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Before You Begin Coding..You Should...?

Hello. It's me again with another question that should generate a lot of
responses.

As mentioned before, I'm working on my first site (hopefully I'll be done
soon and can move on to other stuff...caus I'm tired of looking at the same
graphics). :-)

But, I've been running into all of these different HTML/CSS code debacles,
after which I've been advised to go back and "add 'this' default coding to
your stylesheet", or "IE sees your code like this...Mozilla/Firefox sees it
as this, so you have to do 'this' "....

Only to come to the conclusion that there are some general things that I need
to do or code that I need to always include that will make my life a lot
easier when I been using positioning code and other CSS elements to create my
webpage.

From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
"always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't have
any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/css/200712/1

Dec 21 '07 #1
23 2033
LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
Hello. It's me again with another question that should generate a lot of
responses.

As mentioned before, I'm working on my first site (hopefully I'll be done
soon and can move on to other stuff...caus I'm tired of looking at the same
graphics). :-)

But, I've been running into all of these different HTML/CSS code debacles,
after which I've been advised to go back and "add 'this' default coding to
your stylesheet", or "IE sees your code like this...Mozilla/Firefox sees it
as this, so you have to do 'this' "....

Only to come to the conclusion that there are some general things that I need
to do or code that I need to always include that will make my life a lot
easier when I been using positioning code and other CSS elements to create my
webpage.

From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
"always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't have
any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).
Develop *not* in IE but in a modern web browser.

Make your page legible *before* you add any styling.

Validate HTML and CSS *before* your start hacking away at your design.

Tweak if you must to get MSIE on board. Or better yet, see if you can
approach the design in a way that it is flexible enough where it does
not matter if it is displays differently among browsers. Remember your
visitors don't come to your site with two different browsers fired up
measuring the screen to notice that "the heading text 3 pixels farther
to the left" in one over the other!

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Dec 21 '07 #2
In article <4n********************************@4ax.com>,
Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:11:55 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Michael Vilain
<vi****@NOspamcop.net>
<vi**************************@comcast.dca.giganews .comwrote:
| Regarding IE:
|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html

Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Surely you did not need to quote all the text before the mention
of this link to express your love. It is important to cut down
the prattle on these ngs. As for getting the image (permission is
different issue), you just right click and save it to disk. If
you want some huge version of it to make a poster for your kids
it should not take a mo to knock one up for print quality. Being
Xmas and all, and if you or MV can't or won't do it, tell me. <g>

--
dorayme
Dec 22 '07 #3
LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
"always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't have
any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).
Test in all the major browsers *as you go along*. It's a fatal mistake
to test exlusively in one browser and then test in other browsers as an
afterthought.

After a while, you start to remember what will cause problems between
different browsers and you will begin to instinctively avoid the problem
areas.

The golden rule, in my experience, is to keep it simple. Don't start
using arcane browser hacks or the obscenely anal and over-complicated
CSS layouts on sites such as alistapart.com. The last thing you want to
do is come back to a site months later to make changes and suddenly
realise you have no idea how the layout works.
Dec 22 '07 #4
In article
<vi**************************@comcast.dca.giganews .com>,
Michael Vilain <vi****@NOspamcop.netwrote:
In article
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <do************@optusnet.com.auwrote:
In article <4n********************************@4ax.com>,
Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:11:55 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Michael Vilain
<vi****@NOspamcop.net>
<vi**************************@comcast.dca.giganews .comwrote:
| Regarding IE:
|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html
>
Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
... As for getting the image (permission is
different issue), you just right click and save it to disk. If
you want some huge version of it to make a poster for your kids
it should not take a mo to knock one up for print quality. Being
Xmas and all, and if you or MV can't or won't do it, tell me. <g>

Regarding the web-design image. It's not mine. I wandered across it on
a web-design news group.
Actually, I have seen it before. I had been meaning to change it
around a bit, partly to make it more earthy Australian but I need
more motivation <g>

--
dorayme
Dec 22 '07 #5
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
>| As for getting the image (permission is
| different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.
It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 9 '08 #6
In article <of********************************@4ax.com>,
Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| As for getting the image (permission is
| different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.

It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.
It is not nice to know that you are so blinded by your holier
than thou preoccupations that you fail to distinguish between the
two issues of technical and moral as a logical distinction. Not
even with my help - look at what I said in brackets. Do you think
putting things in brackets means they are regarded as unimportant
full stop by the writer? As with many of you Holier than thou
moral types it usually does no good explaining.

But fool me, I will: Permission is one issue, technical how is
another issue. Discussing the technical aspect does not mean one
condones theft. If someone asks how to steal something and you
tell them, that is one thing. But if someone asks how to do
something that can be perfectly legal in any number of contexts
then there is not much wrong in telling them especially if one
actually reminds them of the legal issue. Of course, with types
like you, everyone and anyone is immediately under the suspicion
of the worst motivations.

