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difference between h1 and title

P: n/a
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I do
have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title as
h1. Comments?
Jul 20 '05 #1
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50 Replies


P: n/a
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?


The title applies to the document as a whole, and h1 to the titles of
the major subdivisions within the document. For example, consider a
resume. An appropriate title would be "John Doe's Resume", and some
likely h1's would be "Objective," "Experience," and "References."

In terms of how they're used by browsers, graphical browsers tend to
display the title as part of the text appearing in the title bar. And,
both graphical and text browsers often use it when displaying stored
favorites or bookmarks.

sherm--
Jul 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
Sherm Pendley <sp********@dot-app.org> wrote in
news:d9*******************@news1.news.adelphia.net :
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?


The title applies to the document as a whole, and h1 to the titles of
the major subdivisions within the document. For example, consider a
resume. An appropriate title would be "John Doe's Resume", and some
likely h1's would be "Objective," "Experience," and "References."

In terms of how they're used by browsers, graphical browsers tend to
display the title as part of the text appearing in the title bar. And,
both graphical and text browsers often use it when displaying stored
favorites or bookmarks.


Another way to put it is that the <title> element is part of the document's
*metadata*, whereas an <H1> is part of the document's *content*. Metadata
is literally "data about data" and in the Web context it means the sort of
data that helps one locate or categorize a document; "what is this document
called?" is, for example, a question answerable by metadata.

As it turns out, in most cases the first-level heading of a Web page will
essentially duplicate its title, for the simple reason that any document
that's big enough to have more than one first-level heading should, in a
hypertext environment, probably be broken up into multiple smaller
documents that are linked together. But the roles played by the title and
the heading are still different, even though the same actor may be playing
them.
Jul 20 '05 #3

P: n/a
In article <39************************@posting.google.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, MozillaCensorsMe
<mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly.


Try interchanging them and validating your document. You will
quickly see the difference.

And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #4

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named Stan Brown:
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


You didn't recognize the URL, Stan?

http://andkon.com/ Our old friend with the HTML tutorial. <g>

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
Sherm Pendley <sp********@dot-app.org> wrote in message news:<d9*******************@news1.news.adelphia.ne t>...
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
The title applies to the document as a whole, and h1 to the titles of
the major subdivisions within the document. For example, consider a
resume. An appropriate title would be "John Doe's Resume", and some
likely h1's would be "Objective," "Experience," and "References."


That brings up another point. Is it okay to use more than one h1? I'd
think that it'd be better to split it up into other documents.
In terms of how they're used by browsers, graphical browsers tend to
display the title as part of the text appearing in the title bar. And,
both graphical and text browsers often use it when displaying stored
favorites or bookmarks.

sherm--

Jul 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
mo**************@yahoo.com (MozillaCensorsMe) wrote:
That brings up another point. Is it okay to use more than one h1? I'd
think that it'd be better to split it up into other documents.


It's technically okay, but if you find that a page does indeed have
two top level topics it is often a good idea to either (a) split it
into two pages or (b) make the two H1s into H2s and add a new H1 that
encompasses both of them.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 20 '05 #7

P: n/a

"Sherm Pendley" <sp********@dot-app.org> wrote in message
news:d9*******************@news1.news.adelphia.net ...
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
The title applies to the document as a whole, and h1 to the titles of
the major subdivisions within the document. For example, consider a
resume. An appropriate title would be "John Doe's Resume", and some
likely h1's would be "Objective," "Experience," and "References."


You would probably have

<h1>Resume of John Doe</h1>

and then use <h2> for "Objective", etc.

In terms of how they're used by browsers, graphical browsers tend to
display the title as part of the text appearing in the title bar. And,
both graphical and text browsers often use it when displaying stored
favorites or bookmarks.

sherm--


Jul 20 '05 #8

P: n/a
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
In article <39************************@posting.google.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, MozillaCensorsMe
<mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote:
What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly.
Try interchanging them and validating your document. You will
quickly see the difference.


As in the text, not the actual tags.
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


Search andkon.com for an explanation.
Jul 20 '05 #9

P: n/a
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.

Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I think we already understand. You're selfishly bitter because not
everyone sees things in your uninformed point of view.

