Trying to position table columns

[Steven]

Hi,

I am trying to position 2 columns of links so that the first is at the
left of the page and the second is at the right. The lines in each
column should be left-justified.

I have managed to achieve this by using 'nowrap' for each links column
and adding a middle column with 'width=100%'. However, this seems a bit
fragile as it is dependent on the resolving the layout conflict. If the
percentage width attribute has a lower weight than 'nowrap' then perhaps
I am safe.

The page is at <http://phelum.com>. I really don't want to rely on CSS
as this doesn't cater for people who use Opera (user mode) as I do by
default. Is there a nice way to tell a browser to expand the middle
column so the following column is right-aligned ?

-- Steven

[kchayka]

Steven wrote:

I am trying to position 2 columns of links so that the first is at the
left of the page and the second is at the right.

The page is at <http://phelum.com>. I really don't want to rely on CSS
as this doesn't cater for people who use Opera (user mode) as I do

CSS is supposed to be optional, so you shouldn't rely on it in the first
place. As is, you are relying on legacy HTML style attributes to get a
presentational effect. That's a bad practice these days.

If you want the page to be usable in the widest array of browsing
environments, dump the layout tables, use structured, semantic markup
and style it with CSS. Note that "usable" does not mean it has to look
the same.

Also note that using Opera's user mode is *your* choice. Why do you want
to punish other people because of it? As is, I think you've made it more
difficult for users to override your style choices. Isn't that the whole
point of user mode, to override author styling?

Put the list and its heading in a div and float it (left or right,
whichever you prefer). And get rid of the nowrap, it just causes
unnecessary horizontal scrolling, a major crime in my book. Don't forget
to validate your code to eliminate syntax errors that might cause
rendering issues.

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[Steven]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:14:16 -0600, kchayka <us****@c-net.us> wrote:

CSS is supposed to be optional, so you shouldn't rely on it in the first
place. As is, you are relying on legacy HTML style attributes to get a
presentational effect. That's a bad practice these days.
Yes, I like the idea of CSS being an optional enhancement. But I had to
go from HTML strict back to transitional just to get 'align=center'. Is
this what you are referring to here ?
If you want the page to be usable in the widest array of browsing
environments, dump the layout tables, use structured, semantic markup
and style it with CSS. Note that "usable" does not mean it has to look
the same.
I'm not trying to be too clever or flexible here but I am trying to
cater for a range of window widths (say 600 to 1024). Is this mediocre
flexibility a bad idea ? Perhaps I am gaining nothing and losing the
advantages of a fixed layout.
Also note that using Opera's user mode is *your* choice. Why do you want
to punish other people because of it?
I didn't think I was punishing normal users in any way. I am just
catering for people who have images and styling disabled. Is it wrong
to suggest something like a two column layout to the browser ?
Put the list and its heading in a div and float it (left or right,
whichever you prefer). And get rid of the nowrap, it just causes
unnecessary horizontal scrolling, a major crime in my book. Don't forget
to validate your code to eliminate syntax errors that might cause
rendering issues.

I will experiment with alternative ideas. Is the idea of two columns of
links basically flawed ?

Thanks for your input.

-- Steven

[David Dorward]

Steven wrote:

Also note that using Opera's user mode is *your* choice. Why do you want
to punish other people because of it?

I didn't think I was punishing normal users in any way. I am just
catering for people who have images and styling disabled. Is it wrong
to suggest something like a two column layout to the browser ?

Suggest? No. That's what CSS is for.

User mode is there so the user can tell their browser to ignore your
suggestions!

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

[Steven]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:35:26 +0000, David Dorward <do*****@yahoo.com>
wrote:

I didn't think I was punishing normal users in any way. I am just
catering for people who have images and styling disabled. Is it wrong
to suggest something like a two column layout to the browser ?
Suggest? No. That's what CSS is for.

Does this mean I could have a list of links in a div and use CSS to
format this into multiple columns ?
User mode is there so the user can tell their browser to ignore your
suggestions!

I use user mode so I get my fonts and colours but it does disable author
styling. This doesn't affect the layout of most pages significantly.
Isn't this a sensible balance ?

Thanks,
Steven

[David Dorward]

Steven wrote:

Suggest? No. That's what CSS is for.

Does this mean I could have a list of links in a div and use CSS to
format this into multiple columns ?
Not easily with CSS 2 (well, unless you represent your list as two lists in
the markup, or have items listed:

1 2
3 4
5 6)

CSS 3 will have a column layout feature.

Personally I prefer to avoid columns unless each is a distinct type of
content. Scrolling down, then back up, and then back down again isn't very
fun - and its not like you have finite vertical browser canvas to play
with!
User mode is there so the user can tell their browser to ignore your
suggestions!

I use user mode so I get my fonts and colours but it does disable author
styling. This doesn't affect the layout of most pages significantly.
Isn't this a sensible balance ?

It might be more sensible to just write a user style sheet and apply that if
you aren't interested in stripping all the styling off.

* {
color: black;
background-color: white;
font-family: monospace;
}

a:link {
color: blue;
background-color: blue;
}

a:visited {
color: #909;
background-color: white;
}

pre, textarea {
font-family: monospace;
}

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

[Steven]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 10:56:45 +0000, David Dorward <do*****@yahoo.com>
wrote:

[snip]

Thanks for your input David. I have just started reading your website
and will try to learn some of the concepts before I ask any more
questions. This is a good time for me to learn because I'm not too
fixed by habits yet.

I also hate columns generally but in my case it is just more efficient
use of the screen space and avoids scrolling. Yes, PDFs with multiple
columns are a pain.

I will experiment with a stylesheet to specify fonts and link
decoration.

Thanks again,

Steven