Embedding EMBED tag in OBJECT

[Anna]

Hi all.
I want to embed the EMBED tag in the object tag.

I understood that I need to provide a PARAM tag inside the OBJECT
whose value will hold the content of EMBED src attribute, but after
that I've got confused.

For example, what should be put into classid and codebase attributes
of the OBJECT now embedding the EMBED tag?

Is there any general convention of how to complete embedding any EMBED
tag in the OBJECT tag, disregarding the type of media in embed src
tag?

Thanks in advance for your help

Anna

[Spartanicus]

Anna wrote:

I want to embed the EMBED tag in the object tag.

http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/embed.htm

--
Spartanicus

[Anna]

Hi Spartanicus.
Thanks for answering.

W3C WCAG explicitly says to leave embeds for backward compatibility,
but to include every embed in object:

"Objects, such as those requiring a plug-in, should use the OBJECT
element. However, for backward compatibility with Netscape browsers,
use the proprietary EMBED element within the OBJECT element."

I don't need to embed a specific embed into object, I need to know
a general convention of how to do this.

E.g. - take value of the 'src' attribute of EMBED and put it as value
for
'value' attribute of PARAM tag inside the OBJECT tag created.

Something like this, only full :-)

I hope there is something that will allow me to do such thing.
So can you or anybody else point me to some resource about this issue?

Thank you very much for help.

Anna
Spartanicus <[e-mail]> wrote in message news:<lj********************************@news.spar tanicus.utvinternet.ie>...

Anna wrote:

I want to embed the EMBED tag in the object tag.

http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/embed.htm

[Spartanicus]

Anna wrote:

W3C WCAG explicitly says to leave embeds for backward compatibility,
but to include every embed in object:

"Objects, such as those requiring a plug-in, should use the OBJECT
element. However, for backward compatibility with Netscape browsers,
use the proprietary EMBED element within the OBJECT element."
Incorrect and outdated, don't treat W3C advice as the final word.
I don't need to embed a specific embed into object, I need to know
a general convention of how to do this.

Which can be derived from the document at the url I mentioned, but one
of the points the document is making that the embed tag should not be
used at all.

--
Spartanicus

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Anna wrote:

W3C WCAG explicitly says to leave embeds for backward compatibility,
Well, it's at http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TEC...bed-multimedia
apparently.
but to include every embed in object:
Did you take notice of the annotation "Deprecated example"?

Using this kind of crud violates the requirement for W3C-conforming
valid HTML. So it'll fail the very accessibility criteria which (we
hope) you are aiming to satisfy.

The only way to satisfy checkpoint 3.2
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#doctype
(in the absence of an open published DTD that includes "embed")
and still use an "embed", would be to provide alternative documents;
you can't fool the system by trying to hide the "embed" inside an
"object". But the provision of alternative documents is an option
that's only offered for when all else has failed, see
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#alt-pages

No doubt whoever snuck that into the Techniques thought they were
doing it for the best, at the time, and they may have been right, over
3 years back. But times change.
element. However, for backward compatibility with Netscape browsers,
use the proprietary EMBED element within the OBJECT element."

I don't need to embed a specific embed into object, I need to know
a general convention of how to do this.

Simple answer: "don't". If you follow the WCAG document itself, you
will find no reference to this idea: as far as I can see, it's only
slunk into the version 1.0 "Techniques" (which are now over 3 years
old) as a palliative to an obsolete browser (Netscape 4). Folks who
are still running that browser now presumably have their own good
reasons for doing so, but they surely don't expect the best of what
current webpage developments can give them. So leave them to get the
best that their browser can do with standard HTML, would be my
counsel.

[Anna]

Alan, thank you for your answer.
Now I understand it better.

So from what I understood, I should replace every EMBED tag with the
OBJECT tag?

And what is the general convention here?
What OBJECT attributes do I need to use (data, classid, codebase) in
the replacement?

Sorry for these stupid questions, but I want to do it as clean and
right as possible, and I couldn't find any good resources on the
issue.

Thank you very much for your help.

Anna

"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk>...

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003, Anna wrote:

W3C WCAG explicitly says to leave embeds for backward compatibility,

Well, it's at http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TEC...bed-multimedia
apparently.

but to include every embed in object:

Did you take notice of the annotation "Deprecated example"?

