This XHTML 1.0 Strict page -- http://www.studiolirico.org/docs/settimana2003.html
has a bilingual title in Italian and English. The principle language of the
page is Italian, so the <html> tag looks like this (w/o the space in the
xmlns URL):
<html xmlns="h ttp://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="it" lang="it">
Within the body, I have English translations for all Italian text, and these
are always contained within elements that bear the lang="en" attribute. But
what about the title? I had originally had a <span> containing the English
translation, but the W3C Validator stated that a title may not contain a
span.
Amittai Aviram 10  3215 
"Amittai Aviram" <am*****@amittai.com> wrote: Within the body, I have English translations for all Italian text, and these
are always contained within elements that bear the lang="en" attribute. But
what about the title?
Specify the language (lang, xml:lang) only for <body> but not for <html>.
--
But thats what FP puts in to the page, so i asume thats correct
Harry H. Arends in microsoft.public.frontpage.client
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote in message
news:Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31. .. "Amittai Aviram" <am*****@amittai.com> wrote:
My question was about the title element because it contains two
different languages.
In practice, I would use whichever language I would consider as
"primary".
Great advice. Thank you.
But don't expect much. Very few browsers or programs care anything
about lang or xml:lang attributes at all [...]
I know, but I like to try to do the right thing. :-) But also, don't some
search engines use the xml:lang or lang attribute?
Amittai
"Lars G. Svensson" <sv******@dbf.ddb.de> wrote: I had similar problems a while ago when I wanted to have an <abbr>
spelled (spelt? Are there any teachers around) out in one language
while having the title attribute read out in another. I guess I
would need some kind of titlelang attribute too (a bit like
hreflang), in order to specify that.
For current HTML, the theoretical answer would be
<abbr title="..." lang="..."><span lang="...">...</span></abbr>
since the lang attribute specifies the language of element content
_and_ of all attributes. Rather impractical.
But don't expect much. Very few browsers or programs care anything
about lang or xml:lang attributes at all,
The argumentation, not to care for or use some kind of markup only
because UAs don't (yet) support it, always leaves me feeling
uneasy.
I would feel uneasy if people spent their time and energy with adding
markup that is practically almost useless - unless they have been told
what the situation is and they have made an informed decision.
We really try to do the *proper* thing, don't we. I try to
produce html which is valid now and in two, ten or a hundred years.
There's no guarantee that your HTML will be valid according to the W3C
recommendation next week even if you obey the spirit and letter of
every current recommendation. In fact, the lang attribute is being
deprecated in favor of xml:lang. Next year they could deprecate both in
favor of something fancier.
Browser support will come eventually, I'm sure,
Will it?
And in fact, the language markup system is poorly designed, in addition
to being virtually unimplemented. My detailed description of this is
available in Finnish only, so I'll just point out an apparent problem -
a small but symptomatic problem. The HTML specification says that the
default value of the lang attribute is unknown. That's very sloppy
language (pun intended). Does it mean that the default value is the
literal string "unknown"? Apparently not, since that would not comply
with the specifications that the HTML specs refer to; they use "und"
(for 'undetermined'). So it seems to say that there _is_ a default
value, but it is unknown - to whom? to anyone? What sense could this
make? What's the use of a default value, if it is unknown? I think I
can guess what they actually meant, but they surely managed to avoid
saying it.
Also: WCAG Guideline 4
<http://http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBC...iated-and-fore
ign> tells the html-writer to "clearly identify changes in the
natural language of a document's text and any text equivalents
(e.g., captions)." If I - for what reason whatsoever - need/want to
conform, I *have* to mark up language changes, and in that case I
have to care about attribute values in a language different from
that of the element content, too. i18n is more difficult than I
though.
But why would you want to conform with that requirement, which vividly
reminds me of Matthew 23:4 -? Even the WAI pages themselves do not
actually conform to WAI requirements, despite showing an icon that
claims such conformance. The page http://www.w3.org/WAI/ even violates
the requirement of specifying the primary language - it would be
_extremely_ simple to add lang="en" into <html>, but they failed to do
even that, yet impose a much more difficult Priority 1 requirement of
specifying _all_ language changes (without trying to satisfy that
requirement on WAI pages, except casually).
Language markup, especially if applied comprehensively for all language
changes, is very difficult if you actually try to use it. As long as it
is described in very abstract terms only, it may look rather easy.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Lars G. Svensson wrote: BTW: My Bible is at home. What does Matthew 23:4 say?
<http://google.com/search?q=%22%CC%E1%F4%E8%E1%DF%EF%F2+21+24%22&ie=I SO-8859-7&oe=ISO-8859-7>
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:28:56 +0200, Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-
hannover.de> wrote: On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Lars G. Svensson wrote:
BTW: My Bible is at home. What does Matthew 23:4 say?
<http://google.com/search?q=%22%CC%E1...+24%22&ie=ISO-
8859-7&oe=ISO-8859-7>
Did Matthew really speak Greek?
--
Lars
"Lars G. Svensson" <sv******@dbf.ddb.de> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.cis.dfn.de... I had similar problems a while ago when I wanted to have an
<abbr> spelled (spelt? Are there any teachers around)
Either one used to be OK, but, in Contemporary Modern Standard English
usage, _spelled_ is the preferred form for both past tense and passive
participle. (_Spelt_, of course, is stillin standard use as a noun to refer
to a certain kind of edible grain.)
Amittai Aviram
(Associate Professor, English and Comparative Literature)
Jan Steffen <ja*********@gmx.net> wrote: Specify the language (lang, xml:lang) only for <body> but not for <html>.
Why not for <html>? I thought it might correspond to the
meta-informations also, if defined for <html>.
Am I wrong there?
No. But the OP wanted to exclude <title> because his <title> has no
unique language.
--
But thats what FP puts in to the page, so i asume thats correct
Harry H. Arends in microsoft.public.frontpage.client
Lars G. Svensson wrote: On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Jukka K. Korpela
<jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
[snip] But why would you want to conform with that requirement, which vividly
reminds me of Matthew 23:4
[snip] BTW: My Bible is at home. What does Matthew 23:4 say?
"They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but
they themselves will not move them with their finger." (RSV)
"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's
shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their
fingers." (AKJV)
I have two other translations handy but they are not considered mainstream
and I downloaded them mainly out of curiosity.
--
Shawn K. Quinn
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:57:05 +0000 (UTC), Jukka K. Korpela
<jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote: "Lars G. Svensson" <sv******@dbf.ddb.de> wrote:
Did Matthew really speak Greek?
Certainly. How else could he have worked as a tax collector in an area
where Greek was the language of the administration?
And certainly the gospel according to Matthew was originally written in
Greek; at least the earliest known copies are in Greek. Whether Matthew
actually wrote the gospel traditionally attributed to him is debatable,
though, but irrelevant in this context.
The Catholic Encyclopedia[0] says:
"According to Eusebius (Hist. eccl., 111, xxxix, 16), Papias said that
Matthew collected (synetaxato; or, according to two manuscripts,
synegraphato, composed) ta logia (the oracles or maxims of Jesus) in the
Hebrew (Aramaic) language, and that each one translated them as best he
could."
And a bit later:
"It is held that the Greek Gospel ascribed to Matthew is a translation of
it [from Aramaic], made by him or by other translators whose names it was
later attempted to ascertain."
[0] http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10057a.htm Section II (no anchors,
unfortunately)
Unfortunately, my Aramaic is just as poor as my Greek...
--
Lars This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
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