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Getting rid of frames

I want to overhaul http://www.s-tisch.ch/. The layout is fine IMHO and I
need to keep it that way. The implementation, however, is totally ugly. I
intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based solution. I seriously doubt
that it can be achieved without breaking the layout. Do you think it's
possible at all? You seem to have the expertise to make such a judgement...

--
Marcel Stör, http://www.frightanic.com
Blog: http://frightanic.wordpress.com
Skype: marcelstoer
Jun 3 '07 #1
7 4478
Scripsit Marcel Stör:
I intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based
solution.
That's pointless. Frames break the idea of the Web. It does not matter how
you do that.
I seriously doubt that it can be achieved without breaking
the layout.
Without looking at your site, I can say from the evidence given that the
layout needs to be broken. Any solution that avoid that is just waste of
everyone's time; it does not help to do the wrong thing in different ways.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Jun 3 '07 #2
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Scripsit Marcel Stör:
>I intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based
solution.

That's pointless. Frames break the idea of the Web. It does not
matter how you do that.
What idea would that be? Can't one cure some of the flaws of the <frame>
with CSS while still keeping the positive aspects of the layout in general?
>I seriously doubt that it can be achieved without breaking
the layout.

Without looking at your site, I can say from the evidence given that
If you don't even look at my site what evidence is there to judge upon? Just
that someone mentioned the oh so evil word "frames"?
the layout needs to be broken. Any solution that avoid that is just
waste of everyone's time; it does not help to do the wrong thing in
different ways.
--
Marcel Stör, http://www.frightanic.com
Blog: http://frightanic.wordpress.com
Skype: marcelstoer
Jun 3 '07 #3
Marcel Stör wrote:
I want to overhaul http://www.s-tisch.ch/. The layout is fine IMHO and I
need to keep it that way. The implementation, however, is totally ugly. I
intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based solution. I seriously doubt
that it can be achieved without breaking the layout. Do you think it's
possible at all? You seem to have the expertise to make such a judgement...
It should be quite simple to do-- the site appears just to be a
two-column layout with a header and footer which is a classic CSS
layout. For instance, you might like to have a look at
http://www.strictlycss.com/examples/...n-layout-9.asp which is
pretty much the same (although it has a third menu (in green) at the top
which you wouldn't need).

As all the pages and menus are, presumably, separate files, the easiest
way of bringing it all together would probably be with some form of
include script. Taking your pages, I might make a file called which
would do this:

<html[...] <body>
<div class="Top Bar">
<? include ("header.html"); ?>
</div>
<div class="Left Bar">
<? include ("navigation.html"); ?>
</div>
<div class="Body">

and then include that at the start of each page (e.g. at the start of
studio.html etc.). You could then do a similar thing for the footers. It
would probably take a little time to strip all the extra tags out of
each page, but shouldn't be too hard.

Best wishes,

Jacob
Jun 3 '07 #4
Jacob Head wrote:
Marcel Stör wrote:
>I want to overhaul http://www.s-tisch.ch/. The layout is fine IMHO
and I need to keep it that way. The implementation, however, is
totally ugly. I intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based
solution. I seriously doubt that it can be achieved without breaking
the layout. Do you think it's possible at all? You seem to have the
expertise to make such a judgement...

It should be quite simple to do-- the site appears just to be a
two-column layout with a header and footer which is a classic CSS
layout. For instance, you might like to have a look at
http://www.strictlycss.com/examples/...n-layout-9.asp which is
pretty much the same (although it has a third menu (in green) at the
top which you wouldn't need).
Thanks a bunch for the link. Some nice examples there...
However, they're all a bit different from what I'm really after. I want to
keep the ~30px padding inside the viewport (dark grey in my example). Also,
I need the "box" to stretch to the entire width & height of the viewport.
Last but not least, except for the content area all elements should remain
static (i.e. "in place") when the viewport is resized or the content
requires scrolling.
In my example this is achieved with a frameset inside an iframe, which is
double ugly.

Thanks for your help.
Marcel

--
Marcel Stör, http://www.frightanic.com
Blog: http://frightanic.wordpress.com
Skype: marcelstoer
Jun 3 '07 #5
Marcel Stör wrote:
Jacob Head wrote:
>Marcel Stör wrote:
>>I want to overhaul http://www.s-tisch.ch/. The layout is fine IMHO
and I need to keep it that way. The implementation, however, is
totally ugly. I intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based
solution. I seriously doubt that it can be achieved without breaking
the layout. Do you think it's possible at all? You seem to have the
expertise to make such a judgement...
It should be quite simple to do-- the site appears just to be a
two-column layout with a header and footer which is a classic CSS
layout. For instance, you might like to have a look at
http://www.strictlycss.com/examples/...n-layout-9.asp which is
pretty much the same (although it has a third menu (in green) at the
top which you wouldn't need).

