What browsers are using to test?

[Alan Silver]

Hello,

Just wondered what range of browsers, versions and OSs people are using
to test pages. Also, since I don't have access to a Mac, will I have
problems not being able to test on any Mac browsers, or is there some
other way of checking?

TIA

--
Alan Silver
(anything added below this line is nothing to do with me)

[IEDesigner]

"Chris Beall" <Ch*********@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:am*****************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...

IEDesigner wrote:

"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx.invalid> wrote in message
news:9Y**************@nospamthankyou.spam...

Hello,

Just wondered what range of browsers, versions and OSs people are using
to test pages. Also, since I don't have access to a Mac, will I have
problems not being able to test on any Mac browsers, or is there some
other way of checking?
Alan Silver

<snip>

I agree with your general assessment. The numbers may not be precise,
but the vast majority use IE.
<snip>
Just because something is of concern only to
developers doesn't mean it has no value. And the world at large may
well take note if a site doesn't work at least minimally in their
browser, whatever it is.
<snip>
The world uses IE, they don't even know there are other browsers.

I think that's a bit overstated. Firefox seems to be coming up in
casual conversations more and more, even among the folks you list below.
Things change.

Speculation: What will happen when IE 7 comes out and all the users of
Windows 98 (I'm one) realize that:

<snip>
- They can't get IE 7 without upgrading the OS.
<snip>
My guess is they will ask their techno-buddies what to do and will end
up with Firefox or Opera or ????? But nobody really knows.
Chris Beall

IE7 is still in beta. IMO MS is not barred from offering it or an alternate
solution to earlier OS's. In any event the man in the street is using
whatever came on his machine. When you say "And the world at large may well
take note if a site doesn't work at least minimally in their browser..." You
imply that sites will fail completely if they aren't coded for browsers
other than IE. I see no reason to believe that. We must agree to disagree on
the idea that the person in the street discuses browsers or has any idea
that there are browsers other than IE. If you want to spend time testing AND
coding for 10% of all users I have no argument with that. All PC's with WIN
have IE preinstalled. The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on
this point too. As for what the future holds I can only say "maybe".
IEDesigner

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:21:49 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

In any event the man in the street is using
whatever came on his machine.
Not anymore s/he is. I find that over one third of my visitors nowadays
uses something other the IE (mainly Firefox).
If you want to spend time testing AND
coding for 10% of all users I have no argument with that.
Once you get the hang of it, you'll find that coding for anything out
there takes hardly any more time, than coding for a specific browser (I
wouldn't even know how to do that, actually). Especially if a site/page is
well structured and the author is using proper markup, making a site
'work' in the range of browsers available (from graphical browsers to
text- and aural browsers or screen readers).
The world uses IE
Maybe your world does. There must be a reason for that :-)
As for what the future holds I can only say "maybe".

One cannot see (far) in to the future. One can only work with current
knowledge and to current (de facto) standards, and hope that any
developments of future browsers go with the (de facto) standards of today
and of tomorrow. If all join in, you as an author can't fail.
--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |

[IEDesigner]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5owbyw9l8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:21:49 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

In any event the man in the street is using
whatever came on his machine.

Not anymore s/he is. I find that over one third of my visitors nowadays
uses something other the IE (mainly Firefox).

If you want to spend time testing AND
coding for 10% of all users I have no argument with that.

Once you get the hang of it, you'll find that coding for anything out
there takes hardly any more time, than coding for a specific browser (I
wouldn't even know how to do that, actually). Especially if a site/page is
well structured and the author is using proper markup, making a site
'work' in the range of browsers available (from graphical browsers to
text- and aural browsers or screen readers).

<snip>

As for what the future holds I can only say "maybe".

One cannot see (far) in to the future. One can only work with current
knowledge and to current (de facto) standards, and hope that any
developments of future browsers go with the (de facto) standards of today
and of tomorrow. If all join in, you as an author can't fail.
--
______PretLetters:

IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE. If you had 300,000,000 visitors a
month I would find you observation persuasive. Look here for 300,000,000
hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of
those people use IE. We likely have different ideas about what constitutes
"well structured" and "proper markup". As I said I have no argument with
those who want to spend their time testing and coding for browsers other
than IE. Thank you for your concern about my success as an author, a 90%
chance is good enough for me.
IEDesigner

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:01:56 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5owbyw9l8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 16:21:49 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

In any event the man in the street is using
whatever came on his machine.
Not anymore s/he is. I find that over one third of my visitors nowadays
uses something other the IE (mainly Firefox).

One cannot see (far) in to the future. One can only work with current
knowledge and to current (de facto) standards, and hope that any
developments of future browsers go with the (de facto) standards of
today
and of tomorrow. If all join in, you as an author can't fail.

IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE. If you had 300,000,000 visitors a
month I would find you observation persuasive. Look here for 300,000,000
hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
O, that's rather smart. I don't try to click on a URI that starts with
'https', especially if all the rest is as obscure as this one is. I don't
trust what I can't see. Where would this address lead me?
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that
90% of
those people use IE.
Well, this used to be what people took for granted. Used to be.
We likely have different ideas about what constitutes
"well structured" and "proper markup". As I said I have no argument with
those who want to spend their time testing and coding for browsers other
than IE.
And as I said: it is _not_ an extra efford to do all browsers authoring
instead.
Thank you for your concern about my success as an author, a 90%
chance is good enough for me.

90% As in 2/3? :-) And that for todays market? How about 100% of todays
and the futures markets with no extra efford, just by authoring according
to (de facto) standards? I'd put my money with the latter.
--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner wrote :

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

<snip>

You did say
"this notion that standards will somehow make sites future proof is
laughable."
and you added (among several/others)
"I've got a suggestion for devotees to standards. Use plain text (...)"
That was your opinion and your conclusion.
Your opinion goes against a measurable and reliable trend regarding
browser releases in the last 8 years that anyone can verify and measure
reliably. IMO, the best policy when editing a webpage is to write
according to web standards (valid markup code, valid CSS code, strict DTD).

I went against nothing except your incorrect conclusions

about other browsers versus IE's market share.
IEDesigner

We disagree on that issue but not by much :) . I think IE5+ is in the
low 80%'s (worldwide); you think IE represents 90% based only on that
unique webstats TheCounter.com. Such difference, hypothetically
speaking, can easily mean/refer to/be explained by user agent string
spoofing in secondary browsers. Icab 2+ can do that, Opera 7+ can do
that (in fact, the default value in Opera 7 was to id as IE6), Safari
can do that, Firefox can do that, lots of browser can do that. The other
way around (IE 6 disguising itself as a marginal browser is rather rare
as it is pointless).

Gérard

Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
If MS builds IE
to comply to standards I think it's because it's convenient for them to do
so. IE still supports proprietary features

Lots of browsers do support extra features, proprietary features. But
then don't do this at the expense of web standards support and
implementation like IE 4, IE 5.x, IE 6 have demonstrated.

and IMO it will continue to do so. The bottom line is that if you test with IE you will satisfy 90% of the
public at large.
Not necessarly. IE 7 will support many more CSS 2.1 properties that IE 6
does not. Same thing with IE 6 versus IE 5.x. Conformance and
correctness of implementations (HTML elements, attributes, CSS
properties, DOM attributes and methods, etc) are also involved in IE.
Therefore, it's not enough to test with IE 6 or IE 7 to automatically
assume that earlier versions of IE will do/render the same.
IE7 beta 2 already supports HTML 4.01 <abbr> element which IE6 does not.
On my own site, I reported 5 regressions in IE7 beta 2. Many others have
too.

I have no argument with those who want to test OR code for the other 10%.
IEDesigner

IEDesigner, anyone coding to strict DTD, with valid markup code, valid
CSS code and with sound design coding techniques (ie not table design)
should render without a problem in IE 6, IE 7, Opera 8.5+, Safari 2.x,
Firefox 1.x, Icab 3 and - what you call - "obscur" browsers. There is no
extra time involved.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner a écrit :

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :

[snipped]

I still
believe the stats you reference reflect the preference of visitors who are interested in browsers other than IE (and you have not show evidence to the contrary) .
IEDesigner Onestat.com is a Nederland company and its stats refer to their
customers counters' (worldwide); Websidestory is US market only; XiTi is
European market only; I believe (am not sure) Webhits is European market
only.

All of these stats refer to all browsers, not just non-IE browsers. It
wouldn't make a lot of sense to gather stats only on non-IE browsers.

Gérard

We must agree to disagree.

A wide majority of reasonable people would think that you are stubborned
here.
Still all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled.
The first judge involved in the anti-monopolist suit against Microsoft
wanted to put an end to this. That's why Win95b was created so that
people could uninstall IE from it as a followup to the judge request.
IE comes so closely bundled with the os that a break in the browser
often compromises the whole system: a pure non-sense! This is one
reason, and a big one, why using IE is riskier than another like Opera
or Seamonkey or Firefox.
This supports my contention that 90% of all people use IE.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner wrote :

"Chris Beall" <Ch*********@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:am*****************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...

IEDesigner wrote:

"Alan Silver" <al*********@nospam.thanx.invalid> wrote in message
news:9Y**************@nospamthankyou.spam...
Hello,

Just wondered what range of browsers, versions and OSs people are using
to test pages. Also, since I don't have access to a Mac, will I have
problems not being able to test on any Mac browsers, or is there some
other way of checking?
Alan Silver
<snip>

I agree with your general assessment. The numbers may not be precise,
but the vast majority use IE.
<snip>

Just because something is of concern only to
developers doesn't mean it has no value. And the world at large may
well take note if a site doesn't work at least minimally in their
browser, whatever it is.

