Make Hyperlink Open a Minimized Window

[Brian Jorgenson]

On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

[Stan Brown]

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:

On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.

That said, don't use target="_blank", which means "new window". Use
target="BrianJorgenson" and then if such a window is already open it
will be reused.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[John]

In article <ng********************************@4ax.com>, [e-mail]
says...

Brian Jorgenson wrote:

I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Um, actually, many are not. Your average AOLer comes to mind.

John
_______________________________________________
C'est la vie! C'est la guerre! Say no more!

[David Dorward]

Jane Withnolastname wrote:

I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site.

Making people come back to your site whether they want to or not, sounds
like a sure fire way to annoy former potential customers.

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/

[Headless]

John wrote:

>I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Um, actually, many are not. Your average AOLer comes to mind.

Then the default works for them, it doesn't justify trying to force the
author's preference on users.
Headless

--
Email and usenet filter list: http://www.headless.dna.ie/usenet.htm

[Stephen Poley]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:27:28 GMT, Jane Withnolastname
<Ja**********************@yahoo.com> wrote:

I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site. As I said, this was a long time ago and maybe
this is no longer an accepted (or acceptable) practice.

I'm not certain, but I suspect this of being simply a (widespread)
misunderstanding. If one uses frames, one should not normally display
someone else's site in a frame - if it looks like you're passing off
their work as your own, it would be copyright infringement. You
therefore need to use a new (empty) frameset. This seems somewhere to
have become "new window".

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Stan Brown]

In article <gi********************************@4ax.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Stephen Poley
<sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote:

If one uses frames, one should not normally display
someone else's site in a frame - if it looks like you're passing off
their work as your own, it would be copyright infringement. You
therefore need to use a new (empty) frameset. This seems somewhere to

Just to clarify a bit what (I think) Stephen is saying --

_If_ you are using frames (generally a bad idea in itself, but
that's another story), _and_ you link to an outside site, _then_ the
link should have target="_top" so that you do not appear to be
claiming other people's work as your own by displaying it inside
your frameset.

I don't believe Stephen was suggesting target="_blank" as a way of
getting "a new (empty) frameset".

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Stephen Poley]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:49:49 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:

In article <gi********************************@4ax.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Stephen Poley
<sb*****@xs4all.nl> wrote:

If one uses frames, one should not normally display
someone else's site in a frame - if it looks like you're passing off
their work as your own, it would be copyright infringement. You
therefore need to use a new (empty) frameset. This seems somewhere to

Just to clarify a bit what (I think) Stephen is saying --

_If_ you are using frames (generally a bad idea in itself, but
that's another story), _and_ you link to an outside site, _then_ the
link should have target="_top" so that you do not appear to be
claiming other people's work as your own by displaying it inside
your frameset.

I don't believe Stephen was suggesting target="_blank" as a way of
getting "a new (empty) frameset".

Yes, that's basically it. Somehow the target moved ...

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Iris601]

"EightNineThree" <ei************@REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote in message news:<bi**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

"Jane Withnolastname" <Ja**********************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g7********************************@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:13:05 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:
>On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
>The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
>hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
>first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
>window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.

I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site. As I said, this was a long time ago and maybe
this is no longer an accepted (or acceptable) practice.

People tend to think that they can use ' target="_blank" ' to keep people on
their sites.
In reality, it is nothing more than an annoyance. It is just another window
to close.

Try this out:

http://htmlgoodies.earthweb.com/tutors/html_ref.html

[William Tasso]

Els wrote:

...
Yes, I know I can use the right click and open in a new
window if I want to. But how many regular surfers know that?
no idea - it's not important. when it becomes an issue for them they will
find it. make it a secret and every teenager on the planet will know by
noon tomorow.

To misquote some piece of statistical nonsense "you're only 6 hand-shakes
away from every person on the planet" so start spreading the word - get that
sms-group thing going ;o)
I didn't until I started reading newsgroups about webdesign
and html...

newsgroups are not the only path to enlightenment grasshopper.

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com

[Brian Jorgenson]

"EightNineThree" <ei************@REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote in message news:<bi**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

"Jane Withnolastname" <Ja**********************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g7********************************@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:13:05 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:
>On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
>The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
>hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
>first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
>window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.
I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site. As I said, this was a long time ago and maybe
this is no longer an accepted (or acceptable) practice.