Using this kind of crud violates the requirement for W3C-conforming
valid HTML. So it'll fail the very accessibility criteria which (we
hope) you are aiming to satisfy.

The only way to satisfy checkpoint 3.2
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#doctype
(in the absence of an open published DTD that includes "embed")
and still use an "embed", would be to provide alternative documents;
you can't fool the system by trying to hide the "embed" inside an
"object". But the provision of alternative documents is an option
that's only offered for when all else has failed, see
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-CORE-TECHS/#alt-pages

No doubt whoever snuck that into the Techniques thought they were
doing it for the best, at the time, and they may have been right, over
3 years back. But times change.

element. However, for backward compatibility with Netscape browsers,
use the proprietary EMBED element within the OBJECT element."

I don't need to embed a specific embed into object, I need to know
a general convention of how to do this.

Simple answer: "don't". If you follow the WCAG document itself, you
will find no reference to this idea: as far as I can see, it's only
slunk into the version 1.0 "Techniques" (which are now over 3 years
old) as a palliative to an obsolete browser (Netscape 4). Folks who
are still running that browser now presumably have their own good
reasons for doing so, but they surely don't expect the best of what
current webpage developments can give them. So leave them to get the
best that their browser can do with standard HTML, would be my
counsel.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Anna wrote:

So from what I understood, I should replace every EMBED tag with the
OBJECT tag?
The idea of OBJECT is that you can wrap several alternatives
inside each other, with an ultimate fallback (maybe just a simple text
telling them what they're missing) in the middle.

A great idea, but I'm afraid the browser implementation often falls
short of the intentions. (Especially in a certain browser-like
operating system component ...)
And what is the general convention here?
What OBJECT attributes do I need to use (data, classid, codebase) in
the replacement?
Sorry, I don't personally know a good tutorial that is really
browser-agnostic, but this page[1] looks a reasonable presentation of
the ideas, together with some practical issues:

http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsour...p-and-plugins/
Sorry for these stupid questions, but I want to do it as clean and
right as possible, and I couldn't find any good resources on the
issue.
I don't seem to have seen you saying just what it is that you're
hoping to include in your pages with these markups. I think you'll
find a fair bit of support around here for the advice that quite a lot
of what got inserted into pages with <embed> would have been better
left out, rather than trying to find standards-based ways of putting
it in.

Or at least delegating it to a separate page, which readers can go to
if they're so inclined.

But it really depends on what it is you're wanting to put there.

I hope others will step in here with some practical advice from
their own experience...?
Thank you very much for your help.

See: How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

good luck

[1] (once I've compensated for the page's determination to interfere
with my default font size, bleagh...)

[NOIZe]

On 11/24/03 1:49 PM, in article
Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac .uk, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Anna wrote:

So from what I understood, I should replace every EMBED tag with the
OBJECT tag?
The idea of OBJECT is that you can wrap several alternatives
inside each other, with an ultimate fallback (maybe just a simple text
telling them what they're missing) in the middle.

A great idea, but I'm afraid the browser implementation often falls
short of the intentions. (Especially in a certain browser-like
operating system component ...)

And what is the general convention here?
What OBJECT attributes do I need to use (data, classid, codebase) in
the replacement?

Sorry, I don't personally know a good tutorial that is really
browser-agnostic, but this page[1] looks a reasonable presentation of
the ideas, together with some practical issues:

http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsour...p-and-plugins/

Sorry for these stupid questions, but I want to do it as clean and
right as possible, and I couldn't find any good resources on the
issue.

I don't seem to have seen you saying just what it is that you're
hoping to include in your pages with these markups. I think you'll
find a fair bit of support around here for the advice that quite a lot
of what got inserted into pages with <embed> would have been better
left out, rather than trying to find standards-based ways of putting
it in.

Or at least delegating it to a separate page, which readers can go to
if they're so inclined.

But it really depends on what it is you're wanting to put there.

I hope others will step in here with some practical advice from
their own experience...?

speaking practically . . . using QuickTime content - if the object tag
alone is used only 3 browsers (explorer,safari,omniweb) of 9 tested will
display a movie.
If the embed tag is included inside the object tag all 9 play it.

Also the embed tag (in terms of QuickTime) has many more options than the
object tag has.

Thank you very much for your help.