Why don't you apologise? Or email me privately so I can get
better satisfaction at this outrage of yours. Please use capital
letters in the subject field so I notice it and use "Hit me Baby
with the filthiest language ever heard on earth!"

--
dorayme
Jan 10 '08 #7
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:23:59 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
>| In article <of********************************@4ax.com>,
| Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
|
| On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
| comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
| <do************@optusnet.com.au>
| <do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| >
| | As for getting the image (permission is
| | different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.
| >
| It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.
[snip a lot of froth and bubble to try and justify IP theft]
>| Why don't you apologise? Or email me privately so I can get
| better satisfaction at this outrage of yours. Please use capital
| letters in the subject field so I notice it and use "Hit me Baby
| with the filthiest language ever heard on earth!"
What a strange mating ritual you have?
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 11 '08 #8
In article <ko********************************@4ax.com>,
Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:23:59 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| In article <of********************************@4ax.com>,
| Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
|
| On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
| comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
| <do************@optusnet.com.au>
| <do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| >
| | As for getting the image (permission is
| | different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.
| >
| It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.

[snip a lot of froth and bubble to try and justify IP theft]
You snip it, of course, because you are not big enough to look at
the distinction being made. Either you have a mental incapacity
or you speak in bad faith. Let me repeat it for the benefit of
anyone that might be tempted by your lowness:

"Permission is one issue, technical how is another issue.
Discussing the technical aspect does not mean one condones theft.
If someone asks how to steal something and you tell them, that is
one thing. But if someone asks how to do something that can be
perfectly legal in any number of contexts then there is not much
wrong in telling them especially if one actually reminds them of
the legal issue. Of course, with types like you, everyone and
anyone is immediately under the suspicion of the worst
motivations".

--
dorayme
Jan 11 '08 #9
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:11:40 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
>| In article <ko********************************@4ax.com>,
| Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
|
| On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 11:23:59 +1100, in
| comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
| <do************@optusnet.com.au>
| <do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| >
| | In article <of********************************@4ax.com>,
| | Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
| |
| | On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
| | comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
| | <do************@optusnet.com.au>
| | <do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| | >
| | | As for getting the image (permission is
| | | different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.
| | >
| | It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.
| >
| [snip a lot of froth and bubble to try and justify IP theft]
|
| You snip it, of course, because you are not big enough to look at
| the distinction being made.
So you'd have no problem if someone wrote:
If you walk into a store and see a product you like just put it into
your pocket then walk out of the store (you might be stopped by
security personnel).
>| Either you have a mental incapacity
| or you speak in bad faith. Let me repeat it for the benefit of
| anyone that might be tempted by your lowness:
|
| "Permission is one issue, technical how is another issue.
| Discussing the technical aspect does not mean one condones theft.
| If someone asks how to steal something and you tell them, that is
| one thing.
In law, isn't that called accessory to the fact/crime?
>| But if someone asks how to do something that can be
| perfectly legal in any number of contexts then there is not much
| wrong in telling them especially if one actually reminds them of
| the legal issue.
Theft, in any form, is illegal.
>| Of course, with types like you, everyone and
| anyone is immediately under the suspicion of the worst
| motivations".
Well then you'd have no problem in giving the url of one of your
websites that you've designed so I can copy the site, change a few
items and then call it my own.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 11 '08 #10
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:54:43 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
>| In article <9k********************************@4ax.com>,
| Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
|
| <do************@optusnet.com.au>
[un-attributed snippage noted]
>| | [snip a lot of froth and bubble to try and justify IP theft]
| |
| | You snip it, of course, because you are not big enough to look at
| | the distinction being made.
| >
| So you'd have no problem if someone wrote:
| If you walk into a store and see a product you like just put it into
| your pocket then walk out of the store (you might be stopped by
| security personnel).
| >
|
| You snipped it again.
No I didn't. Stop being dishonest.
>| Who can judge now how little your
| conclusion follows from my words?
|
| You seem quite unable to see things in context. It is almost
| never ok to "just put" something in your pocket and "walk out of
| a store".
What do you mean "almost never ok". Is one form of shoplifting ok
while another form isn't?
>| It is very often quite ok to grab a pic from a website
| and stick it on your desktop. I do it on a daily basis with my
| own pictures and my own webpages as a lazy way to avoid going
| through my file system.
With your own IP you are free to do with it as you like. Other
people's IP is a completely different story.
>| I know it appears mean to say this but you have insulted me and
| when this happens, I relax all the rules.
|
| You, Jeff North, appear to have an arrested moral development.
Oh I see, I have "an arrested moral development" because I asked
permission to use an image, from a web page. Where as you would just
take it.