This is an Intranet and every link is contained on one site
People tend to think that they can use ' target="_blank" ' to keep people on
their sites.
In reality, it is nothing more than an annoyance. It is just another window
to close.

[Brian Jorgenson]

Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:

On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.

That said, don't use target="_blank", which means "new window". Use
target="BrianJorgenson" and then if such a window is already open it
will be reused.

This is great target="web page" works but when I click on the
hyperlink again, it does not make the new page active. It still
remains minimized and does not become a full screen.

[Jonathan Brady]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:44:22 -0400, Headless wrote
(in message <ng********************************@4ax.com>):

Brian Jorgenson wrote:

I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Sometime there is a legitimate reason for opening a new window.

When a user requests additional information about a displayed item in
the main window, it would be wrong from the usability point of view to
wipe the original contents of the window and replace them with a snippet
of text clarifying something.

Some web applications require help pages like normal applications and to
keep the user clicking the back button after viewing the relevant help
information is not good. It would be much better to open a smaller
window containing the relevant information that the user can close when
they're done without losing the focus of the main window.

--
J Brady

[John]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:13:43 +0100
[e-mail] a/k/a Headless disseminated:

John wrote:

>I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Um, actually, many are not. Your average AOLer comes to mind.

Then the default works for them, it doesn't justify trying to force the
author's preference on users.

Every author forces his/her preferences on users to some extent. What
bothers me are authors who are either too clueless, too insensitive, too
lazy, or too egotistical to consider all the relevant factors that should
go into their design choices. I can belittle the author who says "hey,
I'm gonna have all the links open in a new window so they can't leave my
site". I can't belittle the author who says "given the subject matter and
purpose of the link within the context of the page, I think it makes
sense to have it open in a new window even though I know there are people
in CIWA who hate that". He/she may be right or wrong about whether most
visitors are appreciative or alienated, but he/she has made a thoughtful
(meaning "having thought about it") and informed decision. I can respect
that, although I may or may not revisit the site. Calling all popup (new)
windows "bad" is simplistic, but fundamentally it's a matter of opinion
or personal preference which should be acknowledged as such. And it's not
really a "content" issue relevant to Berners-Lee's vision of the WWW, but
rather a presentational issue, which technically is off topic for HTML.

Saying "the default works for them" is not the same as saying the default
is a preference. That'd be like saying somebody prefers IE when they
didn't know they had a choice. A "preference" is an intentional election
between known alternatives. The default may or may not be a preference.

I'm still thinking about your phrase "force the author's preference on
users" and whether it's analogous to saying I'm "forced" to watch a
particular channel on TV. Doesn't seem as bad as being forced to serve
time in jail or even being forced to drink decaf coffee. There's a quick
fix available to any offended users, even AOLers.

Here's my pet peeve of late, though: sites that re-size your browser to
suit their pixel-perfect layout and then leave it that way when you leave
the site! Now *those* people should be shot! My Firebird at home is, of
course, impervious to their nefarious machinations, but the IE at work...
And it's a government site that I use almost daily. Bleah! Government
sites, BTW, should be held to higher standards of accessibility and
usability than personal or commercial sites, IMHO, and there are laws to
that effect.

John
__________________________________________________ _______
Happiness? A good cigar, a good meal, and a good woman or
a bad woman. It depends on how much happiness you can
handle. - GEORGE BURNS

[Headless]

John wrote:

Then the default works for them, it doesn't justify trying to force the
author's preference on users.
Calling all popup (new)
windows "bad" is simplistic, but fundamentally it's a matter of opinion
or personal preference which should be acknowledged as such.

The browser UI is something that belongs to a user, it should be left
alone by site authors. This is not a personal preference, it's a
fundamental principle.
And it's not
really a "content" issue relevant to Berners-Lee's vision of the WWW, but
rather a presentational issue, which technically is off topic for HTML.
It's a UI issue, not presentational.
Saying "the default works for them" is not the same as saying the default
is a preference.

By trying to open new windows you are taking choice away from users.
Headless

--
Email and usenet filter list: http://www.headless.dna.ie/usenet.htm

[Harlan Messinger]

"Headless" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:8t********************************@4ax.com...

