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coming back to html and web authoring after 9 years

P: n/a
i hadn't designed a web page from the ground up for about 9 years, then
i was asked to do one. I'd dabbled with html and vaigly kept up with
some of the developments but other than that i've been stuck in 1996-7
thinking looking at web pages become more and more sophistocated (and
frequently slower to load!)

Back then html 3.2 was still the norm and the idea of seperating
structure and content, let alone style and structure was only just
emerging into general use. asp and server side scripting was new,
cgi and perl was the common way to get interactivity, plus java applets
and javascript. Most pages settled on being static

pages were either plain or gaudily colored, many folks had their
geocities home sites either cobbled together or simply borne of some
document resulting from 'save as html'. Netscape 2 and IE3 users were
still common.

My web sites werent very good either!

The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.

The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
examples.

After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)

seperate structure from style from content.

the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
server side includes to using a database and some server side
scripting.

Does that seem like a good approach to you? I ought to get a good
book too, any recommendations? Finally - out of interest - when did
you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?

Jan 10 '06 #1
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26 Replies


P: n/a
gs****@mailcity.com wrote:
the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
to be done with html,
Layout is presentation and is the job of style sheets. HTML should mark up
the content to describe its structure, semantics, and relationships with
other resources.
the style worked out seperately and applied with
css (css1 seems most widely compatible)
It is also rather limited. There is plenty of CSS 2 that you can use quite
happily.
and content - well content can be managed in so many ways from just
leaving it in the html, to using server side includes to using a database
and some server side scripting.


The content should be in the markup document by the time it is delivered to
the user agent. How you put it together is up to you.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
Jan 10 '06 #2

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gs****@mailcity.com writing in
news:11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.
Well, hopefully you won't use tables for structure. I think my biggest
beef with using tables instead of CSS is that if something has to be
changed site wide, with CSS it's only an external stylesheet, with tables,
it can be every single page. Additionally, hearing a page using layout
tables spoken by some screen readers is torture.
The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
examples.
You might want to check out HTML-Kit at <http://www.chami.com/html-kit/>, a
very good text editor that can integrate with TopStyle, and has hundreds of
plugins that you can use, based on your needs. You can also write your own
plugins. It also has FTP capability. TopStyle has its own HTML editor,
but I like HTML-Kit much better.

After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)

seperate structure from style from content.

the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
server side includes to using a database and some server side
scripting.

Does that seem like a good approach to you?
Use semantic markup, use elements for what they are. Use heading markup
for headings, list markup for lists including navigation lists, paragraphs
for paragraphs, tables for tabular data, etc. Try to leave all
presentation to an external stylesheet, and if you are going to be using
javascript, use an external script as well.

I ought to get a good book too, any recommendations?
I really wouldn't bother that much with a book. By the time the book is
published, everything has changed. Your best bet is the W3
recommendations. I would also suggest <http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/>
for browser issues with HTML and CSS.
Finally - out of interest - when did
you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?


I started in 1996, working with a friend of mine who wanted to do online
commodity trading recommendations. I knew nothing, and we first tried to
publish it in Word Perfect. Then I got Composer, and I started viewing
source, and then I got AceHTML version 3. I did a lot of yucky stuff in
tables and frames, and then I got smart. Now, I am a developer
(ASP/PHP/SQL/HTML Strict), and I have a handful of good clients.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 10 '06 #3

P: n/a
DC
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09


[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?

--
DC Linux RU #1000111011000111001

The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many'
and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites'.
Jan 10 '06 #4

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com> writing
in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09


[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 11 '06 #5

P: n/a
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com> writing
in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09


[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.


Pizza was pretty much the first plates. I tried making fresh bread
with a machine and it was very nice but there's so much bread
available for a few pennies these days, some of it very pleasant, it
just seems like too much effort to make my own.

BB
http://www.crystal-liaison.com/david...ges/index.html kr***@crystal-liaison.com
Gifty! Shiny!
Jan 11 '06 #6

P: n/a
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

I also make tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes...


Ooh- would you care to share? I've never been able to do that quite
right..

Jan 11 '06 #7

P: n/a
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com> writing
in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09


[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.


Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
a neighbor.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 12 '06 #8

P: n/a

David Dorward wrote:
gs****@mailcity.com wrote:
the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
to be done with html,


Layout is presentation and is the job of style sheets. HTML should mark up
the content to describe its structure, semantics, and relationships with
other resources.
the style worked out seperately and applied with
css (css1 seems most widely compatible)


It is also rather limited. There is plenty of CSS 2 that you can use quite
happily.


i've been reading that netscape 4 is just about the only browser in
[small but] regular use that doesnt know css2 at all well, and that
other browsers stumble on some parts of css2. Other than that it
sounds great, especially for layout. It explains that tidy (but
samey) look so many sites have these days.

Jan 12 '06 #9

P: n/a
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.


But you don't make your own cheese? Talk about the age of convenience! I
make tomato sause, pasta and pizza dough from scratch, but bread is left
to the fine bakers at Waitrose.

Home made pasta is so much nicer than shop-bought -- even if you buy the
fancy "fresh" pasta in the shops. Home made is more "meaty" (though of
couse, not in the sense that it contains meat).

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Jan 12 '06 #10

P: n/a

Adrienne Boswell wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gs****@mailcity.com writing in
news:11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel shaded
graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and menu
navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that appear
consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.
Well, hopefully you won't use tables for structure. I think my biggest
beef with using tables instead of CSS is that if something has to be
changed site wide, with CSS it's only an external stylesheet, with tables,
it can be every single page. Additionally, hearing a page using layout
tables spoken by some screen readers is torture.


i've been reading up a little more and indeed using CSS instead of
tables is a real release from tabling for layout like it used to be.
Looking at the css source of some sites is revealing.

The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i liked
a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look at solid
plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies were still
around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft and topstyle as
examples.


You might want to check out HTML-Kit at <http://www.chami.com/html-kit/>, a
very good text editor that can integrate with TopStyle, and has hundreds of
plugins that you can use, based on your needs. You can also write your own
plugins. It also has FTP capability. TopStyle has its own HTML editor,
but I like HTML-Kit much better.


I'll check that one too, thanks
After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now and
experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the way to
do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)

seperate structure from style from content.

the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so on
to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied with
css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well content can
be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the html, to using
server side includes to using a database and some server side
scripting.

Does that seem like a good approach to you?


Use semantic markup, use elements for what they are. Use heading markup
for headings, list markup for lists including navigation lists, paragraphs
for paragraphs, tables for tabular data, etc. Try to leave all
presentation to an external stylesheet, and if you are going to be using
javascript, use an external script as well.


When you say external for javascript do you mean an included file?
I ought to get a good
book too, any recommendations?


I really wouldn't bother that much with a book. By the time the book is
published, everything has changed. Your best bet is the W3
recommendations. I would also suggest <http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/>
for browser issues with HTML and CSS.


Thanks. Hasn't HTML4 and CSS 1&2 been around since the late 90's in a
stable form (even if browsers took a little longer to catch up). That
would appear a stable enough situation to write a good book for - or is
it the design and methods used that change all the time?

I remember way back that everything was so fast moving, browsers
included, that nothing was standards compliant.
Finally - out of interest - when did
you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?


I started in 1996, working with a friend of mine who wanted to do online
commodity trading recommendations. I knew nothing, and we first tried to
publish it in Word Perfect. Then I got Composer, and I started viewing
source, and then I got AceHTML version 3. I did a lot of yucky stuff in
tables and frames, and then I got smart. Now, I am a developer
(ASP/PHP/SQL/HTML Strict), and I have a handful of good clients.


Having that suite of skills is the way to go. Now and then i'll find
a site that hasnt been updated since the late 90's, kinda nostalgic!

The only criticism i'd have of modern sites is that, for all their
elegance, they tend to look the same, following familiar layout
schemes. It's good in the sense that sites become consistent in the
way one navigates etc (like the way Windows applications tend to follow
an informal standard layout), but perhaps a little of that pioneering
spark is gone.

Then again, back in the mid 90's it was all frames, gaudy colors and
gifs!