Thanks a bunch for the link. Some nice examples there...
However, they're all a bit different from what I'm really after. I want to
keep the ~30px padding inside the viewport (dark grey in my example).
Also, I need the "box" to stretch to the entire width & height of the viewport.
That should be possible. The easiest way (although you might get
told-off by some for adding more <div>s than strictly required...) would
be to enclose your whole content (header, columns and footer) in a <div>
which has { margin: 30px; }. Then you would set your body
background-color to be gray. That would put a gray, 30 pixel wide, space
between your content and the edge of the screen, as happens now.
Last but not least, except for the content area all elements should remain
static (i.e. "in place") when the viewport is resized or the content
requires scrolling.
In my example this is achieved with a frameset inside an iframe, which is
double ugly.
Hmm...this is more difficult and I'm not sure whether it's something
that's totally desirable, particularly for viewers with smaller
resolutions. For instance, at the moment, your site is quite hard to
read on an 800x600 monitor: http://www.jacob-head.com/screenshot.png
because everything has to be fitted into one screen. If you let it
scroll it would be easier to read. Only using CSS, the closest you could
probably get would be by using "position" to set your navigation, header
and footer 30px from the periphery of the screen and giving them a
"z-index" of 1 so that they appear over the top of your content. The
result would be something like this:
http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=202/202.css but with the navigation
etc. instead of the decorative borders. That said, I think having the
content expanding vertically would be an improvement for usability.

Best wishes,

Jacob
>
Thanks for your help.
Marcel
Jun 3 '07 #6
Marcel Stör wrote:
Jacob Head wrote:
>Marcel Stör wrote:
>>I want to overhaul http://www.s-tisch.ch/. The layout is fine IMHO
and I need to keep it that way. The implementation, however, is
totally ugly. I intend to replace all frames with a CSS-based
solution. I seriously doubt that it can be achieved without breaking
the layout. Do you think it's possible at all? You seem to have the
expertise to make such a judgement...
It should be quite simple to do-- the site appears just to be a
two-column layout with a header and footer which is a classic CSS
layout. For instance, you might like to have a look at
http://www.strictlycss.com/examples/...n-layout-9.asp which is
pretty much the same (although it has a third menu (in green) at the
top which you wouldn't need).

Thanks a bunch for the link. Some nice examples there...
However, they're all a bit different from what I'm really after. I want to
keep the ~30px padding inside the viewport (dark grey in my example). Also,
I need the "box" to stretch to the entire width & height of the viewport.
Last but not least, except for the content area all elements should remain
static (i.e. "in place") when the viewport is resized or the content
requires scrolling.
In my example this is achieved with a frameset inside an iframe, which is
double ugly.

Thanks for your help.
Marcel
Whatever you do, make it so the design is fluid enough to not produce
this mess when I increase the font size to suit my screen, viewport and
eyesight combination:

http://edmullen.net/temp/cap301.jpg

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Jun 4 '07 #7
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Marcel Stör wrote:
Thanks a bunch for the link. Some nice examples there...
However, they're all a bit different from what I'm really after. I want to
keep the ~30px padding inside the viewport (dark grey in my example). Also,
I need the "box" to stretch to the entire width & height of the viewport.
Last but not least, except for the content area all elements should remain
static (i.e. "in place") when the viewport is resized or the content
requires scrolling.
In my example this is achieved with a frameset inside an iframe, which is
double ugly.
That can be done using CSS, and can be made "work" on your browser window
and display settings (but not on every other with same code). But using
CSS alternative means to get effect of frames is even more inaccessible
that frames. There is commands that allow navigating within and between
frames in browsers. There is also somewhat easy way to open page in
normal sized window instead stamp size frame, as well as change size of
frame to better fill or fit browser window.

Only real benefit on CSS based frames over conventional frames is that it
can be turned off easier. I don't think that is very good base for
redesign.

What you need to do is to get rid of frames, not to reimplement them in
less robust latest technology.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr<http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Jun 4 '07 #8

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