I got email from a customer last night, complaining
that ' was showing up in my boat building forum.
That encoding seems to get translated to a single quote in all other
browsers.
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
and *many* others.
Does this mean everybody will have to fiddle with their websites,
in order to accomodate Microsoft? Or will this be a boon to Firefox
and Opera? 19  5005  Sa***************@gmail.com wrote:
I got email from a customer last night, complaining
that ' was showing up in my boat building forum.
That encoding seems to get translated to a single quote in all other
browsers.
All other browsers are going out of their way to please you :-) http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2003/07..._curse_of_apos
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like
http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
and *many* others.
They should have hired me to write their html and css :P
Does this mean everybody will have to fiddle with their websites,
in order to accomodate Microsoft? Or will this be a boon to Firefox
and Opera?
I think that those who want the majority of people to see their sites
as intended, will choose the first option. I think it will be a boon
to those web designers who code and test properly, rather than to
Firefox or Opera. If my own sites would break in IE7, I'd fix them. So
far, that was hardly any trouble at all :-)
--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
accessible web design: http://locusoptimus.com/
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like
http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
So I hope that O2 will get a professional web-developer instead of the
amateur they have now. It is an obvious amateur because he/she broke
the rule:
1) do note base your solution on some particular UA bug.
2) if you did base your solution on some particular UA bug, it is
*very* bad; but at least watch each and every update of this UA,
because the bug can be fixed at any time.
O2 site, CSS sheets:
* html
.....
So called "holly hack". What a f is it doing here?
<http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/09/02/460115.aspx(see the date
of the post)
I'm not an IE lover, but I have zero pity to O2 design problems - and
to their web-developer (if soon fired).
What is O2 anyway?
Also, what is the right encoding for representing
a single quote?
''' or what?
' shows up as a single quote in IE6 Firefox
Opera and Safari, but apparently not in IE7.
Sa***************@gmail.com wrote:
What is O2 anyway?
>From your original post:
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like
http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
and *many* others.
The linked page shows how o2.co.uk "suffered" from IE7. I have shown
that they suffered of a neglegeable web-developer who used "holly hack"
instead of conditional comments as descent people do. O2 is the
involved company name (number 2 in subscript).
I missed though how would it be related to your apos problem.
Also, what is the right encoding for representing
a single quote?
''' or what?
Apostrophe is not a single quote, it is another entity and normally you
don't encode apostrophes: both HTML and XML are aware of ' character
and they treat it properlly.
You may want to show an actual page to get an idea of what and how are
doing.
VK wrote:
You may want to show an actual page to get an idea of what and how are
doing.
Thank you. Your responses have (however indirectly) led to solving
my problem. I was "cleaning" user supplied forum-form input with
php's addslashes function. A better choice, it turns out, is
the htmlentities function.
addslashes adds a slash before all single quotes.
htmlentities does not (doesn't need to in my context).
I realize this is an html group, but php is how I was generating the
html.
And I wasn't doing it the right way. I'm a self-taught hacker and
not a professional webby, so I don't always get it right.
VK wrote:
>http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
2) if you did base your solution on some particular UA bug, it is
*very* bad; but at least watch each and every update of this UA,
because the bug can be fixed at any time.
O2 site, CSS sheets:
* html
....
So called "holly hack".
FYI, that isn't the holly hack, though I suppose you could have been
referring to the properties in those *html selectors.
<http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/09/02/460115.aspx>
You do realize that since IE7 doesn't recognize *html anymore it will
ignore those selectors completely? IOW, the *html hack now targets IE6
and below, so IE7 processes the same rules as other browsers. And since
MS has fixed most of the bugs that required those hacks in the first
place, IE7 should do exactly that.
That doesn't mean IE is now error-free, of course. ;) And in O2's case,
the stylesheet is too ugly for me to figure out why IE7 does what it
does, but it may well be a logic error in the CSS itself, rather than an
IE7 bug. The layout doesn't do so well in gecko either, at least not at
my usual window size.
MS's recommendation to only use conditional comments should be taken
with a grain of salt, I think. MS is self-serving, after all. They
haven't been the most clueful organization in the past. Why should I
trust them to know what's best now?
--
Berg Sa***************@gmail.com wrote:
I got email from a customer last night, complaining
that ' was showing up in my boat building forum.
No such entity in HTML. It's an XML entity (needed because XML doesn't
always like it bare) and so it ended up in XHTML.
If you're working with HTML, just don't use it.
If you're working with pure XHTML, the web isn't ready for you.
If you're working with XHTML Appendix C, you're advertising that as
text/html and so you still can't use it.
Bergamot wrote:
MS's recommendation to only use conditional comments should be taken
with a grain of salt, I think. MS is self-serving, after all. They
haven't been the most clueful organization in the past. Why should I
trust them to know what's best now?