[snip irrelevant babblings]
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 '08 #11
Jeff North wrote:
>|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html

Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
FYI

http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/archive...f_modern_web_d

http://www.google.com/search?query=t...0design&num=50

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Can you be a closet claustrophobic?
Jan 12 '08 #12
On 2008-01-12, Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:54:43 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<do************@optusnet.com.au>
<do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
[...]
>>| You seem quite unable to see things in context. It is almost
| never ok to "just put" something in your pocket and "walk out of
| a store".

What do you mean "almost never ok". Is one form of shoplifting ok
while another form isn't?
[...]
>>| It is very often quite ok to grab a pic from a website
| and stick it on your desktop. I do it on a daily basis with my
| own pictures and my own webpages as a lazy way to avoid going
| through my file system.

With your own IP you are free to do with it as you like. Other
people's IP is a completely different story.
You're being quite silly here. If people were that concerned about
people stealing their precious IP they wouldn't put their pictures on
the web in the first place any more than shops leave their merchandise
lying around unattended in the street.

Unless a website specifically asks you not to do particular things then
it's perfectly OK to save an image and put it on your desktop. You had
to download the thing to view it in your browser in the first place so
where are you going to draw the line here? It's like a pie shop trying
to charge passers-by for smelling the pies.
Jan 12 '08 #13
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:52:08 -0600, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Ben C <sp******@spam.eggs>
<sl*********************@bowser.marioworldwrote:
>| On 2008-01-12, Jeff North <jn******@yahoo.com.auwrote:
| On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 08:54:43 +1100, in
| comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
| ><do************@optusnet.com.au>
| ><do**********************************@news-vip.optusnet.com.auwrote:
| [...]
| >>| You seem quite unable to see things in context. It is almost
| >>| never ok to "just put" something in your pocket and "walk out of
| >>| a store".
| >
| What do you mean "almost never ok". Is one form of shoplifting ok
| while another form isn't?
| [...]
| >>| It is very often quite ok to grab a pic from a website
| >>| and stick it on your desktop. I do it on a daily basis with my
| >>| own pictures and my own webpages as a lazy way to avoid going
| >>| through my file system.
| >
| With your own IP you are free to do with it as you like. Other
| people's IP is a completely different story.
|
| You're being quite silly here. If people were that concerned about
| people stealing their precious IP they wouldn't put their pictures on
| the web in the first place any more than shops leave their merchandise
| lying around unattended in the street.
|
| Unless a website specifically asks you not to do particular things then
| it's perfectly OK to save an image and put it on your desktop. You had
| to download the thing to view it in your browser in the first place so
| where are you going to draw the line here? It's like a pie shop trying
| to charge passers-by for smelling the pies.
Ignorance of the laws is no excuse. Try using the above argument in
front of a judge and see how far it gets you.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 '08 #14
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 23:49:21 -0500, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Ed Mullen <ed@edmullen.net>
<7L******************************@comcast.comwrote :
>| Jeff North wrote:
|
| >|
| >| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html
| >
| Love it!!!! LOL
| Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
| course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
|
| FYI
|
| http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/archive...f_modern_web_d
|
| http://www.google.com/search?query=t...0design&num=50
Thanks. I finally found a site which left the copyright notice intact.
http://blog.labnotes.org/2006/06/27/...rn-web-design/
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 '08 #15
In article <sl*********************@bowser.marioworld>,
Ben C <sp******@spam.eggswrote:
It's like a pie shop trying
to charge passers-by for smelling the pies.
<g>

--
dorayme
Jan 12 '08 #16
On 12 Jan, 10:55, Jeff North <jnort...@yahoo.com.auwrote:
Thanks. I finally found a site which left the copyright notice intact.http://blog.labnotes.org/2006/06/27/...rn-web-design/
So you think that stealing content is OK, provided that you label te
stolen content as "This was the copyright of someone else, until I
stole it" ?
Jan 12 '08 #17
Ben C wrote:
>
Unless a website specifically asks you not to do particular things then
it's perfectly OK to save an image and put it on your desktop.
Possession is 9/10 of the law? Hmmm...
It's like a pie shop trying
to charge passers-by for smelling the pies.
The way I see it, you're allowed--encouraged even--to smell the pies
while you're in front of the pie shop. I think what you've done, though,
is walked away with a bite of it. Sounds like stealing to me.

And this is getting pretty off-topic for this group, dontcha think?