Jonathan Brady wrote:

I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Sometime there is a legitimate reason for opening a new window.

When a user requests additional information about a displayed item in
the main window, it would be wrong from the usability point of view to
wipe the original contents of the window and replace them with a snippet
of text clarifying something.

You have no way of knowing what I want.

If I've taken the trouble to build a web application, and you're using it,
then I think it's a reasonable expectation that what you want is for my
application to *work*. If that's less important to you than whether I'm
following your petty preferences, then by all means look elsewhere.

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Wed, Aug 27, Jonathan Brady inscribed on the eternal scroll:

Sometime there is a legitimate reason for opening a new window.

You're going to have a hard time doing that in some WWW situations.

Even in the mass-market situations where the concept "new window"
means anything, you would find (if you bothered to check user
preferences against your own) that there's a proportion of discerning
users who will fight you for the right to control their own windows.

I've just been viewing a really excellent gallery of photographs.
There were two dozen pictures, in the specific collection that I was
interested in. All of them excellent and well worth viewing. I'd have
been much happier if the author hadn't tried to open two dozen new
windows, on my now somewhat elderly workstation - with the resulting
risk of crashing not only the browser but the whole OS due to running
out of resources. As it was, if I hadn't used the preferences to
forbid the opening of new browser windows, I'd have had to keep going
back to old windows and closing them to clean up the detritus that
this inconsiderate author was leaving behind.

That may have been an extreme example. But even _one_ new window would
be one too many, in some cases.

cheers

--

Es handelt sich also um ein Zuklappmenu.

Mag sein. Aber ich seh da _gar kein_ Menue.

Weil es zugeklappt ist.

[John]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:08:33 +0100
[e-mail] a/k/a Headless disseminated:

John wrote:

Then the default works for them, it doesn't justify trying to force the
author's preference on users.

Calling all popup (new)
windows "bad" is simplistic, but fundamentally it's a matter of opinion
or personal preference which should be acknowledged as such.

The browser UI is something that belongs to a user, it should be left
alone by site authors. This is not a personal preference, it's a
fundamental principle.

And it's not
really a "content" issue relevant to Berners-Lee's vision of the WWW, but
rather a presentational issue, which technically is off topic for HTML.

It's a UI issue, not presentational.

Seems to me that as browsers have developed they've incorporated into the
UI things that were once the province of authors. In part to give users
choices to override overzealous or unscrupulous authors and to block or
control things they don't like, such as scripts and popups. Seems like in
order to say it's a matter of "choice" the UI should give the user the
power to choose. Then you could say a choice has been made. If the
browser allows it, the question is whether it's good or bad presentation,
isn't it? If the site author finds a way to override the user's settings,
then yeah, he's forcing his preference on users.

Saying "the default works for them" is not the same as saying the default
is a preference.

By trying to open new windows you are taking choice away from users.

That's presumptuous. I'm a user and I don't care if appropriate new
windows are opened. The fact that I don't always use my "open in new
window" button doesn't mean I object if the author does it. If I had a
preference setting in my UI to either allow or disallow *all* new
windows, my present choice would be to leave it on "allow" because in 15
years of web surfing the relative proportion of new windows that
irritated me as opposed to being either innocuous or helpful has been
acceptable. Your choice would obviously be different from mine. What
setting would the majority of users make? I don't know. I think I know
what choice the majority in this group would make. Do you know of any
reliable general population usability studies on this?

I'm not defending opening new windows, nor do I object to a general rule
that says they are inadvisable. But I still think you're projecting a
bias that may not be universally shared or even wanted. For example, I
think the post by Jonathan Brady makes a valid point. Maybe in such cases
the author should provide a mouseover tooltip that says "I think this'll
be better if you open it in a new window, but it's your choice"... And
the AOLers will go "huh?".

John
__________________________________________________ ___
She was only a whiskey maker, but he loved her still.

[Kris]

In article <MP************************@news.sunflower.com>,
John <jc****@delete.email.com> wrote:

Maybe in such cases
the author should provide a mouseover tooltip that says "I think this'll
be better if you open it in a new window, but it's your choice"... And
the AOLers will go "huh?".

My opinion is that if they do not even recognize the situation where a
new window is opened, then how can they possibly benefit from it? If
they go 'huh?' then they have clearly missed it and I see no point in
even mentioning to them 'what to do'.

