Fonts Appear Larger in IE7

[rfox]

When viewed in several different browsers, both Mac and PC, my fonts
are consistent in size -- EXCEPT when viewed in IE7. In IE7, the
fonts appear larger. Is there a way to ensure consistency in size,
such as specifying font-size in ems, pixels or points?

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

rf**@scoe.net wrote:

When viewed in several different browsers, both Mac and PC, my fonts
are consistent in size -- EXCEPT when viewed in IE7. In IE7, the
fonts appear larger. Is there a way to ensure consistency in size,
such as specifying font-size in ems, pixels or points?

A URL would help immensely.

Read this first, and forget about pixels and points:
http://k75s.home.att.net/fontsize.html

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[John L.]

rf**@scoe.net wrote:

When viewed in several different browsers, both Mac and PC, my fonts
are consistent in size -- EXCEPT when viewed in IE7. In IE7, the
fonts appear larger. Is there a way to ensure consistency in size,
such as specifying font-size in ems, pixels or points?

Are you sure the browser's View -Text Size setting isn't set to
something other than 'Medium' (the default)?

[rfox]

A URL would help immensely.<

http://www5.scoe.net/ccsesa/index/dropDown.html

Read this first, and forget about pixels and points:http://k75s.home.att.net/fontsize.html<

I'm currently using ems, but I'm thinking pixels might be more
consistent with IE, specifically in the navbar area.

>Are you sure the browser's View -Text Size setting isn't set to something other than 'Medium' (the default)?<

Yes, thanks. That was the first thing I checked.

[Andy Dingley]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:20:30 -0700, rf**@scoe.net wrote:

>In IE7, the
fonts appear larger. Is there a way to ensure consistency in size,
such as specifying font-size in ems, pixels or points?

Nope, it's an IE bug. If you have a high-res screen, the tendency is to
adjust the desktop fonts to give a usable size through the control
panel. IE then applies this correction factor for a second time, making
the "100% of default" font size actually larger than the desktop fonts.

There's no fix for it, as there's no way (AFAIK) to read the desktop
setting from within the browser. Best fix is an IE-only conditional
comment and setting the default size to 80% rather than 100%. That's a
compromise, but it's better on average than 100%.

(search the archives too)

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

rf**@scoe.net wrote:

A URL would help immensely.<

http://www5.scoe.net/ccsesa/index/dropDown.html

>Read this first, and forget about pixels and points:
http://k75s.home.att.net/fontsize.html

I'm currently using ems, but I'm thinking pixels might be more
consistent with IE, specifically in the navbar area.

Pixels cannot be resized by IE users. People with vision problems will
not like your site.

You missed the part about using 100%. IE has a bug if you use em in the
body, as your page shows when going from Medium to Large.

Hopefully, you plan to get rid of all the *images* of text.

body { font-size: 100%; }
h1 { font-size: 175%; } /* Adjust heading sizes as appropriate */
h2 { font-size: 150%; }
h3 { font-size: 135%; }
h4 { font-size: 125%; }
..legalese { font-size: 85%; } /* Footers and the "fine print" */

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[Jim Moe]

On 10/15/07 04:49 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:

>
There's no fix for it, as there's no way (AFAIK) to read the desktop
setting from within the browser. Best fix is an IE-only conditional
comment and setting the default size to 80% rather than 100%. That's a
compromise, but it's better on average than 100%.

And it will only work for those who have applied the desktop font size
correction. For everyone else, the text size will be too small.

--
jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)

[Andy Dingley]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:10:14 -0700, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.comwrote:

>Best fix is an IE-only conditional
comment and setting the default size to 80% rather than 100%. That's a
compromise, but it's better on average than 100%.

And it will only work for those who have applied the desktop font size
correction. For everyone else, the text size will be too small.

That's what the word "average" means here. As desktop resolutions get
bigger, users _are_ using the font-size setting in the control panel.

The actual scaling needed may be 75% or 67%, but limiting this to 80%
means that it's not impossibly unreadable for those who don't scale.

[Jim Moe]

On 10/16/07 01:42 am, Andy Dingley wrote:

>

>>Best fix is an IE-only conditional
comment and setting the default size to 80% rather than 100%. That's a
compromise, but it's better on average than 100%.

And it will only work for those who have applied the desktop font size
correction. For everyone else, the text size will be too small.

That's what the word "average" means here. As desktop resolutions get
bigger, users _are_ using the font-size setting in the control panel.

"Many statisticians have drowned in a river whose average depth is 1
meter." (paraphrased adage)

--
jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)

[rfox]

Thanks to everyone who offered input. I sincerely appreciate it.