<snip>
The world uses IE, they don't even know there are other browsers.

I think that's a bit overstated. Firefox seems to be coming up in
casual conversations more and more, even among the folks you list below.
Things change.

Speculation: What will happen when IE 7 comes out and all the users of
Windows 98 (I'm one) realize that:

<snip>

- They can't get IE 7 without upgrading the OS.

<snip>

My guess is they will ask their techno-buddies what to do and will end
up with Firefox or Opera or ????? But nobody really knows.
Chris Beall

I think Chris' guess is a good one.
IE7 is still in beta. IMO MS is not barred from offering it or an alternate
solution to earlier OS's.

[snipped]

Tecnologically speaking, MS is "barred" from offering IE 7 to Windows98,
WindowsME, Windows 2000 users. According to IE dev., improvements in IE
7 must imply under-the-hood improvements in the os.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner wrote :

"axlq" <ax**@spamcop.net> wrote in message
[snipped]
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. That's more than enough users to
support these stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
But If you get more than 300,000,000 visitors a month to your site then I'll
discard these stats and switch to yours.
IEDesigner

We've told you before and now, axlq and I are telling you again. Browser
"sniffing" based on user agent string is unreliable. The users of
"obscur" browsers (like Icab, Safari, Firefox, K-meleon, Opera 7.x,
etc..) use it to identify itself as IE6; the reverse is rarely true.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Gérard Talbot wrote:

IEDesigner wrote : [more drivel]
We've told you before and now, axlq and I are telling you again.
Browser "sniffing" based on user agent string is unreliable.

Sooner or later, you'll realise that the troll is impermeable. You may
as well put it into your killfile, as many others will - I am sure -
have already done.

[sonnystarks]

Answer to last question first. "No." I use Firefox as default but
oftentimes it is necessary to me to switch over to IE to view a page
correctly. I do not just abandon the site just because Firefox can't
render it properly (actually I am quite surprised at the number of
times I have had to do this. Firefox is not the end all to all I had
anticipated it, by all the religious fanatacism associated with it.)

And opinion matters little. What are the numbers on the sites you
manage?
The only opinions that matter are of those I expect to visit the site.
If I can only get 90% of the web community and the other 10% aren't
interested enough in my site to momentaily switch over, the question
is, do I really want to deal with them? That's like saying if Wal-Mart
won't build a store within walking distance of my house, then I won't
shop there. True, there are those without cars but do they really have
the money to make the building of the Wal-Mart profitable?
Yeah, but if the layout is broken, they won't buy anything. A
badly-rendered site erodes the online customer's frail confidence.
I have had to switch over several times to view amazon.com and Ebay. My
confidence has not been shattered in these reputable sites because
Opera or Firefox is not 100% compatible.

Build for content, not browsers...

Jim Royal wrote:

Yeah, but if the layout is broken, they won't buy anything. A
badly-rendered site erodes the online customer's frail confidence. And opinion matters little. What are the numbers on the sites you
manage?

And if your sites are not rendering properly in non-IE browsers, aren't
you DRIVING AWAY these customers, thus selecting out non-IE users from
your site stats?

--
Jim Royal
"Understanding is a three-edged sword"
http://JimRoyal.com
http://DigitalWind.com

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

Lots of browsers do support extra features, proprietary features. But
then don't do this at the expense of web standards support and
implementation like IE 4, IE 5.x, IE 6 have demonstrated.
<snip>
Not necessarly. IE 7 will support many more CSS 2.1 properties that IE 6
does not. Same thing with IE 6 versus IE 5.x. Conformance and
correctness of implementations (HTML elements, attributes, CSS
properties, DOM attributes and methods, etc) are also involved in IE.
Therefore, it's not enough to test with IE 6 or IE 7 to automatically
assume that earlier versions of IE will do/render the same.
IE7 beta 2 already supports HTML 4.01 <abbr> element which IE6 does not.
On my own site, I reported 5 regressions in IE7 beta 2. Many others have
too.
<snip>
IEDesigner, anyone coding to strict DTD, with valid markup code, valid
CSS code and with sound design coding techniques (ie not table design)
should render without a problem in IE 6, IE 7, Opera 8.5+, Safari 2.x,
Firefox 1.x, Icab 3 and - what you call - "obscur" browsers. There is no
extra time involved.