In my latest project there are no new windows. Only for 'external' links
an indication as such.

--
Kris
kr*******@xs4all.netherlands (nl)
"We called him Tortoise because he taught us" said the Mock Turtle.

[EightNineThree]

"Iris601" <ir********@mid.state.ms.us> wrote in message
news:59**************************@posting.google.c om...

"EightNineThree" <ei************@REMOVEeightninethree.com> wrote in

message news:<bi**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...

"Jane Withnolastname" <Ja**********************@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g7********************************@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:13:05 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:

>In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
>comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
><bj********@charter.net> wrote:
>>On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
>>The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie >>hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the >>first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
>>window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do >>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages. >
>Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
>one extra window as an unfriendly act.

I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site. As I said, this was a long time ago and maybe
this is no longer an accepted (or acceptable) practice.

People tend to think that they can use ' target="_blank" ' to keep people on their sites.
In reality, it is nothing more than an annoyance. It is just another window to close.

Try this out:

http://htmlgoodies.earthweb.com/tutors/html_ref.html

Um, why did you respond to me with that link?

Chalk another one up to Flavell's Law
283 errors
--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.

[Shawn K. Quinn]

John wrote:

In article <ng********************************@4ax.com>, [e-mail]
says...

Brian Jorgenson wrote:

>I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Don't force your preferences on users, they are perfectly capable of
opening a link in a new window if they want to.

Um, actually, many are not. Your average AOLer comes to mind.

Everyone using a browser for which the concept of "opening a new window"
makes any sense can right-click and select "open in new window". Yes, this
capability does exist.

What does *not* exist, is an easy way of defeating this "suggestion" for
those users who would like the link to open in the same window.

--
Shawn K. Quinn

[EightNineThree]

"Els" <el*********@PLEASEtiscali.nl.invalid> wrote in message
news:bi*********@reader1.tiscali.nl...

EightNineThree wrote:

"Jane Withnolastname" <Ja**********************@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g7********************************@4ax.com...

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:13:05 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:

>On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
>The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
>hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
>first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
>window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
>want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.

I read once (a long time ago, so maybe this advice is outdated) that
when you provide a link to a web site that is not your own, you should
have it open in another window so that the user will always HAVE to
come back to your site. As I said, this was a long time ago and maybe
this is no longer an accepted (or acceptable) practice.

People tend to think that they can use ' target="_blank" ' to keep people on their sites.
In reality, it is nothing more than an annoyance. It is just another window to close.

When I'm in site A, and I click on a link to site B, I'd
like that site to appear in a new window.

<snip>

yes, you've just given us an example of "I design for what I want".
Meanwhile, actual statistics from usability studies show that people hate
new windows.
--
Karl Core

Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.

[Els]

EightNineThree wrote:

"Els" <el*********@PLEASEtiscali.nl.invalid> wrote in message
news:bi*********@reader1.tiscali.nl...

When I'm in site A, and I click on a link to site B, I'd
like that site to appear in a new window.
yes, you've just given us an example of "I design for what I want".

No, I have just given an example of what I, as a user, would
like. And I've been taught, that if I do or want something,
the odds are, that I'm not the only one doing or wanting
that :-)
Meanwhile, actual statistics from usability studies show that people hate
new windows.

Any written statistics somewhere on the web that I might read?

--
Els

Mente humana é como pára-quedas; funciona melhor aberta.

[Headless]

John wrote:

Seems like in
order to say it's a matter of "choice" the UI should give the user the
power to choose.
There was no problem before authors began to attempt to take choice away
from users, so in response some browsers now offer users the chance to
regain control, and many users currently do not have that choice of
preventing new windows via their browser.
Then you could say a choice has been made. If the
browser allows it, the question is whether it's good or bad presentation,
isn't it? If the site author finds a way to override the user's settings,
then yeah, he's forcing his preference on users.
Again for most users no such "user's setting" exists.

By trying to open new windows you are taking choice away from users.

That's presumptuous. I'm a user and I don't care if appropriate new
windows are opened.

Sigh: it's not about _you_, it's about letting _users_ decide what they
prefer.
Maybe in such cases
the author should provide a mouseover tooltip that says "I think this'll
be better if you open it in a new window, but it's your choice"... And
the AOLers will go "huh?".