Btw, yeah, the images of text were just for reference, it was the
navigation menu we were focusing on.

Best regards.

-Ray

[Andy Dingley]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 11:59:08 -0700, Jim Moe
<jm***************@sohnen-moe.comwrote:

"Many statisticians have drowned in a river whose average depth is 1
meter." (paraphrased adage)

So what's your solution?

[Jim Moe]

On 10/16/07 03:26 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:

>

> "Many statisticians have drowned in a river whose average depth is 1
meter." (paraphrased adage)

So what's your solution?

There is the one these groups always promote: font-size: 100%. If the
visitor finds the text size too large, she can reduce it.
If you have a target market that is known to use IE7 on high resolution
monitors (what determines high resolution?) and most users have modified
the desktop text size, your solution is a good one.

--
jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)

[Bergamot]

Jim Moe wrote:

>
If you have a target market that is known to use IE7 on high resolution
monitors (what determines high resolution?) and most users have modified
the desktop text size, your solution is a good one.

I don't see the logic here.

I would think that these people have already encountered "too large
type" on plenty of other sites before they got to yours, and would have
adjusted their browser default accordingly if it really bothered them.

If they're savvy enough to modify their desktop text size, why wouldn't
they be savvy enough to modify their browser defaults?

--
Berg

[Andy Dingley]

On 17 Oct, 05:34, Jim Moe <[e-mail]:

There is the one these groups always promote: font-size: 100%.

That (in its simple form) isn't the best advice - because of this IE
bug. Obviously it's still better advice than points or pixels though.

However we have to live with IE, warts and all. As the OP posted, "
Fonts Appear Larger in IE7" - they already have a problem with this.

If the visitor finds the text size too large, she can reduce it.

In that case, why not just use pixels?

The whole point of font-size: 100%; is that the user has _already_
chosen an appropriate default font size, and that's how they want to
see things. If users have to adjust, then we've blown it.

Maybe, one day, the majority of sites will already offer 100% to all
users, rather than <font size=3.141as at present. IE users will by
then have learned to compensate by already setting their browsers to
be smaller than "Text Size: Normal", to compensate.

No doubt the day afterwards, IE8 will come out and simply fix the bug.
Then our compensations will have an overall negative effect.

If you have a target market that is known to use IE7 on high resolution
monitors (what determines high resolution?) and most users have modified
the desktop text size, your solution is a good one.

You have a point in terms of "not pandering to IE's bugs". font-size:
80%; _is_ wrong, even if it's wrapped up in a conditional comment. I'm
not claiming it's right, just that it's not as bad for "typical" users
today.

The worst thing about it is that it's inconsistent with the ideal
practice of 100%. As things are (when sites are poor at setting good
defaults) then 80% gives "a best average" result. If sites improved
though, such that 100% became "typical", then being different to this
would have a worse result than offering the best approximation of the
intention - because by that time, "average" IE users would also have
learned to adjust their browser settings.

However for the current state of affairs, 80% delivers a better size
for more people, more of the time, than 100%. And as you say, there's
always their own adjustments.
Then there's eBay. Why do so many auction sellers think that <font
size=6 align=center color=pink is ever a good idea?

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Andy Dingley wrote:

Jim Moe wrote:

>There is the one these groups always promote: font-size: 100%.

That (in its simple form) isn't the best advice - because of this IE
bug. Obviously it's still better advice than points or pixels
though.

Andy, were you referring to the IE (5/6?, 7?) bug where if the body font
size was expressed as "1em", then user picking from Normal to Larger,
etc would *double* the displayed size?

Cured by: body { font-size: 100%; }

Then there's eBay. Why do so many auction sellers think that <font
size=6 align=center color=pink is ever a good idea?

...on a pretty dark blue background... ;-)

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[Steve Swift]

However we have to live with IE, warts and all. As the OP posted, "

Fonts Appear Larger in IE7" - they already have a problem with this.

I've noticed a growing number of sites that offer explicit font size
choices. I sure wish that Google Mail would.

Combined with a simple cookie to store the choices (so IE7 choices will
affect only IE7, even if I also have IE6/Opera/Firefox/Netscape/Safari)
this seems nigh perfect to me.

--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

[Bergamot]

Steve Swift wrote:

>
I've noticed a growing number of sites that offer explicit font size
choices. I sure wish that Google Mail would.

Simple solution - use a browser or email client that gives you more
control over your own font choices. That's pretty much anything other
than IE.

--
Berg

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Steve Swift wrote:

I've noticed a growing number of sites that offer explicit font size
choices.