--
Berg
Jan 12 '08 #18
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:43:27 -0800 (PST), in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Andy Dingley
<di*****@codesmiths.com>
<2c**********************************@z17g2000hsg. googlegroups.com>
wrote:
>| On 12 Jan, 10:55, Jeff North <jnort...@yahoo.com.auwrote:
|
| Thanks. I finally found a site which left the copyright notice intact.http://blog.labnotes.org/2006/06/27/...rn-web-design/
|
| So you think that stealing content is OK, provided that you label te
| stolen content as "This was the copyright of someone else, until I
| stole it" ?
No. I can now write to the author of the image and ask permission.
If I can't get a response from the author I will probably NOT use the
image as I would like it for a classroom presentation (not for my
desktop).
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 '08 #19
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:04:14 -0600, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Bergamot
<be******@visi.com>
<5u*************@mid.individual.netwrote:

[snip]
>| And this is getting pretty off-topic for this group, dontcha think?
Maybe/maybe not. Copyright should be a concern for all web developers.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jn******@yourpantsyahoo.com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
Jan 12 '08 #20
In article <5u*************@mid.individual.net>,
Bergamot <be******@visi.comwrote:
Ben C wrote:

Unless a website specifically asks you not to do particular things then
it's perfectly OK to save an image and put it on your desktop.

Possession is 9/10 of the law? Hmmm...
He said putting it on your desktop, not grabbing it and selling
it or using it to become an overnight multibillionaire. I think a
bit more hmmming is needed.

Best not to archive or save a webpage for offline either, and it
is probably unsafe to open an image in a new tab, that is getting
awfully close to desktoping it[*]. And be careful of arranging
the normal web page in any way that loses the context of the
picture. And do not take any motivation or type of use into
account, even desktoping for personal observation and remembrance
could land you in trouble with the tut tut brigade.

On the web, possession is a 10/10th licence to do many things
that would be classified as fair use. This does not mean any use
whatsoever.
It's like a pie shop trying
to charge passers-by for smelling the pies.

The way I see it, you're allowed--encouraged even--to smell the pies
while you're in front of the pie shop. I think what you've done, though,
is walked away with a bite of it. Sounds like stealing to me.
To put a pic from a webpage on the desktop is stealing? Christ
almighty! Save us Dear Lord from these rigid moralists who never
think past their own noses.

Talking of noses, if one did smell a nice pie smell when passing
a pie shop and bottled it for private enjoyment and utility in a
strict diet regime when home, I would like to see a wig and gown
as the pie shop's legal team trying to get a quid off the hapless
non-customer.

There was a marvellous BBC TV production that featured an
unsuccessful outraged wigged gent putting up the moralist's case:

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/cinema/...rley-affair.sh
tml>

---------------
[*] Reminds me of http://preview.tinyurl.com/35wkx7

--
dorayme
Jan 12 '08 #21
Jeff North wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:04:14 -0600, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Bergamot
<be******@visi.com>
<5u*************@mid.individual.netwrote:
>>| And this is getting pretty off-topic for this group, dontcha think?

Maybe/maybe not. Copyright should be a concern for all web developers.
Perhaps, but what does it have to do with stylesheets?

--
Berg
Jan 13 '08 #22
On 21 déc 2007, 19:57, dorayme <doraymeRidT...@optusnet.com.auwrote:

As for getting the image (permission is
different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.
The image at
http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html
originally comes from
Alan Foreman from poisonedminds.com
and was named web-breakdown.png
and it had an attribution of such and a copyright notice attached,
written on it.

In all fairness, this should ... err... must be said in broad
daylight.

Regards, Gérard
Jan 14 '08 #23
On 2008-01-14, dorayme <do************@optusnet.com.auwrote:
In article
<dc**********************************@v29g2000hsf .googlegroups.co
m>,
[...]
>The image at
http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html
originally comes from
Alan Foreman from poisonedminds.com
and was named web-breakdown.png
and it had an attribution of such and a copyright notice attached,
written on it.

In all fairness, this should ... err... must be said in broad
daylight.

Regards, Gérard

Well, because you have mentioned this, I have just reread the
thread to see if I might have been too cavalier.

Perhaps I was - given the absurd world in which I live.

It simply did not occur to me that anyone would feel precious
about this particular pictorial joke. Any more than any verbal
joke. Jokes are bandied about and god help us all when one is
required by the moral brigade to always remember who first made a
joke or to respect it if someone gets all precious about it.
For something like that I might attribute it if I could remember whose
it was. Otherwise I might say "someone came up with this". Or nothing.
But I wouldn't actually pass it off as my own work.

A verbal joke on the other hand I would just re-use or adapt without
crediting it. Jokes just wouldn't be funny if you had to keep crediting
them to people. Professional comedians steal each others jokes all the
time. It's just the way it works.

The same goes largely for philosophical ideas as well. Some very
academic books try to credit everything all the time but it makes them
so turgid as to be practically unreadable. You also often find the
author is so hamstrung by angst about misattributing things that he's
unable to say much at all.

Ideas were always meant to be shared freely, that's how they develop.
Claiming credit or charging money for work you didn't do on the other
hand is obviously unfair, and that's what intellectual property laws are
there for.

There will always be grey areas where you need to get legal advice or
err on the side of caution (although saving a picture from the web and
putting it on your desktop is not one of them).
Jan 14 '08 #24

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