So instead of trying to dictate you suggest patronising users? You need
to get a grip on the central issue here, in the quoted sentence above
the key phrase is "I think", again: it's _not_ about _you_.
Headless

--
Email and usenet filter list: http://www.headless.dna.ie/usenet.htm

[Jonathan Brady]

On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:40:02 -0400, EightNineThree wrote
(in message <bi**********@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>):

yes, you've just given us an example of "I design for what I want".
Meanwhile, actual statistics from usability studies show that people hate
new windows.

care to provide a link to said studies?

--
J Brady

[Mad Bad Rabbit]

Jonathan Brady <jb****@removethisspamkiller.myfmail.com> wrote:

Sometime there is a legitimate reason for opening a new window.

When a user requests additional information about a displayed item in
the main window, it would be wrong from the usability point of view to
wipe the original contents of the window and replace them with a snippet
of text clarifying something.
For that, you could use tooltips. Put an 'info' icon near the displayed
item, whose <img title> attribute contains the additional information.

(If you're willing to use Javascript, you could also use onMouseover()
and onMouseout() to pop up a hidden <div> with the added information
whenever the user positions the mouse on the displayed item. This'll
allow fancier sidebars, but is more complex and less reliable... )

;K

[Headless]

John wrote:

Again for most users no such "user's setting" exists.
I know that. You just missed the point. But moving on: Since Mozilla and
its gecko offspring are works in progress, all who share your objection
to new windows have, I trust, submitted "allow/disallow site to open new
windows" as a feature request. If your objection is as universal as you
claim

You still fail to get the point, it's not about your preference, and
it's not about _my_ preference. It's about allowing _all_ users to
exercise their preference.
Actually, I thought I ran into such a setting somewhere but I can't
find it except for "unrequested" popups. I bet it was one of the separate
popup blockers I tried. I'll see if I can find it for you.

Don't bother, it is a pref setting in Mozilla, but it's not in the GUI,
and I know how to find it thank you.

Sigh: it's not about _you_, it's about letting _users_ decide what they
prefer.

Sigh: you disqualify me as a "user" because...? Need I round up a dozen
acquaintances so I can say "we're users and we don't care"?

You persist in trying to drag this into a "who's right: no new windows
fans, or new windows fans", what you fail to get is that both are right.
Headless

--
Email and usenet filter list: http://www.headless.dna.ie/usenet.htm

[Brian]

Iris601 wrote:

Try this out:

http://htmlgoodies.earthweb.com/tutors/html_ref.html

I really enjoyed reading how the "span flag is a great command."
;-)

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Kris]

In article <wR*******************@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net >,
Brian <us*****@mangymutt.com.invalid-remove-this-part> wrote:

Sigh: you disqualify me as a "user" because...? Need I round up a dozen
acquaintances so I can say "we're users and we don't care"?

Only if you want someone else to roundup her or his aquaintenances who
hate them.

I figure it is not about what exactly your choice is, but about the fact
of having one.

--
Kris
kr*******@xs4all.netherlands (nl)
"We called him Tortoise because he taught us" said the Mock Turtle.

[John]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:22:25 GMT
us*****@mangymutt.com.invalid-remove-this-part a/k/a Brian disseminated:

Iris601 wrote:

Try this out:

http://htmlgoodies.earthweb.com/tutors/html_ref.html

I really enjoyed reading how the "span flag is a great command."
;-)

I seem to recall a time when "flag" was not uncommon usage. I think there
were even usenet discussions about whether they were "flags" or "tags".
Some of the usage was preserved for posterity.

John
__________________________________________________ ____
He had a photographic memory that was never developed.

[Brian]

Kris wrote:

Need I round up a dozen acquaintances so I can say "we're users
and we don't care"?

Only if you want someone else to roundup her or his
aquaintenances who hate them.

I figure it is not about what exactly your choice is, but about the
fact of having one.

Of course. I was just pointing out the futility of anecdotal evidence.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[Brian Jorgenson]

bj********@charter.net (Brian Jorgenson) wrote in message news:<34**************************@posting.google. com>...

Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MP************************@news.odyssey.net> ...