Jan 12 '06 #11

P: n/a
Matt Silberstein wrote:
Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
a neighbor.


They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
area...

Jan 12 '06 #12

P: n/a
On 12 Jan 2006 11:05:04 -0800, in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
, "Tony" <to****@dslextreme.com> in
<11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups .com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
a neighbor.


They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
area...


This time of year? Too much water and not enough sun.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 12 '06 #13

P: n/a
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:37:55 +0000, Toby Inkster
<us**********@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
Home made pasta is so much nicer than shop-bought -


That depends if you extrude it through a stainless steel or bronze die.

Some of us even cast our own pasta-extruding dies 8-)

Jan 13 '06 #14

P: n/a
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:28:34 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com> writing
in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09

[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.


Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes.


Care to name a brand?

BB
http://www.crystal-liaison.com/comfo...les/index.html kr***@crystal-liaison.com
Gifty! Shiny! BB!
Jan 13 '06 #15

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> writing in
news:o4********************************@4ax.com:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com>
writing in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09

[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm
one of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make
tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch,
pizza with hand made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh
organic tomatoes.


Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
a neighbor.


Actually, I live in Glendale, California which has a large Armenian
population. The small Armenian stores get their produce from farms in
Fresno. The tomato crop this summer must have been a bumper one, because I
was getting big, fat, really red, really juicy tomatoes. Those are the
ones I made sauce from. Now, they are smaller, but still very red, and
very tasty, compared to the tomatoes at my local big chain grocery which
are pale, hard, and tasteless, and quite a deal more expensive.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 13 '06 #16

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Tony" <to****@dslextreme.com>
writing in news:11*********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

I also make tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes...


Ooh- would you care to share? I've never been able to do that quite
right..


Pretty simple actually, just make sure you have really ripe, really red,
juicy tomatoes. Sometimes, my local grocer will give me the tomatoes
that haven't sold by the end of the day, and they're perfect.

First, put them in water, and let that water come to a boil, and watch
them carefully. They should start blistering in about two-three minutes.
Immediately remove them to an ice water bath to stop the cooking process.
Then remove the skins, and if you want, you can run them through a food
mill and get rid of the seeds as well (I usually don't, I like the
seeds).

Then I just chop up some garlic roughly, saute that in good EVOO, add the
tomatoes, cover for a few minutes, mash them with a potato masher, and
add herbs (usually basil) at the end. Taste for salt and pepper.

If you make a lot, you can portion it out into freezer bags. Just let
them lie flat til they are hard, then you can stack them to save room.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 13 '06 #17

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Big Bill <kr***@cityscape.co.uk>
writing in news:rm********************************@4ax.com:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com>
writing in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09

[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?


Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm
one of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make
tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch,
pizza with hand made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh
organic tomatoes.


Pizza was pretty much the first plates. I tried making fresh bread
with a machine and it was very nice but there's so much bread
available for a few pennies these days, some of it very pleasant, it
just seems like too much effort to make my own.


The problem with making bread with a bread machine is you can't get your
aggressions out on a machine, but you can knead the Hell out of bread
dough, and feel very calm and satisfied afterwards.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 13 '06 #18

P: n/a
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gs****@mailcity.com writing in
news:11*********************@g14g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:

Adrienne Boswell wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed gs****@mailcity.com writing in
news:11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
> The main difference i see in the last 5 or so years is that websites
> have a 'desktop publishing page' look, with nice curved pastel
> shaded graphics disguising what looks like a table structure and
> menu navigation offered not through frames (!) but neat buttons that
> appear consistently in each page - just about every site offered at
> http://www.oswd.org/ has this look.
Well, hopefully you won't use tables for structure. I think my
biggest beef with using tables instead of CSS is that if something has
to be changed site wide, with CSS it's only an external stylesheet,
with tables, it can be every single page. Additionally, hearing a
page using layout tables spoken by some screen readers is torture.


i've been reading up a little more and indeed using CSS instead of
tables is a real release from tabling for layout like it used to be.
Looking at the css source of some sites is revealing.
>
> The first thing i did was check out w3c to see what was happening -
> html 4.01, xhtml, css. then i checked out editors. Back then i
> liked a mix of wysiwyg and plain text, now i am more minded to look
> at solid plain text editors. Suprisingly a couple of the oldies
> were still around but i quite liked htmlbuilder, acehtml, evrsoft
> and topstyle as examples.