Gérard

You introduced IE7 into this discussion. Nothing wrong with tables. I answer
your post below with a recap:
IE has a 90% share:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of
those people use IE.
IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE.
If you had 300,000,000 visitors a month I would find you observation
persuasive.
Look here for 300,000,000 hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.
The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE.
What the future holds:
IE7 is still beta.
IMO MS is not barred from offering IE7 or an alternate solution to earlier
OS's.
As for what the future holds I can only say "maybe".
You have your interpretation of the future and I have mine.
Testing and coding for browsers other than IE:
If you want to test and code for other browsers I have no argument with
that.
About standards:
If MS builds IE to comply to standards I think it's because it's convenient
for them to do so.
IE still supports proprietary features and IMO it will continue too.
We likely have different ideas about what constitutes well structured or
proper markup.
If you want to make your sites future proof I suggest ascii.
I have no argument with those who want to test and code for browsers other
than IE.
About vulnerabilities in IE:
I postulate that any browser that reaches the market share that IE currently
has will likely suffer as many attacks.
Whether vulnerabilities in such a browser can be fixed in a timely manner is
a question for the future.
The bottom line:
I respect your right to voice an opinion about what you consider to be a
better browser.
The bottom line is that if you test with IE you will satisfy 90% of the
public at large.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner :

<snip>

...my contention that 90% of all people use IE.

We must agree to disagree.

A wide majority of reasonable people would think that you are stubborned
here.

Still all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled.

The first judge involved in the anti-monopolist suit against Microsoft
wanted to put an end to this. That's why Win95b was created so that
people could uninstall IE from it as a followup to the judge request.
IE comes so closely bundled with the os that a break in the browser
often compromises the whole system: a pure non-sense! This is one
reason, and a big one, why using IE is riskier than another like Opera
or Seamonkey or Firefox.

Gérard

Stubbornness is not necessarily a fault. It could be argued that tying IE to
the OS provides added usability and reduces overhead. However I do not
oppose an uninstall option for IE. See my recap below about majorities and
vulnerabilities:
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.
The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE.
About vulnerabilities in IE:
I postulate that any browser that reaches the market share that IE currently
has will likely suffer as many attacks.
Whether vulnerabilities in such a browser can be fixed in a timely manner is
a question for the future.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :

"axlq" <ax**@spamcop.net> wrote in message

[snipped]

All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. That's more than enough users to
support these stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
But If you get more than 300,000,000 visitors a month to your site then I'll discard these stats and switch to yours.
IEDesigner

We've told you before and now, axlq and I are telling you again. Browser
"sniffing" based on user agent string is unreliable. The users of
"obscur" browsers (like Icab, Safari, Firefox, K-meleon, Opera 7.x,
etc..) use it to identify itself as IE6; the reverse is rarely true.

Gérard

See my recap below about sniffing/spoofing:
IE has a 90% share:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of
those people use IE.
IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE.
If you had 300,000,000 visitors a month I would find you observation
persuasive.
Look here for 300,000,000 hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
IEDesigner

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:54:26 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is
IE.

Repeating this over and over and over again, doesn't make it right, you
know ...

--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:58:36 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

See my recap below about sniffing/spoofing:

<snip: Why don't you put this in a page and post the URL for future
reference. Safes us a lot of rereading your dogma's.>

--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |

[Ian Rastall]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2006 10:54:26 -0600, "IEDesigner"
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.

Most people I've brought up the subject with don't know what a browser
is. They know IE, because it came with the computer, and using a
different browser is too advanced for them. I do know a very smart
person who uses Firefox, because she thought IE was giving her
viruses, and she doesn't know the name of her new browser.

I think if you discuss browsers, such as if you do web design, then
it's easy to see why an alternate browser is a good idea. Of course,
valid code and good design should make a page work in most browsers
anyway, if not all of them, as someone else pointed out.

Ian
--
http://sundry.ws/

[IEDesigner]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5o0v8n6l8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:01:56 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

<snip>

IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE. If you had 300,000,000 visitors a
month I would find you observation persuasive. Look here for 300,000,000
hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/

O, that's rather smart. I don't try to click on a URI that starts with
'https', especially if all the rest is as obscure as this one is. I don't
trust what I can't see. Where would this address lead me?

All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that
90% of
those people use IE.

Well, this used to be what people took for granted. Used to be.

We likely have different ideas about what constitutes
"well structured" and "proper markup". As I said I have no argument with
those who want to spend their time testing and coding for browsers other
than IE.

And as I said: it is _not_ an extra efford to do all browsers authoring
instead.

Thank you for your concern about my success as an author, a 90%
chance is good enough for me.

90% As in 2/3? :-) And that for todays market? How about 100% of todays
and the futures markets with no extra efford, just by authoring according
to (de facto) standards? I'd put my money with the latter.
--
______PretLetters:

The link is OK. Trust it or not I don't care. What PC's sold with WIN do not
have IE preinstalled? See my recap below about testing / coding and IE's 90%
market share:
IE has a 90% share:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of
those people use IE.
IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE.
If you had 300,000,000 visitors a month I would find you observation
persuasive.
Look here for 300,000,000 hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.
The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE.
About standards:
If MS builds IE to comply to standards I think it's because it's convenient
for them to do so.
IE still supports proprietary features and IMO it will continue too.
We likely have different ideas about what constitutes well structured or
proper markup.
If you want to make your sites future proof I suggest ascii.
I have no argument with those who want to test and code for browsers other
than IE.
IEDesigner

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:12:48 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5o0v8n6l8uz2z@zoete_b...
The link is OK. Trust it or not I don't care.
And you don't care to tell what's in there either. Okay. Byebye
What PC's sold with WIN do not
have IE preinstalled? See my recap below about testing / coding and IE's
90%
market share:

You're just boring the crap out of me anyway with your trolling on about
nothing.