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:

On my web page, I have a few hyperlinks with target frame of _blank.
The hyperlink brings up a second window, but everytime I click on thie
hperlink, it keeps bringing up a new window and not defaulting the the
first active window. How do I make a hyperlink point to the active
window? I don not want the hyperlink to default to the same page. I do
want a second window but only a second window and not multiple pages.

Fist, be aware that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even
one extra window as an unfriendly act.

That said, don't use target="_blank", which means "new window". Use
target="BrianJorgenson" and then if such a window is already open it
will be reused.

This is great target="web page" works but when I click on the
hyperlink again, it does not make the new page active. It still
remains minimized and does not become a full screen.

Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
window.

[Brian]

John wrote:

my present choice would be to leave it on "allow" because in 15
years of web surfing

Oh. 15 years of web surfing? Which web are we talking about here?
The Berners-Lee thingie called WWW that started around 13 years
ago?

With putting kids through college and a heart attack, the last 10
years *feel* like 15, but I should have caught that before posting.
I humbly submit to the lashes.

Corporal punishment? Geez, ciwa* is getting brutal these days. :-D

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

[John]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:15:07 +0100 [e-mail]
a/k/a Headless posted:

You still fail to get the point, it's not about your preference, and
it's not about _my_ preference. It's about allowing _all_ users to
exercise their preference.

You persist in trying to drag this into a "who's right: no new windows
fans, or new windows fans", what you fail to get is that both are right.

I never said that people who don't like them are wrong or that authors
who use them are right. I do think there may be cases where a new window
could be an appropriate design choice. But my main objection to your
remarks was that you seemed to be saying that opening new windows
deprived *all* users of choice or forced an unwanted intrusion on *all*
users. Admittedly you just said _users_ but that seemed to imply a
homogeneous group. If that's not what you meant, then I misunderstood.

Additionally, you made it sound like poor Alex in Clockwork Orange
strapped to the chair with his eyelids propped open and forced to watch
gruesome images flashing on the screen. Maybe that's how you feel.

Unlike Alex, browser users can easily close the unwanted window. Some
would say you shouldn't *have* to close the window in the first place.
I'd say it's no worse than having to "back" out after clicking into a
page that's all flash or javascript or tiny fonts or playing sounds or
any of the other things a user might prefer not to happen when he clicks
a link. Sure, you can set preferences so most of those things don't
work, but you still have to click "back" out of the page once you
realize you've stepped in crap.

Maybe some would say that using target="_blank" is like using javascript
to take over the scroll bar or status bar or to resize the window. I'd
agree those are GUI issues, but I'd distinguish using scripts to alter
the GUI from using valid HTML to invoke normal behavior from the
browser. Yes, I know that just because you can doesn't mean you should.

In another post in this thread, Stan Brown told the OP, "First, be aware
that a _lot_ of people will regard opening up even one extra window as
an unfriendly act."

I have no quarrel with that statement.

Stan went on to say, "That said, don't use target="_blank", which means
"new window". Use target="BrianJorgenson" and then if such a window is
already open it will be reused."

Which finally answered the OP's HTML question.

You've clarified that users who *do" object to new windows *do" have a
choice and *can* block them, at least in Mozilla. Unfortunately, that
preference setting is something most users don't know about. Who needs
to be educated, authors or users? How about both, along with suggestions
to the browser makers?

In the meantime, I really would be interested in your (or anybody's)
opinion about including a "new window" warning in the link's title
attribute.

John

[John]

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:02:10 +0200 ph*************@bb-k.com
a/k/a Philipp Lenssen posted:

If I had the choice, I'd turn off all open-in-new-window behavior (and a
lot of other things). It's just annoying. I can open new windows myself.
I'm not saying most people would know how to do this or care to figure
out. But I doubt that those users are good at handling multiple windows.
(And e.g. Nielsen supports that view -- the issue popped up in two of
his "biggest web mistakes" rants.)

Is this one of the Nielsen articles you refer to?

<http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~pahautan/demo1harj2.htm>

And, Headless knows where the "turn off open in new window" switch in
Mozilla is. He didn't tell me where, but I think this:

<http://www.mozillafoundation.org/catalog/end-
user/customizing/briefprefs.html>

tells how to use this: <about:config>

I think it's a matter of changing the value for
"browser.block.target_new_window" from "false" to "true" (omitting quote
marks), but this is quite possibly beyond my expertise. Anybody who's
reading this will hopefully correct this if I'm wrong.

