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of Brian

<us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:
OH YES IT DOES! (I've been waiting for a chance to do that...)


? Not sure what to make of that.


Look up pantomime. It's a tradition that's hard to escape in .uk
around this time of year :-)


Pantomime. As far as I used to know, it means to try to communicate
something without words. (US usage.) Then I learned of the "pantomime
horse", which is apparently what we call a rocking horse or a hobby horse.
Then, last year, Scotland was one of the two countries profiled (Mali was
the other) during the Smithsonian Folklife Festival on the Mall in
Washington. One of the exhibits demonstrated pantomime. As far as I could
tell, it's another way of saying "skit". What distinguishes pantomime from
any other kind of silly play?

Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to use the metric system and forget about silly fractions.


Who are you and what have you done with Andreas?


Hmmm, please note that the International System of Units (SI) is
one of my favourite topics.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=SI+Prilop>

Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to tell Lynx which character set you're using, via a
setting in the Lynx.cfg file. You didn't tell us anything about your
system, so I have no idea whether my setting
CHARACTER_SET:cp437
will work for you.


The obsolete cp437 is not a good idea since it does not cover all
Latin-1 characters; for example it has no "fraction 3/4".
Better use cp850, which has all characters from Latin-1.

Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote:
Pantomime. As far as I used to know, it means to try to communicate
something without words. (US usage.) Then I learned of the "pantomime
horse", which is apparently what we call a rocking horse or a hobby horse.
Then, last year, Scotland was one of the two countries profiled (Mali was
the other) during the Smithsonian Folklife Festival on the Mall in
Washington. One of the exhibits demonstrated pantomime. As far as I could
tell, it's another way of saying "skit". What distinguishes pantomime from
any other kind of silly play?


A British pantomime (the word came from Italian and means something
else in it's original context) is a very stylised form of play.

It's normally a retelling of a classic children's story (Cinderella,
Aladain, Peter Pan, etc.) with lots of jokes and audience
participation added.

The humour tries to work on two levels with lots of jokes for teh kids
but enough double entendresto keep the adults chuckling. Topical jokes
often find their way into the script as well.

The leading male part is played by a woman (called the Principal Boy).

Comedy older female parts are played by men (called Pantomime Dames).

The audience will shout out "He's behind you!" at appropriate moments
and will join in one side of an exchange of "Oh yes it is!" "Oh no it
isn't" (repeat). Often children in the audience will be invited on
stage for the finale.

Pantomime's are normally performed at Christmas, with a fairly large
percentage of all Britain's theatres putting on a panto during
Decemeber and January. Actors from soap operas and comedy shows, plus
pop stars and TV presenters take parts in panto each year, leading to
some very odd combinations of people appearing on stage together.

Generally it is mostly children and the parents of children go to see
a Christmas panto in the theatre. The rest of us are sometimes
subjected to the far worse fate of the office christmas panto...

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andreas Prilop wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to tell Lynx which character set you're using, via a
setting in the Lynx.cfg file. You didn't tell us anything about your
system, so I have no idea whether my setting
CHARACTER_SET:cp437
will work for you.
The obsolete cp437 is not a good idea since it does not cover all
Latin-1 characters; for example it has no "fraction 3/4".


That's true, and I said much the same. However, if Lynx is running in
a situation where cp437 _is_ the display character set, then you'd get
no benefit from lying about it to Lynx. Either tell it the truth, or,
if feasible, find out how to change the situation in which Lynx is
running.
Better use cp850, which has all characters from Latin-1.


If you have that choice, then indeed it is.

(When I use "putty" to make a connection from Windows to Linux, I can
run Lynx with a utf-8 display charset.)
Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0312171732410.1724-100000@s5b004> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Andreas Prilop wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to use the metric system and forget about silly fractions.


Who are you and what have you done with Andreas?


Hmmm, please note that the International System of Units (SI) is
one of my favourite topics.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=SI+Prilop>


That's as may be, and I happen to agree with you that the SI makes a
lot more sense than the peculiar system used in the US.

But the OP was asking questions about how to display Web pages that
contain ISO-8859-1 characters 160 through 255. It's hardly helpful
to say that the pages should have different content. That's why I
was sure that someone else had temporarily taken over your account.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
In article <Pine.GSO.4.44.0312171739220.1724-100000@s5b004> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Andreas Prilop wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Stan Brown wrote:
You need to tell Lynx which character set you're using, via a
setting in the Lynx.cfg file. You didn't tell us anything about your
system, so I have no idea whether my setting
CHARACTER_SET:cp437
will work for you.


The obsolete cp437 is not a good idea since it does not cover all
Latin-1 characters; for example it has no "fraction 3/4".
Better use cp850, which has all characters from Latin-1.


Perhaps you have not seen my article, following up on Alan
Flavell's, in which I report the results of my experiment?

CP437 and CP850 both lack a 3/4 character. But Lynx (in Win98) does
a much worse job when told to display using CP850. At least when
told to use 437 it uses reasonable equivalents for the unavailable
characters; with 850 it displays garbage.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
Perhaps you have not seen my article, following up on Alan
Flavell's, in which I report the results of my experiment?
It have seen it only later.
CP437 and CP850 both lack a 3/4 character.
cp850 has *all* Latin-1 characters, including "fraction 3/4".
http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPIN...T/PC/CP850.TXT
But Lynx (in Win98) does
a much worse job when told to display using CP850. At least when
told to use 437 it uses reasonable equivalents for the unavailable
characters; with 850 it displays garbage.


I didn't mean just to set cp850 in Lynx but to set cp850 as system
code page in Windows 98. This is of course possible, and it is the
default value in all countries with Western languages except the USA,
where Microsoft chose cp437.
Jul 20 '05 #24

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