You might want to check out HTML-Kit at
<http://www.chami.com/html-kit/>, a very good text editor that can
integrate with TopStyle, and has hundreds of plugins that you can use,
based on your needs. You can also write your own plugins. It also
has FTP capability. TopStyle has its own HTML editor, but I like
HTML-Kit much better.


I'll check that one too, thanks
> After some rapid catching up, being pleased at what is possible now
> and experimenting i've concluded that a structural approach is the
> way to do things in 2006 (well, since the late 90's!)
>
> seperate structure from style from content.
>
> the basic structure in terms of tables and text, image layout and so
> on to be done with html, the style worked out seperately and applied
> with css (css1 seems most widely compatible) and content - well
> content can be managed in so many ways from just leaving it in the
> html, to using server side includes to using a database and some
> server side scripting.
>
> Does that seem like a good approach to you?


Use semantic markup, use elements for what they are. Use heading
markup for headings, list markup for lists including navigation lists,
paragraphs for paragraphs, tables for tabular data, etc. Try to leave
all presentation to an external stylesheet, and if you are going to be
using javascript, use an external script as well.


When you say external for javascript do you mean an included file?


No, like this:
<script type="text/javascript" src="master.js"></script>
I ought to get a good
> book too, any recommendations?
I really wouldn't bother that much with a book. By the time the book
is published, everything has changed. Your best bet is the W3
recommendations. I would also suggest
<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/> for browser issues with HTML and
CSS.


Thanks. Hasn't HTML4 and CSS 1&2 been around since the late 90's in a
stable form (even if browsers took a little longer to catch up). That
would appear a stable enough situation to write a good book for - or is
it the design and methods used that change all the time?


Its the design, methods and recommendations from authors that change. You
find HTML books that advocate tables for positioning, and do not separate
content from presentation.

I remember way back that everything was so fast moving, browsers
included, that nothing was standards compliant.
> Finally - out of interest - when did
> you start with html and authoring web pages? any fond memories!?
>


I started in 1996, working with a friend of mine who wanted to do
online commodity trading recommendations. I knew nothing, and we
first tried to publish it in Word Perfect. Then I got Composer, and I
started viewing source, and then I got AceHTML version 3. I did a lot
of yucky stuff in tables and frames, and then I got smart. Now, I am
a developer (ASP/PHP/SQL/HTML Strict), and I have a handful of good
clients.


Having that suite of skills is the way to go. Now and then i'll find
a site that hasnt been updated since the late 90's, kinda nostalgic!

The only criticism i'd have of modern sites is that, for all their
elegance, they tend to look the same, following familiar layout
schemes. It's good in the sense that sites become consistent in the
way one navigates etc (like the way Windows applications tend to follow
an informal standard layout), but perhaps a little of that pioneering
spark is gone.

Then again, back in the mid 90's it was all frames, gaudy colors and
gifs!

Just wait, everything comes back into fashion (even ugly stuff). I'm sure
that something similar will be said about the sites made now in another 10
years.
--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Jan 13 '06 #19

P: n/a
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:09:58 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Big Bill <kr***@cityscape.co.uk>
in <hb********************************@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:28:34 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com> writing
in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:

Adrienne Boswell wrote:

> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09

[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm one
of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make tomato sauce
from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch, pizza with hand
made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh organic tomatoes.


Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes.


Care to name a brand?


Not really. There are lots of decent tomatoes. Italian tend to be
good, organic do taste better. The thing is, they can them right in
the fields, so they don't need tomatoes bred for sturdiness instead of
taste.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 13 '06 #20

P: n/a
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 01:20:01 +0000, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Andy Dingley
<di*****@codesmiths.com> in
<qv********************************@4ax.com> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:37:55 +0000, Toby Inkster
<us**********@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
Home made pasta is so much nicer than shop-bought -


That depends if you extrude it through a stainless steel or bronze die.

