WebDesign

[rich]

i'd like to pursue a career path in website design. I'm not a
programmer. I have no experiance in writting client side or server side
scripts. I have created my own website..i handcoded it using a graphic
editor, not using the wysiwyg part of the editor. the scripts i have
for the site i downloaded edited a bit and loaded then in the page.

i'd like to learn more.however the formal classroom at the moment is
not an option.also to the authors here what skills will i need to be
employable. where would i go on the web to learn them

rich.

[Haines Brown]

You will undoubtedly get some useful replies from the experts, but for
color, I'm replying as someone who some years ago toyed with the idea
of web production as a source of a little extra retirement income, and
I finally decided against it.

My situation was much like your own. I marked up text as HTML by hand
and knew nothing of script writing beyond modifying JavaScript models
I picked up on line.

One reason I gave up the project was because as wysiwyg editors were
beginning to come out, they could produce results that were
spectacular in the eyes of potential clients, but were really junk. I
was not interested in competing on this level in part because the pro
bono work I was doing (and continue to do) was intended to be
utilitarian rather than flashy, and relied on use of templates.

Another problem is that the technical requirements are
significant. You really have to learn scripting and CSS, and probably
also have some database skills and master a variety of applications,
etc. Back in the 90s anyone could learn enough HTML in a few hours to
produce a useful page, but today, especially with browser
inconsistencies and greater need for meeting standards, it has become
a more serious matter. You can acquire these skills, of course, on
your own if you have the luxury to invest the time before you can
expect any contracts.

Yet another problem is that web page production also really requires
aesthetic skills. That is, would require a company that combines
artistic talent with technical knowledge. I may be wrong here, but I
think good web page production really requires at least two people.

Given that the field was flooded with amateurs at one point (and
still?), you may also need a promotion person, especially to buffer
your relation with difficult clients. If an amateur with wysiwyg
software can produce a spectacular-looking page that many potential
clients will consider impressive, you really have to have something
else going for you other than just technical or artistic skills, such
as addressing a niche part of the market.

One disability I have is that I now avoid JavaScript and frames and
use strict rather than transitional markup. I also don't like to
promote my results in competition with others. This purist (snobbish)
attitude is a major handicap.

I admit my complete ignorance of today's career potential for website
design, but my impression is that the field is not an easy one to
crack. If the necessary skills are combined and promoted, it seems
possible, but I imagine it is not not very likely if pursued by one
person, with your skills, and in the short run. I hope others can
offer you a more positive assessment.

--

Haines Brown
KB1GRM
ET1(SS) U.S.S. Irex 482

[Stan Brown]

Thu, 06 Apr 2006 11:18:07 GMT from Haines Brown
<br****@teufel.hartford-hwp.com>:

Back in the 90s anyone could learn enough HTML in a few hours to
produce a useful page, but today, especially with browser
inconsistencies and greater need for meeting standards, it has become
a more serious matter.

One which is, alas, ignored by even the biggies.

My nomination for Hall of Shame: toyota.com

I visit the page; it nags at me about Javascript and won't display
navigational links. Reluctantly I turn on Javascript and reload; it
nags at me about Flash and won't display _anything_.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Stan Brown wrote:

My nomination for Hall of Shame: toyota.com

I visit the page; it nags at me about Javascript and won't display
navigational links. Reluctantly I turn on Javascript and reload; it
nags at me about Flash and won't display _anything_.

Hmmm. Interesting point. Yesterday, I had reason to try going to
www.iiyama.com, but I couldn't get *anywhere* with it.

Then, I had tried www.iiyama.co.uk, and things got quite a bit better.

Having just read your posting, I went back to www.iiyama.com with
javascript disabled. And, lo and behold, it actually worked - in so
far as I was able to select my country of interest and actually browse
some web content (instead of watching a flash status display that was
claiming to be loading, but doing nothing much else).

When I turned js back on and reloaded, the page became unusable again.

A curious counter-example to the usual experience. Not that either
way is particularly friendly, of course.

Google proved to be a much better way of getting what I needed from
them, than were their own web sites! I located it at their .co.jp web
server!! It certainly wasn't in the place that their printed manual
said it would be!!! There has to be some kind of lesson in here, but
I doubt they are listening.

[Jack]

Haines Brown wrote:

[some well-considered comments; among them:]

Yet another problem is that web page production also really requires
aesthetic skills. That is, would require a company that combines
artistic talent with technical knowledge. I may be wrong here, but I
think good web page production really requires at least two people.
It's perfectly possible for a geek to also have taste. However "graphic
design" seems to be a discipline that attracts non-geeks, or even
anti-geeks; so you can find a geek who can design something that looks
nice, but I think it's hard to find a geek who can design something that
looks like it was done by a graphic designer.

More importantly, though: if the site relies on the interaction of a
more-or-less complex set of components, then the site-designer is
engaged in engineering. In my opinion, it is engineering that is best
done in a team of at least two people. I am currently working on my own,
and I feel sorely the lack of some person to review my engineering
decisions.
I admit my complete ignorance of today's career potential for website
design, but my impression is that the field is not an easy one to
crack. If the necessary skills are combined and promoted, it seems
possible, but I imagine it is not not very likely if pursued by one
person, with your skills, and in the short run. I hope others can
offer you a more positive assessment.

It's a crowded field. If you can get a client and a project through
private contacts, without having to compete with others, you may be able
to establish yourself in a niche. I know people with very 'thin'
skill-sets, who have been working for the same list of 2 or 3 clients
for over 10 years now on website development.

--
Jack.

[Neredbojias]

To further the education of mankind, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@physics.gla.ac.uk> declaimed:

On Thu, 6 Apr 2006, Stan Brown wrote:

My nomination for Hall of Shame: toyota.com

I visit the page; it nags at me about Javascript and won't display
navigational links. Reluctantly I turn on Javascript and reload; it
nags at me about Flash and won't display _anything_.

Hmmm. Interesting point. Yesterday, I had reason to try going to
www.iiyama.com, but I couldn't get *anywhere* with it.

Then, I had tried www.iiyama.co.uk, and things got quite a bit better.

Having just read your posting, I went back to www.iiyama.com with
javascript disabled. And, lo and behold, it actually worked - in so
far as I was able to select my country of interest and actually browse
some web content (instead of watching a flash status display that was
claiming to be loading, but doing nothing much else).

When I turned js back on and reloaded, the page became unusable again.

A curious counter-example to the usual experience. Not that either
way is particularly friendly, of course.

Google proved to be a much better way of getting what I needed from
them, than were their own web sites! I located it at their .co.jp web
server!! It certainly wasn't in the place that their printed manual
said it would be!!! There has to be some kind of lesson in here, but
I doubt they are listening.

The "lesson", meaning the point, is simple. If you use javascript (or
Flash, etc.) in anything but a user-friendly way, you will lose business.
The entrepreneurial, pseudo-yuppie type sleazeballs are just too stupid to
realize this. In a non-identical but similar macrocosm, let me mention
"Microsoft"...

--
Neredbojias
Infinity can have limits.

[sonnystarks]

rich wrote:

i'd like to pursue a career path in website design.
i'd like to learn more.however the formal classroom at the moment is
not an option.where would i go on the web to learn them

rich.

The main resource I would look into is New Horizons. They have several
online courses including HTML/Dhtml
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...tKeyword=html),
asp.net
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...yword=asp.net),
intro to PHP
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...xtKeyword=php),
javascript
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...rd=javascript),
xml/xsl
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...xtKeyword=xml),
ado
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...xtKeyword=ado),
and sql
(http://www.newhorizons.com/content/c...xtKeyword=sql),