Because it is an official documented IE feature.
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp>
This way it will never be "fixed" and if it will and it will break you
corporate web-site, the fix will be done on Microsoft's expences :-)
It seems to me that the whole idea of IE bugs usage in CSS was not
caused by some technical demand: conditional comments have been
available since IE 5.0 for all platforms.
IMHO bug exploits have been used by some developers because it served
for a double purpose: 1) to make a necessary fix for IE and 2) to make
some kind of a written statement "I hate IE and it's buggy".
While the 1st is required, the 2nd should be avoided for paid business
solutions (while OK for private pages).
VK wrote:
Bergamot wrote:
>MS's recommendation to only use conditional comments should be taken
with a grain of salt, I think. MS is self-serving, after all. They
haven't been the most clueful organization in the past. Why should I
trust them to know what's best now?
Because it is an official documented IE feature.
Which means nothing. IE has lots of documented features that I would
never use. To me, conditional comments fall into the "IE-centric" web
mindset, the equivalent of browser sniffing with JavaScript. They
pollute the HTML on every page instead of polluting just 1 CSS file with
a little browser-targeted code.
But I see you have a different opinion. TEHO
--
Berg
Bergamot wrote:
To me, conditional comments fall into the "IE-centric" web
mindset, the equivalent of browser sniffing with JavaScript. They
pollute the HTML on every page instead of polluting just 1 CSS file with
a little browser-targeted code.
But what these CSS fixes over bugs exploits are targeted to? To
Firefox? (shudder) You are using an IE-specific coding and workarounds
but you don't want to name that UA or it's going to be "browser
sniffing"? The "browser sniffing" if you are trying to determine UA's
brend and *take some actions* upon the result. Conditional comments are
exactly what (un)"holly hack" is, just based on documented features
instead of obscure bugs and hacks. Otherwise it's all the same: every
UA simply takes the part it "sees" and understands.
On Tuesday 14 November 2006 11:50, Sa***************@gmail.com
[Sa***************@gmail.com] wrote in message
<11**********************@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>
I got email from a customer last night, complaining
that ' was showing up in my boat building forum.
That encoding seems to get translated to a single quote in all other
browsers.
Why would ' be used in HTML when the symbol itself is valid?
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like
http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
and *many* others.
Does this mean everybody will have to fiddle with their websites,
in order to accomodate Microsoft? Or will this be a boon to Firefox
and Opera?
Is IE7 failing on W3C-validated HTML4.01-Strict websites with correct CSS2
syntax, proper document structure and a well designed fluid layout?
Hopefully this will be a kick up the arse to all those who design
non-standard websites created for a specific browser and display size.
"VK" <sc**********@yahoo.comwrites:
>Also, what is the right encoding for representing
a single quote?
''' or what?
Apostrophe is not a single quote, it is another entity and normally you
don't encode apostrophes: both HTML and XML are aware of ' character
and they treat it properlly.
You may want to show an actual page to get an idea of what and how are
doing.
While ' (good old ASCII 27) is OK is most text, Unicode now recommends
that U+2019 otherwise known as "right single quote" be used as the
"punctuation apostrophe" (the one used in plain text: "we've been here
before" is the example they use.)[1][2]
Of course, this can represented as ’ which looks odd (in the
HTML) but can hardly be faulted now. I discovered this after railing
against some M$ software that had peppered a document with U+2019
characters and I had to call back a say that there was really no
problem with it! If your document is served as UTF-8 then you just
use U+2019 in source -- no need for a character entity.
(There is a small problem with it, and that is that the glyph used in
some faces in small sizes does not render as well as the traditional '
but that can not be blamed on the encoding.)
[1] http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr8/i...ntics%20Errata
[2] http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/quotes.html
--
Ben.
..oO(Sa***************@gmail.com)
>Thank you. Your responses have (however indirectly) led to solving
my problem. I was "cleaning" user supplied forum-form input with
php's addslashes function. A better choice, it turns out, is
the htmlentities function.
htmlspecialchars() should be enough. Use ENT_QUOTES as its second
parameter if you want to convert both single and double quotes. http://www.php.net/htmlspecialchars
Micha
In message <11**********************@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>, Tue,
14 Nov 2006 03:50:57, "Sa***************@gmail.com"
<Sa***************@gmail.comwrites
>I got email from a customer last night, complaining
that ' was showing up in my boat building forum.
That encoding seems to get translated to a single quote in all other
browsers.
So I did a little Google searching. It appears there
are hundreds of layout issues with IE7 that have broken
many high dollar sites, like
http://www.etre.com/blog/2006/11/ie7..._redux/o2shop/
and *many* others.
Does this mean everybody will have to fiddle with their websites,
in order to accomodate Microsoft? Or will this be a boon to Firefox
and Opera?