Jul 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:52:29 GMT, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.*********@example.invalid> wrote:
Quoth the raven named Stan Brown:
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


You didn't recognize the URL, Stan?

http://andkon.com/ Our old friend with the HTML tutorial. <g>


Cool. A year (or thereabouts) after producing a tutorial which was the
best around, and he isn't clear on the difference between H1 and TITLE.

Reminds me of someone in the alternative medicine groups who ranted on
about how all the AIDS researchers had no idea what they were doing.
After a few months of this we discovered he didn't know the difference
between a mean and a median.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Jul 20 '05 #11

P: n/a
The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the body
element while title is an element that must go in the head element and
displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever looked at a web page,
you've probably seen those titles at the top of the browser that tell
you the name of the page. In IE, when you add a page to favorites, that
element's content is used. You don't have to have an h1 but you must
have a title. If there is no title, you see the address of the page.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I do
have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title as
h1. Comments?


Jul 20 '05 #12

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named True Gamer:
[top posting corrected]
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world,
I do have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
as h1. Comments?
The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the
body element while title is an element that must go in the head
element and displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever
looked at a web page, you've probably seen those titles at the top
of the browser that tell you the name of the page. In IE, when you
add a page to favorites, that element's content is used. You don't
have to have an h1 but you must have a title. If there is no
title, you see the address of the page.


You must be new here. Andkon (alias MozillaCensorsMe) wrote an HTML
tutorial last year worth about 2 cents. Authors of tutorials should
already know the difference between title and h1.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=Google+Search

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #13

P: n/a
In article <39***********************@posting.google.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, MozillaCensorsMe
<mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I think not. If you want to be taken seriously, present yourself
that way.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
Sometime around 8 Dec 2003 12:25:21 -0800, MozillaCensorsMe is reported to
have stated:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I tried. I couldn't see a "Search" option anywhere.

And most people aren't going to bother to look, even if you ask them to.

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
Jul 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
Keith Bowes <do****@spam.me> wrote in message news:<Uk****************@fe10.private.usenetserver .com>...
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.

Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I think we already understand. You're selfishly bitter because not
everyone sees things in your uninformed point of view.


http://www.andkon.com/stuf/mozillazi...0andkon/1.html

Yes, at one time MZ changed all text from andkon to dumbass. However,
things have changed and so too might the sn:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=39223
Jul 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
In article <39***********************@posting.google.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, MozillaCensorsMe
<mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I think not. If you want to be taken seriously, present yourself
that way.


http://www.andkon.com/stuf/mozillazi...0andkon/1.html

Yes, at one time MZ changed all text from andkon to dumbass. However,
things have changed and so too might the sn:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=39223
Jul 20 '05 #17

P: n/a
Mark Parnell <we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote in message news:<e1******************************@40tude.net> ...
Sometime around 8 Dec 2003 12:25:21 -0800, MozillaCensorsMe is reported to
have stated:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message
news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.


Search andkon.com for an explanation.


I tried. I couldn't see a "Search" option anywhere.

And most people aren't going to bother to look, even if you ask them to.


http://www.andkon.com/stuf/mozillazi...0andkon/1.html

Yes, at one time MZ changed all text from andkon to dumbass. However,
things have changed and so too might the sn:
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=39223

Let's put aside past bitterness, and focus on the simple matter at
hand...
Jul 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
Stephen Poley <sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<7g********************************@4ax.com>. ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:52:29 GMT, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.*********@example.invalid> wrote:
Quoth the raven named Stan Brown:
And think about whether your screen name will cause you to be taken
seriously.
You didn't recognize the URL, Stan?

http://andkon.com/ Our old friend with the HTML tutorial. <g>


Cool. A year (or thereabouts) after producing a tutorial which was the
best around, and he isn't clear on the difference between H1 and TITLE.


There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
my website (say the neutral flood one:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
and title are the same.

The question is simple and you misunderstood it. What is the
contextual difference between hi and title? Is it okay to use title
and h1 with the same text or no? Comments...

There is no reason to be bitter and nitpick as my site already
demonstrates that I have mastered the skill of putting title in the
head and h1 in the body. Let's try our best to be helpful and not
hurtful.
Reminds me of someone in the alternative medicine groups who ranted on
about how all the AIDS researchers had no idea what they were doing.
After a few months of this we discovered he didn't know the difference
between a mean and a median.