--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :

"Chris Beall" <Ch*********@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:am*****************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...
<snip>

I agree with your general assessment. The numbers may not be precise,
but the vast majority use IE.
<snip>
Speculation: What will happen when IE 7 comes out and all the users of
Windows 98 (I'm one) realize that:
<snip>

My guess is they will ask their techno-buddies what to do and will end
up with Firefox or Opera or ????? But nobody really knows.
Chris Beall
I think Chris' guess is a good one.

IE7 is still in beta. IMO MS is not barred from offering it or an

alternate solution to earlier OS's.

[snipped]

Tecnologically speaking, MS is "barred" from offering IE 7 to Windows98,
WindowsME, Windows 2000 users. According to IE dev., improvements in IE
7 must imply under-the-hood improvements in the os.

Gérard

My face to face research indicates that most people who can't fix their PC
do sometimes ask a friend for help. If that friend doesn't find a solution
then they will most likely buy a new PC or keep using their current PC if
possible. In either scenario they will still be using IE. If MS is barred
from offering IE7 (which you introduced into this discussion) then they are
not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier OS's. It's
software so anything is possible. See my recap below about people's
awareness of browsers other than IE:
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.
The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5quyjdgl8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:54:26 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is
IE.

Repeating this over and over and over again, doesn't make it right, you
know ...

--
______PretLetters:

It does indicate that IE is the most widely used browser.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"IEDesigner" <IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote in message
news:12*************@corp.supernews.com...

<big snip>

<obfuscation of my post by Barb snipped>

IE has a 90% share:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of those people use IE.
IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE.
If you had 300,000,000 visitors a month I would find you observation
persuasive.
Look here for 300,000,000 hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
IEDesigner

Your humor is wanting. Read the last line again or any line for that matter.
I'll bet you dislike WIN as much as you do IE.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5qu56dbl8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 17:58:36 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:
<more obfuscation by Barb snipped>
<snip: Why don't you put this in a page and post the URL for future
reference. Safes us a lot of rereading your dogma's.>
--
______PretLetters:

Your humor is not improving. I'll bet you already have a page with your
dogma's.
IEDesigner

[IEDesigner]

"Barbara de Zoete" <tr******@pretletters.net> wrote in message
news:op.s5qvs2vil8uz2z@zoete_b...

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:12:48 +0100, IEDesigner
<IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote:
<snip>
And you don't care to tell what's in there either. Okay. Byebye

What PC's sold with WIN do not
have IE preinstalled? See my recap below about testing / coding and IE's
90%
market share:

You're just boring the crap out of me anyway with your trolling on about
nothing.
--
______PretLetters:

I interests you or you wouldn't read and reply to my posts. I told you
what's in that page, here it is again:
IE has a 90% share:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled. It's no stretch to think that 90% of
those people use IE.
IMO your stats may well reflect the preference of visitors who are
interested in browsers other than IE.
If you had 300,000,000 visitors a month I would find your observation
persuasive.
Look here for 300,000,000 hits worth of stats:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
Is it a spoof that all PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled?
IEDesigner

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner wrote :

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :

"Chris Beall" <Ch*********@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:am*****************@newssvr33.news.prodigy.co m...
<snip>
I agree with your general assessment. The numbers may not be precise,
but the vast majority use IE.
<snip>
Speculation: What will happen when IE 7 comes out and all the users of
Windows 98 (I'm one) realize that:
<snip>

My guess is they will ask their techno-buddies what to do and will end
up with Firefox or Opera or ????? But nobody really knows.
Chris Beall I think Chris' guess is a good one.

IE7 is still in beta. IMO MS is not barred from offering it or an alternate solution to earlier OS's.

[snipped]

Tecnologically speaking, MS is "barred" from offering IE 7 to Windows98,
WindowsME, Windows 2000 users. According to IE dev., improvements in IE
7 must imply under-the-hood improvements in the os.

Gérard

If MS is barred
from offering IE7
It's not an hypothesis: IE 7 to run on Windows requires underlying os
improvements.