John

[John]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:52:54 GMT us*****@mangymutt.com.invalid-remove-
this-part a/k/a Brian posted:

John wrote:

With putting kids through college and a heart attack, the last 10
years *feel* like 15, but I should have caught that before posting.
I humbly submit to the lashes.

Corporal punishment? Geez, ciwa* is getting brutal these days. :-D

Just virtual punishment, but the pen is mightier than the whip, er,
something like that... I would've just offered to slap myself silly, but
I was already red-faced.

John

[Stan Brown]

In article <34**************************@posting.google.com > in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Brian Jorgenson
<bj********@charter.net> wrote:

Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
window.

Sigh.

I guess you didn't like the answers you got the first time around.
Several of us both told you how to do this (to the extent that it
can be done) and why opening _any_ extra windows is a bad idea.

Do you really think you'll get different advice this time?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

[Steve Pugh]

bj********@charter.net (Brian Jorgenson) wrote:

Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window. I want
the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
window.

To repeat what has already been said, but which you seem not to have
taken in -

If you use target="_blank" then you open a new window.
So don't use target="_blank".

If you use target="somename" then you reuse the window named somename.
If you want to give focus to that window you will need to use
JavaScript and accept that a portion of your audience does not have
JavaScript enabled.

Now, you said "I don't want a third window". What about those users
who don't want the second window?
If YOU want the second window then you can open the second window
yourself.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Jim Dabell]

Brian Jorgenson wrote:
[snip]

Allright, let me explain this a little better. Let say you visit a web
page with no frames. On this page, there is a hyperlink that opens a
new window (_blank). Now we have 2 windows open. The orginal page and
now the new page opened from the hyperlink. Now I minimize the new
page and the orginal page is still open. Everybody still with me? On
the orginal page, I click on the hperlink again and it brings up a
second window. Now I have the orginal window, a minimized window , and
now a third new window. You see, I don't want a third window.
Why not? At the point at which you minimised the new page, what were you
thinking? If you didn't want that page, then why not close it? If you did
want it, then why would you intentionally replace it with another page?

I want the hyperlink to restore the minimized window back to an active
window.

If you had closed the new window when you were done with it, then a "new new
window" would have popped up.

--
Jim Dabell

[George Lund]

In message <MP************************@news.odyssey.net>, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> writes

Be careful! Some browsers at least use Alt-F4 in the Microsoft
standard way, to mean "Close program". Of course, as part of its war
against standards, Microsoft Internet Explorer does not follow
Microsoft's own published standard in this regard.

FWIW, in MS Windows Alt+F4 has always been 'Close Window' and has never
meant 'close entire program'. (Good thing too as by that logic the
whole of Windows could close if you pressed alt-f4 in an Internet
Explorer window! Thus you will find that ALt+F4 works in dialog boxes
too. Any browser doing as you suggest is wrong.

But in browsers that have an MDI, like Opera, the correct shortcut is
Ctrl+F4, and Alt+F4 will close the whole application window. MDIs are a
different case.

Not that I have contributed much useful here... sorry! :-)

--
George Lund

[Stan Brown]

In article <Dq**************@ntlworld.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, George Lund <ge****@lund.co.uk>
wrote:

In message <MP************************@news.odyssey.net>, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> writes

Be careful! Some browsers at least use Alt-F4 in the Microsoft
standard way, to mean "Close program".
FWIW, in MS Windows Alt+F4 has always been 'Close Window' and has never
meant 'close entire program'. (Good thing too as by that logic the
whole of Windows could close if you pressed alt-f4 in an Internet
Explorer window! Thus you will find that ALt+F4 works in dialog boxes
too. Any browser doing as you suggest is wrong.

Actually, we're both partly right and partly wrong. Windows 98 help,
under "Using shortcut keys in Windows" says Alt-F4 means "Close the
current window or quit a program."
But in browsers that have an MDI, like Opera, the correct shortcut is
Ctrl+F4, and Alt+F4 will close the whole application window. MDIs are a
different case.

This is how I understand things also. My error was thinking that the
MDI interface applied to all programs.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/