Some of us even cast our own pasta-extruding dies 8-)


Some of us even mine our own copper and zinc. (Ok, not really some,
more like none. But I do tend to chew my own food. Usually.)

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 13 '06 #21

P: n/a
Matt Silberstein wrote:
They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
area...


This time of year? Too much water and not enough sun.


Where in California are you?

In Riverside, we have had almost no rain and plenty of sun. Temps
averaging high 70's to low 80's recently.

Not ideal tomato weather, but they do grow "reasonably well"

Jan 13 '06 #22

P: n/a
Adrienne Boswell wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Tony" <to****@dslextreme.com>
writing in news:11*********************@g43g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com:
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

I also make tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes...


Ooh- would you care to share? I've never been able to do that quite
right..


Pretty simple actually,

<recipe follows>

Thanks! I'll have to try that out

Jan 13 '06 #23

P: n/a
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:30:16 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
That depends if you extrude it through a stainless steel or bronze die.

Some of us even cast our own pasta-extruding dies 8-)


Some of us even mine our own copper and zinc.


Why would I want zinc? That would make brass, which would obviously
taste nasty. Bronze is tin and copper.

I'm also supposed to be working on writing a history of brass smelting
in the local area (it was invented on my doorstep).
Jan 13 '06 #24

P: n/a
On 13 Jan 2006 11:42:05 -0800, in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
, "Tony" <to****@dslextreme.com> in
<11**********************@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups .com> wrote:
Matt Silberstein wrote:
>They grow reasonably well in Southern California - at least in my
>area...
This time of year? Too much water and not enough sun.


Where in California are you?


Today? I am in the other-side-of-the-continent part of California.
In Riverside, we have had almost no rain and plenty of sun. Temps
averaging high 70's to low 80's recently.

Not ideal tomato weather, but they do grow "reasonably well"


If you could grow them in a day, sure.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 14 '06 #25

P: n/a
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:41:18 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> writing in
news:o4********************************@4ax.com :
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 05:32:14 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Adrienne Boswell
<ar********@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xn****************************@69.28.186.121> wrote:
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed DC <dc*****@myrealbox.com>
writing in news:sl********************@moosemeat.ca.INVALID:

Adrienne Boswell wrote:

> User-Agent: Xnews/4.11.09

[...]

Good gawd! Are you running that on Win 3.x, per chance?
Nope, Win XP Pro SP2... (whatever else). I also use Pegasus mail. I'm
one of those if it ain't broke, don't fix it people. I also make
tomato sauce from fresh tomatoes, fresh pasta and bread from scratch,
pizza with hand made dough, sauce, cheese, fresh basil and fresh
organic tomatoes.


Unless you grow your own or a neighbor does it you are better off
using high quality canned tomatoes. They have a much better taste
since they can let them actually ripen on the vine. And this time of
year, if you are right side up, you can't get good fresh tomatoes from
a neighbor.


Actually, I live in Glendale, California which has a large Armenian
population. The small Armenian stores get their produce from farms in
Fresno. The tomato crop this summer must have been a bumper one, because I
was getting big, fat, really red, really juicy tomatoes. Those are the
ones I made sauce from. Now, they are smaller, but still very red, and
very tasty, compared to the tomatoes at my local big chain grocery which
are pale, hard, and tasteless, and quite a deal more expensive.


Likely hothouse grown. It is just not tomato weather now.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 14 '06 #26

P: n/a
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:47:55 +0000, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html , Andy Dingley
<di*****@codesmiths.com> in
<rd********************************@4ax.com> wrote:
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:30:16 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<Re**************************@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
That depends if you extrude it through a stainless steel or bronze die.

Some of us even cast our own pasta-extruding dies 8-)
Some of us even mine our own copper and zinc.


Why would I want zinc?


Cause I forget and made a guess.
That would make brass, which would obviously
taste nasty. Bronze is tin and copper.

I'm also supposed to be working on writing a history of brass smelting
in the local area (it was invented on my doorstep).


Small workshop or a very large house?

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
Jan 14 '06 #27

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