Most (all?) of those sites do it because their developers do not know
how to design a site that "uses the visitors default size."

One of my ISPs does it: http://www.att.net/
Three A's to click on. If you examine the three different CSS files, you
will find:

http://www.att.net/css/font_small.css
body, td, th {
font-size: 65%;

http://www.att.net/css/font_med.css
body, td, th {
font-size: 75%;

http://www.att.net/css/font_large.css
body, td, th {
/*font-size: 95%;*/
font-size: 92%;

Harrumph. 92% of my default is *large*? (Which they lowered from 95%)

And yes, I have had many discussions with them in their internal help
newsgroups as to why this is not good. They won't listen.

I sure wish that Google Mail would.

Using a competent browser, you should be able to increase/decrease the
size yourself. It works for me; a simple Control+Plus in Firefox or 120%
in Opera, for example.

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[Andy Dingley]

On 17 Oct, 14:56, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<[e-mail]:

Andy, were you referring to the IE (5/6?, 7?) bug where if the body font
size was expressed as "1em", then user picking from Normal to Larger,
etc would *double* the displayed size?

Cured by: body { font-size: 100%; }

No, I wasn't. Different bug.

[Bergamot]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

>
Using a competent browser, you should be able to increase/decrease the
size yourself. It works for me; a simple Control+Plus in Firefox or 120%
in Opera, for example.

Or set the browser's minimum font size, a preference setting available
in both gecko and Opera, to whatever works best for you. Constantly
bumping text up and down is a PITA. Set the minimum size and you rarely
have to adjust it. Makes browsing a more pleasant experience.

On those very few occasions when I really need to see the original type
size, I reset the minimum but always set it back afterwards.

--
Berg

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Bergamot wrote:

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

>Using a competent browser, you should be able to increase/decrease
the size yourself. It works for me; a simple Control+Plus in Firefox
or 120% in Opera, for example.

Or set the browser's minimum font size, a preference setting
available in both gecko and Opera, to whatever works best for you.

I tend not to do that, mostly because I like to see what a developer has
done - especially when we are checking/critiquing sites here. For
regular surfers, it's a good idea.

Constantly bumping text up and down is a PITA. Set the minimum size
and you rarely have to adjust it. Makes browsing a more pleasant
experience.

True. I was assuming that Steve was just having a problem with the Gmail
site, being the one he mentioned.

Actually, for me, the Gmail pages are ok, but there are thousands of
others that are not. <shrug>

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[Chris Hughes]

In message <9n********************@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Beauregard T. Shagnasty <a.*********@example.invalidwrites

>Steve Swift wrote:

>I've noticed a growing number of sites that offer explicit font size
choices.

Most (all?) of those sites do it because their developers do not know
how to design a site that "uses the visitors default size."

One of my ISPs does it: http://www.att.net/
Three A's to click on. If you examine the three different CSS files, you
will find:

http://www.att.net/css/font_small.css
body, td, th {
font-size: 65%;

http://www.att.net/css/font_med.css
body, td, th {
font-size: 75%;

http://www.att.net/css/font_large.css
body, td, th {
/*font-size: 95%;*/
font-size: 92%;

Harrumph. 92% of my default is *large*? (Which they lowered from 95%)

And yes, I have had many discussions with them in their internal help
newsgroups as to why this is not good. They won't listen.

>I sure wish that Google Mail would.

Using a competent browser, you should be able to increase/decrease the
size yourself. It works for me; a simple Control+Plus in Firefox or 120%
in Opera, for example.

Or just a numeric pad '+' in Opera...
--
Chris Hughes
"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk

[Sherman Pendley]

Steve Swift <St***********@gmail.comwrites:

I've noticed a growing number of sites that offer explicit font size
choices.

So have I - I take my business elsewhere, to someone who doesn't insult
me by telling me that I'm too stupid to operate my browser. I also will
not eat at Hardee's, because of their "men are too stupid to feed them-
selves" commercials.

sherm--

--
Web Hosting by West Virginians, for West Virginians: http://wv-www.net
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net

[Steve Swift]

So have I - I take my business elsewhere, to someone who doesn't insult

me by telling me that I'm too stupid to operate my browser.

Ah, but I am too stupid to operate my browser, it would seem. Thank you
for pointing out my inadequacy. I used to suffer from an inferiority
complex, but you've cured me! I now know that I'm inferior.

Perhaps you'd deign to tell me how I can alter the font size presented
by Google mail in my Opera 9.23 browser? Every other page I visit is
perfect, but for some reason, Google mail is presented in a font smaller
than that I can comfortably read, and smaller than the minimum size
preference that I have set in Opera.