(which you introduced into this discussion)

I thought you introduced it into the discussion, just after Gus Richter
did. Anyway, IE 7 beta 2 is a reality, not a fiction.
then they are
not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier OS's. It's
software so anything is possible. See my recap below about people's
awareness of browsers other than IE:
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally
discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than
IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.
We never disagreed on this with you: yes, a wide majority of windows
users use IE 5+. But pointing up only 1 webstats for 2 months is not the
whole picture. As mentioned before, your 2 single months of stats ignore
the deep, slow but steady trend of users switching to non-IE browsers.
Every serious webstats company unanimously agree, converge on this; it's
been the case since november 2004.
Also the user agent string detection is unreliable: you never
acknowledged that.
The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE.
IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windows os.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :

<snip>

If MS is barred
from offering IE7

It's not an hypothesis: IE 7 to run on Windows requires underlying os
improvements.

(which you introduced into this discussion)

I thought you introduced it into the discussion, just after Gus Richter
did. Anyway, IE 7 beta 2 is a reality, not a fiction.

then they are
not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier OS's. It's
software so anything is possible. See my recap below about people's
awareness of browsers other than IE:
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.

We never disagreed on this with you: yes, a wide majority of windows
users use IE 5+. But pointing up only 1 webstats for 2 months is not the
whole picture. As mentioned before, your 2 single months of stats ignore
the deep, slow but steady trend of users switching to non-IE browsers.
Every serious webstats company unanimously agree, converge on this; it's
been the case since november 2004.
Also the user agent string detection is unreliable: you never
acknowledged that.

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE. IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windows os.

Gérard

IMO you are being stubborn now, but you may disagree. Gus Richter introduced
IE7 and you took up the subject by disputing what I said about it (if it
matters now). Which took the conversation away from the point I made that IE
has a 90% share today as we speak. Even if what you say about IE7 is true (I
say again) MS is not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier
OS's, it's software so anything is possible. An anti-monopolist ruling
*could* force MS to unbundle IE from the OS. I do not oppose this idea but
judging from the success the courts have had thus far I expect to see pigs
fly first.
I see six years of stats at theCounter:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
In November '04 theCounter gave IE5 and IE6 a total of 91% of the browser
market. In February '06 that number dropped to 90% total so yes, as you say,
IE has lost ground.
Ignore the stats I cite if it pleases you, assume they're spoofed if it that
pleases you too. The reality (which you ignore) today as we speak is that:
All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled (and this will likely be the case for
the foreseeable future). It's no stretch to think that 90% of the people
using those PC's use IE. My face to face research indicates that people in
the street do not normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there
are browsers other than IE. They use what came on their computer which is
IE.
Incidentally there is no "we". There are only individuals expressing their
own opinions.
IEDesigner

[Ed Mullen]

Gérard Talbot wrote:

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which
is IE.
IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windows os.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

The last PC I bought (in October) came with Firefox on it.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net

[Gérard Talbot]

IEDesigner wrote :

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :
<snip>

If MS is barred
from offering IE7

It's not an hypothesis: IE 7 to run on Windows requires underlying os
improvements.

(which you introduced into this discussion)

I thought you introduced it into the discussion, just after Gus Richter
did. Anyway, IE 7 beta 2 is a reality, not a fiction.

then they are
not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier OS's. It's
software so anything is possible. See my recap below about people's
awareness of browsers other than IE:
Are average people aware of other browsers?:
My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than IE.
The world uses IE but we must agree to disagree on this point.

We never disagreed on this with you: yes, a wide majority of windows
users use IE 5+. But pointing up only 1 webstats for 2 months is not the
whole picture. As mentioned before, your 2 single months of stats ignore
the deep, slow but steady trend of users switching to non-IE browsers.
Every serious webstats company unanimously agree, converge on this; it's
been the case since november 2004.
Also the user agent string detection is unreliable: you never
acknowledged that.

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which is IE. IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windows os.

Gérard

IMO you are being stubborn now, but you may disagree. Gus Richter introduced
IE7 and you took up the subject by disputing what I said about it (if it
matters now).

So what, for God's sake? IE7 beta 2 is a reality. The people using IE7
beta 2 are most likey included (under the IE6 stats) in the stats you
get from thecounter.com.

Which took the conversation away from the point I made that IE has a 90% share today as we speak. Even if what you say about IE7 is true (I
say again) MS is not barred from offering an alternate solution to earlier
OS's, it's software so anything is possible.
Then send your resume to Microsoft: they are hiring. If you think you
can make IE7 work on Windows98, WindowsME, Windows2000 despite what MS
engineers have been saying and are saying, then go ahead and deliver!

An anti-monopolist ruling *could* force MS to unbundle IE from the OS. I do not oppose this idea but
judging from the success the courts have had thus far I expect to see pigs
fly first.
I see six years of stats at theCounter:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
In November '04 theCounter gave IE5 and IE6 a total of 91% of the browser
market. In February '06 that number dropped to 90% total so yes, as you say,
IE has lost ground.
Ignore the stats
For the last time, you are relying on the stats at thecounter.com, not
all the stats available from serious webstats companies; these
thecounter.com stats rely on javascript support and on user agent string
detection. They do not tell everything. A wide majority of experts agree
that webstats are not precise and are not entirely reliable; what is
reliable is the trend over a long period of time (12 months or more) and
based on several webstats companies. Webstats companies do not all
disclose their methods; some do not take into consideration cached
webpages; others cover/include only specific regions (like US market)
while others only include Europe or their own clients; some consider
"hits", some only consider "visits", etc.