Read above.
Jul 20 '05 #19

P: n/a
True Gamer <ch****************@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<yA*****************@monger.newsread.com>...
The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the body
element while title is an element that must go in the head element and
displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever looked at a web page,
you've probably seen those titles at the top of the browser that tell
you the name of the page. In IE, when you add a page to favorites, that
element's content is used. You don't have to have an h1 but you must
have a title. If there is no title, you see the address of the page.
No no no. I get the "basics". I mean semantically.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I do
have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title as
h1. Comments?

Jul 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<13*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named True Gamer:
[top posting corrected]
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world,
I do have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
as h1. Comments?

The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the
body element while title is an element that must go in the head
element and displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever
looked at a web page, you've probably seen those titles at the top
of the browser that tell you the name of the page. In IE, when you
add a page to favorites, that element's content is used. You don't
have to have an h1 but you must have a title. If there is no
title, you see the address of the page.


You must be new here. Andkon (alias MozillaCensorsMe) wrote an HTML
tutorial last year worth about 2 cents. Authors of tutorials should
already know the difference between title and h1.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=Google+Search


Once again, there is another failure to understand my simple question.

What is the difference between h1 and title, NOT (blue bar vs BIG
heading) but in their meaning. Should title be more descriptive than
h1? Can they be the same? etc...
Jul 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote in message news:<gg********************************@4ax.com>. ..
mo**************@yahoo.com (MozillaCensorsMe) wrote:
That brings up another point. Is it okay to use more than one h1? I'd
think that it'd be better to split it up into other documents.


It's technically okay, but if you find that a page does indeed have
two top level topics it is often a good idea to either (a) split it
into two pages or (b) make the two H1s into H2s and add a new H1 that
encompasses both of them.

Steve


That's what I thought... Thanks for the precise answer.
Jul 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
my website (say the neutral flood one:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
and title are the same.


I'd recommend fixing that page before too many people have a look. The
script at the end is not enclosed within the script tags.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu; ...

...thus showing the script in the browser.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
"MozillaCensorsMe" <mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39*************************@posting.google.co m...
What is the difference between h1 and title, NOT (blue bar vs BIG
heading) but in their meaning. Should title be more descriptive than
h1? Can they be the same? etc...


Did you note my reply to the topic?

Yes, they can be the same. But since the h1 is in the context of the page,
and the title is in the context of all the other widows open on your
desktop, you might want them to be different.

If I have a page about cats, I might use Cats as my h1, simple enough. So
might every other fool making a cat page. Mo big deal.

But say you're researching cats, and we've all made our title "Cats". When
you open three or four browsers and they all say Cats in the taskbar, it's
not very useful. If mine says "Neal's Cat Page" or something, and another is
"Billy's Page o' Cats" and another is "Petville - Cats", you'll better be
able to tell which is which.
Jul 20 '05 #24

P: n/a
On 8 Dec 2003 19:32:47 -0800, mo**************@yahoo.com
(MozillaCensorsMe) wrote:
Stephen Poley <sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<7g********************************@4ax.com>. ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:52:29 GMT, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.*********@example.invalid> wrote:

Cool. A year (or thereabouts) after producing a tutorial which was the
best around, and he isn't clear on the difference between H1 and TITLE.


There is no reason for hostility.


I am neither hostile not bitter. I simply find - in the light of some of
your previous Usenet postings - a decided touch of unintended humour.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
Jul 20 '05 #25

P: n/a
"MozillaCensorsMe" <mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39*************************@posting.google.co m...
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<13*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named True Gamer:
[top posting corrected]
MozillaCensorsMe wrote:

> Hello,
>
> While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world,
> I do have a simple question.
>
> What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
>
> For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
> example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
> as h1. Comments?

The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the
body element while title is an element that must go in the head
element and displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever
looked at a web page, you've probably seen those titles at the top
of the browser that tell you the name of the page. In IE, when you
add a page to favorites, that element's content is used. You don't
have to have an h1 but you must have a title. If there is no
title, you see the address of the page.


You must be new here. Andkon (alias MozillaCensorsMe) wrote an HTML
tutorial last year worth about 2 cents. Authors of tutorials should
already know the difference between title and h1.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=Google+Search
Once again, there is another failure to understand my simple question.

What is the difference between h1 and title, NOT (blue bar vs BIG
heading) but in their meaning. Should title be more descriptive than
h1? Can they be the same? etc...


Authors of tutorials should already know to look in the HTML spec for these
answers. :)
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.4.2
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1

Cheers!
Peter Foti

Jul 20 '05 #26

P: n/a
"Peter Foti" <pe****@systolicnetworks.com> wrote in message news:<vt************@corp.supernews.com>...
"MozillaCensorsMe" <mo**************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39*************************@posting.google.co m...
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message

news:<13*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named True Gamer:
[top posting corrected]

> MozillaCensorsMe wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world,
>> I do have a simple question.
>>
>> What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?
>>
>> For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
>> example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
>> as h1. Comments? The h1 element is a header that should go at the beginning of the
> body element while title is an element that must go in the head
> element and displays in the top of the screen. If you've ever
> looked at a web page, you've probably seen those titles at the top
> of the browser that tell you the name of the page. In IE, when you
> add a page to favorites, that element's content is used. You don't
> have to have an h1 but you must have a title. If there is no
> title, you see the address of the page.

You must be new here. Andkon (alias MozillaCensorsMe) wrote an HTML
tutorial last year worth about 2 cents. Authors of tutorials should
already know the difference between title and h1.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...=Google+Search

Once again, there is another failure to understand my simple question.

What is the difference between h1 and title, NOT (blue bar vs BIG
heading) but in their meaning. Should title be more descriptive than
h1? Can they be the same? etc...


Authors of tutorials should already know to look in the HTML spec for these
answers. :)
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.4.2
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1

Cheers!
Peter Foti


I did. " identify the contents of a document." and " describes the
topic of the section it introduces" are practical definitions. They
are of no help in this refined manner.
Jul 20 '05 #27

P: n/a
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
my website (say the neutral flood one:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
and title are the same.


I'd recommend fixing that page before too many people have a look. The
script at the end is not enclosed within the script tags.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu; ...

..thus showing the script in the browser.


Where...?

It's enclosed...
Jul 20 '05 #28

P: n/a
Stephen Poley <sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<b6********************************@4ax.com>. ..
On 8 Dec 2003 19:32:47 -0800, mo**************@yahoo.com
(MozillaCensorsMe) wrote:
Stephen Poley <sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:<7g********************************@4ax.com>. ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:52:29 GMT, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.*********@example.invalid> wrote:

Cool. A year (or thereabouts) after producing a tutorial which was the
best around, and he isn't clear on the difference between H1 and TITLE.


There is no reason for hostility.


I am neither hostile not bitter. I simply find - in the light of some of
your previous Usenet postings - a decided touch of unintended humour.


There's nothing wrong with "humor" or whatever but when it gets to
point of you misinterpreting what I asked for because of this humor
than that is uncalled for.
Jul 20 '05 #29

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsMe:
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
my website (say the neutral flood one:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
and title are the same.


I'd recommend fixing that page before too many people have a look. The
script at the end is not enclosed within the script tags.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu; ...

..thus showing the script in the browser.


Where...?

It's enclosed...


Not in my browser. Here is your source, at the end of the page.
Doesn't look as if it is finished.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu;
var contentobj=document.getElementById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.options[menu.selectedIndex].value;
var extension= message.substring(message.lastIndexOf(".")+1);
if (extension=="AVI"){
contentobj.innerHTML='
http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #30

P: n/a
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<b8************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsMe:
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:

There is no reason for hostility. If you take a look at any article on
my website (say the neutral flood one:
http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html) you will find that the h1
and title are the same.

I'd recommend fixing that page before too many people have a look. The
script at the end is not enclosed within the script tags.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu; ...

..thus showing the script in the browser.


Where...?

It's enclosed...


Not in my browser. Here is your source, at the end of the page.
Doesn't look as if it is finished.

<script type="text/javascript"></script>
var menu=document.form.selectmenu;
var contentobj=document.getElementById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.options[menu.selectedIndex].value;
var extension= message.substring(message.lastIndexOf(".")+1);
if (extension=="AVI"){
contentobj.innerHTML='
http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg


I'm gonna guess that you are using a buggy/old version of Firebird...
I checked with "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win 9x 4.90; en-US; rv:1.5)
Gecko/20030925 Firebird/0.7" and it works fine.
Jul 20 '05 #31

P: n/a
Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:
Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsMe:
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..
Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:

http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)


http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg


Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:

<script type="text/javascript">
var menu=document.form.selectmenu;
var contentobj=document.getElementById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.options[menu.selectedIndex].value;
var extension= message.substring(message.lastIndexOf(".")+1);
if (extension=="AVI"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false" loop="false"
volume="50" />';}
if (extension=="JPG"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
</script>

???

What happens when you actually view the source?

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
Jul 20 '05 #32

P: n/a
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Boy, this thread got bloody, and quickly.

mo**************@yahoo.com (MozillaCensorsMe) wrote in message
news:<39************************@posting.google.co m>...
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I
do have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
as h1. Comments?


Sometimes the content of the title and h1 elements *should* be
different, because the content is seen (by users) in different
contexts. Look at it this way:

The title content is often seen in a context *outside of the page* --
it's often first seen (by users) in search engine result pages, for
instance. It's also used as the default label in browser bookmarks.
Other sites often use it as link text. Since the user isn't actually
looking at the page, the title needs to carry more information about
the page than h1 does.

The h1 content is (except in extraordinary circumstances) always seen
as part of the rendered page. The user has more context about the
page, so the h1 doesn't have to carry quite so much information.

The difference is more important with "inside pages" (deep links)
than the top pages of sites. For example, the "table of contents" for
example.com might use these two slightly different elements:

<title>Example.com Table of Contents</title>

<h1>Table of Contents</h1>

The title element "overexplains" because you don't want someone to
bookmark the page, then look at the bookmark months later and wonder
"Table of Contents for what?". It's a usability issue. (I almost
always put the site title in the "title" element, because of the
bookmark issue. Unique identifiers to create unique bookmarks.)

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexplain",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.

Does this help?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.1 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBP9bIm3KbhCU9m6R7EQJG9gCgyr8m5R5u3UPaf8Mqsg3QoI 54v2AAoLt8
//q36M/qt5qI1MN+GI/ZMRTL
=Qbdn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Jul 20 '05 #33

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:
Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsMe:
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..

Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:

>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)

http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg


Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:

<script type="text/javascript">
var menu=document.form.selectmenu;
var contentobj=document.getElementById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.options[menu.selectedIndex].value;
var extension= message.substring(message.lastIndexOf(".")+1);
if (extension=="AVI"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false" loop="false"
volume="50" />';}
if (extension=="JPG"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
</script>

???

What happens when you actually view the source?


What you snipped is what I see, and copied from, in the source. My
Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.

Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #34

P: n/a

"Michael Bauser" <mi*****@bauser.com> wrote in message
news:4d**************************@posting.google.c om...

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexplain",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.


Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them!

Jul 20 '05 #35

P: n/a
mi*****@bauser.com (Michael Bauser) wrote in message news:<4d**************************@posting.google. com>...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Boy, this thread got bloody, and quickly.

mo**************@yahoo.com (MozillaCensorsMe) wrote in message
news:<39************************@posting.google.co m>...
Hello,

While I haven't finished my wonderful tutorial to save the world, I
do have a simple question.

What's the difference between h1 and the title tag?

For me it seems as though both can be used interchangebly. For
example, the articles on my site (andkon.com) have the same title
as h1. Comments?


Sometimes the content of the title and h1 elements *should* be
different, because the content is seen (by users) in different
contexts. Look at it this way:

The title content is often seen in a context *outside of the page* --
it's often first seen (by users) in search engine result pages, for
instance. It's also used as the default label in browser bookmarks.
Other sites often use it as link text. Since the user isn't actually
looking at the page, the title needs to carry more information about
the page than h1 does.

The h1 content is (except in extraordinary circumstances) always seen
as part of the rendered page. The user has more context about the
page, so the h1 doesn't have to carry quite so much information.

The difference is more important with "inside pages" (deep links)
than the top pages of sites. For example, the "table of contents" for
example.com might use these two slightly different elements:

<title>Example.com Table of Contents</title>

<h1>Table of Contents</h1>

The title element "overexplains" because you don't want someone to
bookmark the page, then look at the bookmark months later and wonder
"Table of Contents for what?". It's a usability issue. (I almost
always put the site title in the "title" element, because of the
bookmark issue. Unique identifiers to create unique bookmarks.)

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexplain",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.

Does this help?


Indeed.
Jul 20 '05 #36

P: n/a
"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<RO**************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...
Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
Sometime around Tue, 09 Dec 2003 21:28:39 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:
Quoth the raven named MozillaCensorsMe:

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <a.*********@example.invalid> wrote in message news:<sO*******************@twister.nyroc.rr.com>. ..

>Quoth the raven named andkonDOTcom:
>
>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)
>
http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ges/andkon.jpg


Is fine here (Moz1.5). Source says:

<script type="text/javascript">
var menu=document.form.selectmenu;
var contentobj=document.getElementById('area');
function whatsyour(pic){
var message=menu.options[menu.selectedIndex].value;
var extension= message.substring(message.lastIndexOf(".")+1);
if (extension=="AVI"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<embed src="'+pic+'" autoplay="false" loop="false"
volume="50" />';}
if (extension=="JPG"){
contentobj.innerHTML='<img src="'+pic+'" height="384" alt="" />';}}
</script>

???

What happens when you actually view the source?


What you snipped is what I see, and copied from, in the source. My
Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.

Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?


Really odd... Completely enclosed with Opera 7.23 for me.
Jul 20 '05 #37

P: n/a
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<br***********@ID-114100.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Michael Bauser" <mi*****@bauser.com> wrote in message
news:4d**************************@posting.google.c om...

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexplain",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.


Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them!


If the graphic banner is serving as the main header, then it ought to
be within an <H1> element, with appropriate ALT text for the image.

--
Dan
Jul 20 '05 #38

P: n/a
Sometime around Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:20:17 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty is
reported to have stated:
>>http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)

My
Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in Opera 7.2
and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote after the
first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01 and Mozilla 1.1.

Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6. Maybe
there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?


Weird. It works fine here in Moz1.5, IE6, O7.21, O6.04.

No stray scripts in Lynx, either (though of course, the scripts don't
actually work).

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
Jul 20 '05 #39

P: n/a
Quoth the raven named Mark Parnell:
Sometime around Wed, 10 Dec 2003 07:20:17 GMT, Beauregard T.
Shagnasty is reported to have stated:
>>> http://www.andkon.com/stuf/flood/flood.html)
My Firebird is 0.7, and it is exactly the same - truncated - in
Opera 7.2 and IE6. The document source ends with the single quote
after the first innerHTML. Oddly, it works ok in Netscape 7.01
and Mozilla 1.1.

Before my last post, I had looked only in F'bird 0.7 and IE6.
Maybe there is some hidden non-visible character in his document?


Weird. It works fine here in Moz1.5, IE6, O7.21, O6.04.


Weird is right. I have solved the mystery. It's my Kerio 4.0.7
firewall. On the Web tab, there is a checkbox for
[X] Enable web filtering I had it checked.
The only other options checked are to block VBScripts and ActiveX.

Unchecking the [ ] Enable web filtering allows andkon's page to
display normally, in all my browsers and in source.

I've been using this version of Kerio since a day or two after it was
released, and no other sites I've visited exhibit this phenomenon.

Further testing reveals that toggling the [X] Enable ActiveX is what
is preventing his page from working correctly. So... Kerio thinks that
script at the bottom of the page is an ActiveX control? How quaint!
No stray scripts in Lynx, either (though of course, the scripts
don't actually work).


I copied the whole source of the flood page from the Sam Spade safe
browser to a page and put it on web spaces of mine (sans CSS and
graphics) and it works the same way.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Jul 20 '05 #40

P: n/a

"Daniel R. Tobias" <da*@tobias.name> wrote in message
news:aa**************************@posting.google.c om...
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:<br***********@ID-114100.news.uni-berlin.de>...
"Michael Bauser" <mi*****@bauser.com> wrote in message
news:4d**************************@posting.google.c om...

On the other hand, the h1 element can afford to "underexplain",
because people actually reading the page have probably figured out
where they are already.


Or because the page has a graphic banner telling them!


If the graphic banner is serving as the main header, then it ought to
be within an <H1> element, with appropriate ALT text for the image.


I had never thought of that until I saw it alluded to here in the time I've
been in the newsgroup. Seems like a great idea. Just now I was thinking
there might be a problem, but I may also have just solved it. Typically, the
banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the first
text header will identify the particular page.

Banner: XYZ Industries
Text Header: Our Products

And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering the idea
of putting the banner into an <h1> But there is usually stuff *between* the
banner and the text header--all the navigation links, for example. So the
banner and the text header would have to be in two separate <h1> tags, which
would imply that the page was being conceptually divided into two sections,
which of course it isn't.

So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2> instead of
<h1>. Does that seem right?

Jul 20 '05 #41

P: n/a
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote:
Typically, the
banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
first text header will identify the particular page.

Banner: XYZ Industries
Text Header: Our Products

And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>
Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
debatable.
But there is usually
stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
links, for example.
Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)
So the banner and the text header would have to
be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
isn't.
And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
use
<h1><small><img src="header.gif" alt="XYZ Industries>

So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?


--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 20 '05 #42

P: n/a
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote:
Typically, the
banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
first text header will identify the particular page.

Banner: XYZ Industries
Text Header: Our Products

And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>
Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
debatable.
But there is usually
stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
links, for example.
Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)
So the banner and the text header would have to
be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
isn't.
And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
use
<h1><small><img src="header.gif" alt="XYZ Industries></small><br>
Our Products</h1>
since the banner could be regarded as _part_ of the main heading just
as you should probably write
<title>Products of XYZ Industries</title>.
But if the two are separated, it's a different issue. Again, you could
try and put the navigation last in HTML markup and position it visually
between the banner and the heading proper.
So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?


No, not at all. It's surely a first-level heading. The heading levels
are supposed to reflect the structure of the _page_, not of some site
that the page might be part of.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 20 '05 #43

P: n/a

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote in message
news:Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31. ..
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@comcast.net> wrote:
Typically, the
banner will be the name of the company or of the web site, and the
first text header will identify the particular page.

Banner: XYZ Industries
Text Header: Our Products

And typically "Our Products" would be <h1>, even before considering
the idea of putting the banner into an <h1>
Yes, the text that is descriptive of the overall content of the page
deserves to be marked up as <h1>. The role of the banner is more
debatable.
But there is usually
stuff *between* the banner and the text header--all the navigation
links, for example.


Unfortunately, yes. Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)


Granted. But in a world with Netscape 4.x ....
So the banner and the text header would have to
be in two separate <h1> tags, which would imply that the page was
being conceptually divided into two sections, which of course it
isn't.


And the banner isn't really an <h1> header, especially not as a
separated element. If the banner is adjacent to the header, you could
use
<h1><small><img src="header.gif" alt="XYZ Industries></small><br>
Our Products</h1>
since the banner could be regarded as _part_ of the main heading just
as you should probably write
<title>Products of XYZ Industries</title>.
But if the two are separated, it's a different issue. Again, you could
try and put the navigation last in HTML markup and position it visually
between the banner and the heading proper.
So I guess the *solution* is to put "Our Products" into an <h2>
instead of <h1>. Does that seem right?


No, not at all. It's surely a first-level heading. The heading levels
are supposed to reflect the structure of the _page_, not of some site
that the page might be part of.


Ah.

To summarize, you disagree with Daniel on the subject of putting the banner
into <h1>.

How about this? Don't put the banner in <h1>, and for the text header use

<h1 title="XYZ Industries: Our Products">Our Products</h1>

Jul 20 '05 #44

P: n/a
Sometime around Thu, 11 Dec 2003 11:50:33 -0500, Harlan Messinger is
reported to have stated:

To summarize, you disagree with Daniel on the subject of putting the banner
into <h1>.


I think Daniel was referring more to if the banner was "Our Products",
rather than the site/company name.

"Our Products" is definitely the main heading for the page, so it should be
a <h1> (and you should only have 1 <h1> per page).

The company name would possibly be the main heading for the front page of
the site, but not subsequent pages.

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
Jul 20 '05 #45

P: n/a
In article <Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Navigation links shouldn't be there but at the end
of the page, perhaps positioned visually in the upper right corner or,
to follow suit when playing the Navigation Game, on the left. (That's
relatively easy to do using CSS.)


I've always accepted that as received wisdom, until tonight when I
set out to do it. I would like to put my navigation links physically
at the end of each page, so that e.g. Google results will be more
meaningful for users; but I've been unable to figure out how to do
this easy thing.

I was unable to find any page (from the group of frequent posters
here whom I respect) that actually puts navigation links at the end
but uses CSS to position them at the start. I cobbled up
something[1] myself using position:absolute on both body and the
<div> containing my navigation links, but the table inside the div
lost its own positioning.[2] And from "index dot css"[3] I read that
position:absolute is problematic in IE and Netscape.

So could you perhaps explain just how to do this "easy" thing, or
point me toward some example where it actually works?

[1] http://www.acad.sunytccc.edu/instruc...nce/listpr.htm

[2] Yes, I know I shouldn't be using a table this way. That's the
next thing I intend to change, after I get this issue resolved.

[3]
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/cs...ify/position.h
tm
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #46

P: n/a
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
I was unable to find any page (from the group of frequent posters
here whom I respect) that actually puts navigation links at the end
but uses CSS to position them at the start.
I don't _use_ such style much but I have a demo of the concept:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/styles/layout.html

The details would best be discussed in c.i.w.a.stylesheets, and the
details depend on the desired type of positioning and the content being
positioned. But it's reasonably on-topic here, I suppose, to discuss
the overall _feasibility_ of the idea. After all, if the styling does
not work sufficiently well, authors will want to keep using old habits
and markup.
And from "index dot css"[3] I read
that position:absolute is problematic in IE and Netscape.


Basically, on IE 4 and Netscape 4, which are getting more and more
marginal. But some care is needed if you position anything but
<div> elements - actually, it might be best to wrap the element being
positioned inside a <div> anyway.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 20 '05 #47

P: n/a
(Stan Brown in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html)
I was unable to find any page (from the group of frequent posters
here whom I respect) that actually puts navigation links at the end
but uses CSS to position them at the start.


I don't know about the respect, but my page does just as requested:
http://www.attac.de/jena/

Another one (for testing) http://www.attac.de/jena/tests/index2.htm

Tilman
--
Der statistische Tote ist dir eal. Der stochastische Tote bist du selber.
Jul 20 '05 #48

P: n/a
In article <3f********@news.arcor-ip.de> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Tilman Hesse wrote:
(Stan Brown in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html)
I was unable to find any page (from the group of frequent posters
here whom I respect) that actually puts navigation links at the end
but uses CSS to position them at the start.
I don't know about the respect, but my page does just as requested:
http://www.attac.de/jena/


I appreciate the link, showing a different approach from Jukka's.
You also wrap the content in a big <div>, but position that
_relatively_. Is there a reason you have two separate navigation
<div>s, the first unpositioned and the second positioned absolutely?
I don't understand why you position the second one absolutely rather
than just let it flow.
Another one (for testing) http://www.attac.de/jena/tests/index2.htm


This is interesting, too. Thank you.

What was wrong with my efforts, I think, is that I tried to position
<body> and a <div> that was contained in that body. You and Jukka
both have separate <div>s that are children of the same <body>. This
gives me something to work with.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #49

P: n/a
In article <Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
I was unable to find any page (from the group of frequent posters
here whom I respect) that actually puts navigation links at the end
but uses CSS to position them at the start.
I don't _use_ such style much but I have a demo of the concept:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/styles/layout.html


Interesting -- you wrap all the page content in a big <div>,
position that absolutely, and let the (unpositioned) links take up
the space that is unused.

What was wrong with my efforts, I think, is that I tried to position
<body> and a <div> that was contained in that body. You and Tilman
both have separate <div>s that are children of the same <body>. This
gives me something to work with.
The details would best be discussed in c.i.w.a.stylesheets,


Agreed; f'ups redirected.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 20 '05 #50

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