--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

[dorayme]

In article <47******@news.greennet.net>,
Steve Swift <St***********@gmail.comwrote:

Perhaps you'd deign to tell me how

Hey buddy! You talking to me? Do I know you?

I can alter the font size presented
by Google mail in my Opera 9.23 browser? Every other page I visit is
perfect, but for some reason, Google mail is presented in a font smaller
than that I can comfortably read, and smaller than the minimum size
preference that I have set in Opera.

Are you saying there is a web page in your browser that you
cannot read comfortably? In most browsers you can change the font
size on a tactical basis by simple keyboard commands. (There is a
true blue here who does it via his mouse). If you have
strategically set a minimum font, then it seems it is not working
for you.

URL?

--
dorayme

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Steve Swift wrote:

Perhaps you'd deign to tell me how I can alter the font size presented
by Google mail in my Opera 9.23 browser?

What do you have set for Opera's minimum font size?

Tools Preferences Advanced tab Fonts
Minimum font size (pixels) [ nn ]

Type a '20' in that field, and click OK.

The gmail pages use antiquated <fonttags, and not CSS for styling.

Is pressing the numeric Plus key or using the Zoom control difficult for
you?

Every other page I visit is perfect,

I find that hard to believe! <g>

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

[Rik Wasmus]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:59:48 +0200, Beauregard T. Shagnasty
<a.*********@example.invalidwrote:

>Every other page I visit is perfect,

I find that hard to believe! <g>

Hehe, indeed. I had no idea perfection was that widespread, maybe I should
get my act together. Then again 'every other page _I_ visit' might be a
very select few...
--
Rik Wasmus

[dorayme]

In article <47******@news.greennet.net>,
Steve Swift <St***********@gmail.comwrote:

Is pressing the numeric

I forgot to state
And yes,

Would it be very hard for you to quote properly? Who said what? A
bit of the context to give an idea for those of us with Alzheimic
newsreaders? I know you are a bit of a rebel. How about rebelling
against yourself, just a wee bit?

--
dorayme

[Bergamot]

Steve Swift wrote:

>
My minimum is set to 10 pixels,
which I find OK for occasional use (Labels under icons and stuff like
that) but Gmail uses this minimum-sized font for the whole of my email,
which is too much, for me.

Make your minimum larger. My minimum is set to 85% of my default. That's
the smallest I find comfortable for reading body text, since that's what
matters, not the fine print.

--
Berg

[rf]

"Bergamot" <be******@visi.comwrote in message
news:5n************@mid.individual.net...

Make your minimum larger. My minimum is set to 85% of my default.

Why not 100%?

--
Richard.

[Andreas Prilop]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, rf wrote:

>Make your minimum larger. My minimum is set to 85% of my default.

Why not 100%?

Because you don't want SMALL, SUB, SUP, etc. in the same size
as the "normal" text.

--
In memoriam Alan J. Flavell
http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...Alan.J.Flavell

[Steve Swift]

Make your minimum larger. My minimum is set to 85% of my default. That's

the smallest I find comfortable for reading body text, since that's what
matters, not the fine print.

I set the minimum to the value I chose because it is the minimum that I
can read. I value some things coming out this size (and my own webpages
generate such small text for rarely used parts) but as far as Google
Mail is concerned, this font is used for about 95% of the page - it is
their normal size. If I set my minimum higher then some pages (including
some of my own) come out with no font size contrast.

Which is why I'd be happier if Google gave me a font size option.
Presumably everything on the page would scale based on my choice, and
I'd be able to read the page comfortably whilst maintaining the
contrasting sizes.

I'll be able to fix it myself when I've learned enough CSS - opera
allows me to set a per-host individual style sheet to be applied to
their pages.

--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

[Felix Miata]

On 2007/10/19 16:34 (GMT+0200) Andreas Prilop apparently typed:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, rf wrote:

>>Make your minimum larger. My minimum is set to 85% of my default.

>Why not 100%?

Because you don't want SMALL, SUB, SUP, etc. in the same size
as the "normal" text.

On typical pages it really doesn't make much difference what your minimum
size is until it gets down below about 80% or so. Above that, everything but
a few headings will be whatever your minimum is set to. Or, in the case of
Clagnut-styled pages visited in Gecko browsers, it'll be mostly larger than
your minimum, and larger even than 100% of your default.
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/Clagnut/eonsSS.html
--
"The basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings
we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St.
Paul. President Harry S. Truman

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/