I cite if it pleases you, assume they're spoofed if it that pleases you too.
The spoofing may be marginal (say, 1 or 2%) but it is a phenomenon that
no one seriously dispute. The spoofing occurs more regarding marginal
browsers (e.g. Icab).

The reality (which you ignore) today as we speak is that: All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled
No one has argued that.
(and this will likely be the case for
the foreseeable future).
Oh, you're Nostradamus now? So, tell me how much will Windows Vista
cost? FYI, lots of countries are now turning to open source softwares
(like Open Office suite): China has, Brazil has and a long list of
governments have. They are sick of Windows security problems and waiting
for months to have security flaws fixed.
It's no stretch to think that 90% of the people
using those PC's use IE.
If it was so simple, then we would notice such trend everywhere, not
just at thecounter.com webstats.

In 1996-7, IE was preinstalled on Windows and Netscape 4 had huge
browser share numbers/percentage.
My face to face research indicates that people in
the street do not normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there
are browsers other than IE. They use what came on their computer which is
IE.

I installed Firefox and Thunderbird at the office where I worked. I was
even paid to do so. And, yes, the people (secretary, account people,
managers) there did not imagine/had no idea there were other web
softwares besides Internet Explorer and Outlook Express. Only my boss
knew (and knew about/heard of Firefox because it was regularly a topic
of discussion among his friend back in october 2004). The transition
efforts put on the staff was minimal. It does not take a long training
to an Outlook Express user to get his/her emails when using Thunderbird.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

[IEDesigner]

"Ed Mullen" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:wu******************************@comcast.com. ..
Gérard Talbot wrote:

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which
is IE.
IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windows os.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

The last PC I bought (in October) came with Firefox on it.

--
Ed Mullen

I imagine you could buy a PC without WIN and IE already preinstalled. But my
face to face research does not indicate that this is what 90% of the people
I talk to are buying.
IEDesigner

[Ed Mullen]

IEDesigner wrote:

"Ed Mullen" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:wu******************************@comcast.com. ..
Gérard Talbot wrote:

The man in the street is using the browser that came on his PC which
is IE.
IEDesigner

That too can change or could have been different. An anti-monopolist
ruling could force PC builders to not necessarly install IE on Windowsos.

Gérard
--
remove blah to email me

The last PC I bought (in October) came with Firefox on it.

I did not say my PC did not have IE on it.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net

[IEDesigner]

"Gérard Talbot" <ne***********@gtalbot.org> wrote in message
news:46************@uni-berlin.de...

IEDesigner wrote :
<snip>
So what, for God's sake? IE7 beta 2 is a reality. The people using IE7
beta 2 are most likey included (under the IE6 stats) in the stats you
get from thecounter.com.
<snip>
Then send your resume to Microsoft: they are hiring. If you think you
can make IE7 work on Windows98, WindowsME, Windows2000 despite what MS
engineers have been saying and are saying, then go ahead and deliver!

<snip>

I see six years of stats at theCounter:
https://dongtaiwang.com/dm/uggc/jjj....gre.pbz/fgngf/
In November '04 theCounter gave IE5 and IE6 a total of 91% of the browser market. In February '06 that number dropped to 90% total so yes, as you say, IE has lost ground.
Ignore the stats

For the last time, you are relying on the stats at thecounter.com, not
all the stats available from serious webstats companies; these
thecounter.com stats rely on javascript support and on user agent string
detection. They do not tell everything. A wide majority of experts agree
that webstats are not precise and are not entirely reliable; what is
reliable is the trend over a long period of time (12 months or more) and
based on several webstats companies. Webstats companies do not all
disclose their methods; some do not take into consideration cached
webpages; others cover/include only specific regions (like US market)
while others only include Europe or their own clients; some consider
"hits", some only consider "visits", etc.

I cite if it pleases you, assume they're spoofed if it that

pleases you too.

The spoofing may be marginal (say, 1 or 2%) but it is a phenomenon that
no one seriously dispute. The spoofing occurs more regarding marginal
browsers (e.g. Icab).

The reality (which you ignore) today as we speak is that:

All PC's with WIN have IE preinstalled

No one has argued that.

(and this will likely be the case for
the foreseeable future).

Oh, you're Nostradamus now? So, tell me how much will Windows Vista
cost? FYI, lots of countries are now turning to open source softwares
(like Open Office suite): China has, Brazil has and a long list of
governments have. They are sick of Windows security problems and waiting
for months to have security flaws fixed.

It's no stretch to think that 90% of the people
using those PC's use IE.