For me, ' does not work in a new WinXP sp2 IE6
--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk DOS 3.3, 6.20 ; WinXP.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/- FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
PAS EXE TXT ZIP via <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/00index.htm>
My DOS <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/batfiles.htm- also batprogs.htm.
Scripsit Ben Bacarisse:
While ' (good old ASCII 27) is OK is most text,
No, it's only OK for text that consists of code in some computer language or
something similar, i.e. in notations where it is the _defined_ character to
be used.
You might use it for simplicity or for robustness, in this poor world that
is in so many ways character challenged, but that's a different issue.
Unicode now recommends
that U+2019 otherwise known as "right single quote" be used as the
"punctuation apostrophe" (the one used in plain text: "we've been here
before" is the example they use.)[1][2]
That's just a technical formulation of a typographic principle that is
centuries old.
(There is a small problem with it, and that is that the glyph used in
some faces in small sizes does not render as well as the traditional '
but that can not be blamed on the encoding.)
There's nothing traditional with the ASCII character '. It derives from
early typewriter cacography, which was based on the mechanical and
economical limitations that also created some other monstrosities like using
"-" as a hyphen, as a dash, as a minus sign, and for a few other purposes as
well.
Typographically, it is questionable whether anything worse than ' is
possible. What may happen in small sizes is that the orthographically
correct apostrophe becomes similar to the ASCII apostrophe, perhaps looking
like a slanted ASCII apostrophe. But hardly worse.
--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca") http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
There's nothing traditional with the ASCII character '. It derives from
early typewriter cacography, which was based on the mechanical and
economical limitations that also created some other monstrosities like using
"-" as a hyphen, as a dash, as a minus sign, and for a few other purposes as
well.
On old typewriters, the number 1 was written using the lowercase letter
l, as well.
--
Dan
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrites:
Scripsit Ben Bacarisse:
>While ' (good old ASCII 27) is OK is most text,
No, it's only OK for text that consists of code in some computer
language or something similar, i.e. in notations where it is the
_defined_ character to be used.
You might use it for simplicity or for robustness, in this poor world
that is in so many ways character challenged, but that's a different
issue.
Maybe we have a language confusion. By "OK" I just meant that it is
not exactly wrong to use it. I did not want to suggest that there is
no better character to use. People fall back on it as an apostrophe
all the time (for the reasons you give) and I did not want to come
over as suggesting that they were wrong to do so. I notice that you
use it on your pages.
>Unicode now recommends
that U+2019 otherwise known as "right single quote" be used as the
"punctuation apostrophe" (the one used in plain text: "we've been here
before" is the example they use.)[1][2]
That's just a technical formulation of a typographic principle that is
centuries old.
>(There is a small problem with it, and that is that the glyph used in
some faces in small sizes does not render as well as the traditional '
but that can not be blamed on the encoding.)
There's nothing traditional with the ASCII character '.
I was referring to the character's traditional use as an apostrophe in
computer texts. I was not suggesting that any ASCII character has any
tradition outside of computer (or maybe comms) use.
It derives
from early typewriter cacography, which was based on the mechanical
and economical limitations that also created some other monstrosities
like using "-" as a hyphen, as a dash, as a minus sign, and for a few
other purposes as well.
Typographically, it is questionable whether anything worse than ' is
possible.
Indeed. There are only two reasonable choices and we both agree which
is better so I don't even think it is questionable: nothing could
be worse than ' (typographically). The trouble is, this does not say
anything about how bad using ' is. I think you think its use is worse
than I do since you started by saying it was only OK when it is the
defined character (in computer code for example).
What may happen in small sizes is that the orthographically
correct apostrophe becomes similar to the ASCII apostrophe, perhaps
looking like a slanted ASCII apostrophe. But hardly worse.
I was just complaining about how the character is rendered on my
system in small sizes. I did not make that clear enough. I think the
problem is quite likely limited to my system (and similar Linux
setups). Whether it looks worse is just a matter of opinion. Of
course, other people may have had problems making out the slanted
apostrophe in some small fonts on other systems, but if so they are
not saying!
--
Ben.
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Dan" <da*@tobias.namewriting
in news:11**********************@f16g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com:
>
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>There's nothing traditional with the ASCII character '. It derives
from early typewriter cacography, which was based on the mechanical
and economical limitations that also created some other monstrosities
like using "-" as a hyphen, as a dash, as a minus sign, and for a few
other purposes as well.
On old typewriters, the number 1 was written using the lowercase
letter l, as well.
Yes, and there was a cents sign above the 6. I guess there's no need for
that - there is hardly anything less than a dollar anymore (in the US at
least).
--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
<Sa***************@gmail.comwrote:
: I got email from a customer last night, complaining that '
: was showing up in my boat building forum.
Try ' instead of ' ?
--
Jim Carlock
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