See: How am I supposed to post my replies in a newsgroup?:
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

good luck

[1] (once I've compensated for the page's determination to interfere
with my default font size, bleagh...)

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, NOIZe wrote:

[comprehensive quotage now snipped]

speaking practically . . . using QuickTime content - if the object tag
alone is used only 3 browsers (explorer,safari,omniweb) of 9 tested will
display a movie.
If the embed tag is included inside the object tag all 9 play it.
Do you know any that can't display it when it's linked with
a simple <a href="..."> ?
Also the embed tag (in terms of QuickTime) has many more options than the
object tag has.

You seem to be struggling to fit a proprietary application into an
open information infrastructure. Are you familiar at all with the WAI
guidelines, which was surely the key to this discussion?
[pointless quotage, on which it appeared you had no comment, now
snipped]

[NOIZe]

On 11/26/03 2:39 PM, in article
Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac .uk, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, NOIZe wrote:

[comprehensive quotage now snipped]

speaking practically . . . using QuickTime content - if the object tag
alone is used only 3 browsers (explorer,safari,omniweb) of 9 tested will
display a movie.
If the embed tag is included inside the object tag all 9 play it.
Do you know any that can't display it when it's linked with
a simple <a href="..."> ?

I thought we were talking about object and embed.

Also the embed tag (in terms of QuickTime) has many more options than the
object tag has.

You seem to be struggling to fit a proprietary application into an
open information infrastructure. Are you familiar at all with the WAI
guidelines, which was surely the key to this discussion?
[pointless quotage, on which it appeared you had no comment, now
snipped]

You snipped the part I was responding to . . .

I hope others will step in here with some practical advice from
their own experience...?

That is from my own experience and it is practical.

[Steve Pugh]

NOIZe <no***@on.aibn.com> wrote:

speaking practically . . . using QuickTime content - if the object tag
alone is used only 3 browsers (explorer,safari,omniweb) of 9 tested will
display a movie.
If the embed tag is included inside the object tag all 9 play it.
To be of practical use to others can you supply more information?

Which nine browsers on which operating systems with which versions of
QuickTime (plugin vs active x) were they?

And what was the object code used? There's more than one way to write
an object tag. Well, there's the standard way, and the MS way, and
various hybrids.
Also the embed tag (in terms of QuickTime) has many more options than the
object tag has.

I may be naive, but I thought that an attribute of the embed tag
name="value" could be turned into a <param name="name" value="value">
in an object. Is this not the case? Or are there limitations in some
browsers? Or limitations with QuickTime itself?

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[NOIZe]

"Steve Pugh" using <st***@pugh.net> wrote:

NOIZe <no***@on.aibn.com> wrote:

speaking practically . . . using QuickTime content - if the object tag
alone is used only 3 browsers (explorer,safari,omniweb) of 9 tested will
display a movie.
If the embed tag is included inside the object tag all 9 play it.
To be of practical use to others can you supply more information?

Which nine browsers on which operating systems with which versions of
QuickTime (plugin vs active x) were they?

I'm sorry I was talking about current mac OS X versions.
And what was the object code used? There's more than one way to write
an object tag. Well, there's the standard way, and the MS way, and
various hybrids.
The recommendation for QuickTime is structured like this
-----------
<object classid="clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B" width="320"
height="256" codebase="http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab">
<param name="SRC" value="foo.mov">
<param name="CONTROLLER" value="TRUE">
<param name="AUTOPLAY" value="TRUE">
<param name="CACHE" value="FALSE">
<embed
src="foo.mov"
width="320" height="256"
controller="TRUE"
autoplay="TRUE"
cache="FALSE"
type="video/quicktime"
pluginspage="http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/">
</embed>
</object>
-------------
Flash is similar.

Also the embed tag (in terms of QuickTime) has many more options than the
object tag has.

I may be naive, but I thought that an attribute of the embed tag
name="value" could be turned into a <param name="name" value="value">
in an object. Is this not the case? Or are there limitations in some
browsers? Or limitations with QuickTime itself?

I'm sure not near as naïve as I am posting about media plug-ins in the face
of W3C and wai recommendations, but there are in this case doZens of embed
attributes that are not included in the activeX controls.

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/authoring/embed.html

Of course if eolas and ms and the w3c have their way with us it will become
much more complicated than that.

http://developer.apple.com/internet/ieembedprep.html

jim

Steve