If it was so simple, then we would notice such trend everywhere, not
just at thecounter.com webstats.

In 1996-7, IE was preinstalled on Windows and Netscape 4 had huge
browser share numbers/percentage.

My face to face research indicates that people in
the street do not normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers other than IE. They use what came on their computer which is IE.

I installed Firefox and Thunderbird at the office where I worked. I was
even paid to do so. And, yes, the people (secretary, account people,
managers) there did not imagine/had no idea there were other web
softwares besides Internet Explorer and Outlook Express. Only my boss
knew (and knew about/heard of Firefox because it was regularly a topic
of discussion among his friend back in october 2004). The transition
efforts put on the staff was minimal. It does not take a long training
to an Outlook Express user to get his/her emails when using Thunderbird.

Gérard

Get a grip. Just because I don't roll over and buy everything you say is no
reason to lose your composure.
I modified my statement about IE7 just for you. But that is still no reason
why MS can't offer an alternate solution (workaround, update or whatever you
care to call it) to users of earlier OS's. It's software so anything is
possible but we can agree to disagree on this point if it will keep you
calm. I'm not looking to work for MS but if they came knocking I wouldn't
dismiss them either, who would?
I invited you to disregard the stats I cited. I invited you to assume they
were spoofed. What more can I do? As for what was in 1997 I remind you that
we're talking about 2006.
Price may be an issue for some who wish to upgrade but Vista and IE will be
installed on countless PC's purchased by consumers, small businesses and
corporations too. As long as this trend continues I believe IE will have no
trouble keeping it's current market share of 90%. As for vulnerabilities in
IE I repeat: I postulate that any browser that reaches the market share that
IE currently has will likely suffer as many attacks. Whether vulnerabilities
in such a browser can be fixed in a timely manner is a question for the
future. Average users out number government users by many magnitudes. What's
important is that average people choose MS and IE over any other OS or
browser by a very large margin.
Many (nearly all?) corporate environments are using IE and seem likely to do
so for the foreseeable future. Many corporate environments have a large
investment in MS software and are in no hurry to scrap it. The reality
(which you still ignore) today as we speak is that: All PC's with WIN have
IE preinstalled (and this will likely be the case for the foreseeable
future). It's no stretch to think that 90% of the people using those PC's
use IE. My face to face research indicates that people in the street do not
normally discuss browsers or even have any idea that there are browsers
other than IE. They use what came on their computer which is IE. As long as
that situation exists it effectively nails the coffin lid on every other
browser.
Considering your passion about the subject I think you should quit your job
and get involved with open source projects.
IEDesigner

[niels.froehling]

> An anti-monopolist ruling

*could* force MS to unbundle IE from the OS. I do not oppose this idea but
judging from the success the courts have had thus far I expect to see pigs
fly first.
Can you make me some photos of them?
MS is forced by European Law to unbundle IE from Windows, it became
valid for Windows XP and MS paid $700 Million because they needed to
much time ($5 million per day).
They wanted to offer the OS as Windows XP Reduced Media Edition but
got some on their noses again, now it's Windows XP L/N.

Make your home before! :-] *eg*
IEDesigner

Ciao
Niels

[IEDesigner]

<ni*************@seies.de> wrote in message
news:11**********************@i40g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...

An anti-monopolist ruling
*could* force MS to unbundle IE from the OS. I do not oppose this idea but judging from the success the courts have had thus far I expect to see pigs fly first.

Can you make me some photos of them?
MS is forced by European Law to unbundle IE from Windows, it became
valid for Windows XP and MS paid $700 Million because they needed to
much time ($5 million per day).
They wanted to offer the OS as Windows XP Reduced Media Edition but
got some on their noses again, now it's Windows XP L/N.

Make your home before! :-] *eg*

IEDesigner

Ciao
Niels

I was referring to the US market with my comment about courts. Please give a
link where PC's with IE unbundled from WIN can be purchased.
IEDesigner

[SeaPlusPlus]

"IEDesigner" <IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote in message

I was referring to the US market with my comment about courts. Please give
a
link where PC's with IE unbundled from WIN can be purchased.
IEDesigner

AAAARRRRRRGHGGHGHGHGHHHHHHHH>>>>

Somebody! ! ! ! Please! ! ! ! !

Just shoot me! ! ! ! !

Thank you...

Rich
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from http://www.SecureIX.com ***

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 10:17:17 +0100, SeaPlusPlus <Se*********@hotmail.com>
wrote:

"IEDesigner" <IE********@notevenemail.com> wrote in message
AAAARRRRRRGHGGHGHGHGHHHHHHHH>>>>

Somebody! ! ! ! Please! ! ! ! !

Just shoot me! ! ! ! !
Just kf the kid and get a grip :-)
*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***

Please use a proper signature block separator (-- \n) or don't add a
signature.
--
______PretLetters:
| weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |