nested frames

[bird]

I want to write a multi-frame web page. At level one, it has
two frames, saying LEFT and RIGHT. At level two, I split the RIGHT frame
into two again, saying UPPER_RIGHT and LOWER_RIGHT.
The LEFT frame contains a menu. The reason I need two levels
is because each menu item needs different UPPER_RIGHT and
LOWER_RIGHT frames. I just found that I could not nest frames.
Can someone please tell how to write such a web page?

thank you

[Mark Parnell]

In our last episode, bird <bi**@village.org> pronounced to
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

I want to write a multi-frame web page.
Why?

Problems with frames:
http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/frames/whatswrong.html
http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/

Search Engines and Frames:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html (see under "Your pages use
frames")
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmast...le.php/2167901

Using Frames Properly:
http://www.markparnell.com.au/articles/frames.php
I just found that I could not nest frames.
You can, but it's only going to compound the problems.
Can someone please tell how to write such a web page?

We could, but then we'd have to kill you.

--
Mark Parnell
http://clarkecomputers.com.au

[Rob_W]

bird wrote:

I want to write a multi-frame web page. At level one, it has
two frames, saying LEFT and RIGHT. At level two, I split the RIGHT frame
into two again, saying UPPER_RIGHT and LOWER_RIGHT.
The LEFT frame contains a menu. The reason I need two levels
is because each menu item needs different UPPER_RIGHT and
LOWER_RIGHT frames. I just found that I could not nest frames.
Can someone please tell how to write such a web page?

thank you

You have two problems:

1. Frames are out
You have just started a threat in wich a lot of people will be arguing
the pros and cons of using frames.
This will develop into a kind of global frames-war.

2. The problem in itself is so minor, that by posting this question you
will invite a lot of answers like:
"Google is your friend"
"Have you searched the web?"
"Find an existing website that looks the same and study the code"
Actually, if I hadn't been in a writing mood, I would probably have
given one of these answers.

Good luck.

RW

[Philip Ronan]

"bird" wrote:

I want to write a multi-frame web page.

Stop wanting that.

Try doing things properly instead. Here's a good place to start:
<http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another>

--
phil [dot] ronan @ virgin [dot] net
http://vzone.virgin.net/phil.ronan/

[Jake]

In message <di**********@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>, bird
<bi**@village.org> writes

I want to write a multi-frame web page. At level one, it has
two frames, saying LEFT and RIGHT. At level two, I split the RIGHT frame
into two again, saying UPPER_RIGHT and LOWER_RIGHT.
The LEFT frame contains a menu. The reason I need two levels
is because each menu item needs different UPPER_RIGHT and
LOWER_RIGHT frames. I just found that I could not nest frames.
Can someone please tell how to write such a web page?

thank you


Sure.

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the frame-o-phobes,
who will then explain to you why the use of frames will bring about the
end of civilization as we know it ;-)

Anyway, here's a good example (and you may want to read the rest of the
section):

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html

In the example, the page will look like a mirror-image of your
requirements-- but should give you an idea of how to write the HTML.

In your case, you'll need (in basic terms) something like:

<frameset cols="30%, 70%">
<frame src="left_frame.htm" name="Menu">
<frameset rows="100, 200">
<frame src="upper_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
<frame src="lower_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
</frameset>
etc.

The w3c reference will show you how to set the various proportions of
the frames on the screen.

Post back if you've still got problems.

regards

PS. Do understand that you will not be able to fill both frames
simultaneously with content from a single 'click' on the menu. For that
you are probably going to need javascript -- so if that's what your
thinking of doing, you should visit one of the javascript NGs.

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the
frame-o-phobes, who will then explain to you why the use of frames
will bring about the end of civilization as we know it ;-)
You've got the wrong end of the stick here. You're talking to web
page authors - but the more experienced authors here know that it's
discerning *readers* who hate frames.

Authoring good web pages isn't just about what appeals to authors, but
about producing a product that will be useful to one's readers. If
you want to convince *readers* that frames are so wonderful, this
might not be the right place to do it.
Anyway, here's a good example (and you may want to read the rest of the
section):

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html ^^^^^^^

There's a clue in there. "Present"ation nowadays[1] belongs in the
stylesheet, not in the HTML.
<frameset cols="30%, 70%">
<frame src="left_frame.htm" name="Menu">
<frameset rows="100, 200">
<frame src="upper_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this frame.">
<frame src="lower_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this frame.">
</frameset>
etc.
One of the most important parts of a frames design is completely
missing from your example!
Post back if you've still got problems.

More to the point, your *readers* will get problems (but will they
bother to tell you about them - or just quietly leave?). Posting here
might go some way to helping an author to alleviate those problems
(for example, creating a different URL for every frameset
configuration so that bookmarking isn't sabotaged), but some of them
are so fundamental that it might be better to completely reconsider
the problem.

best
[1] this *had* always been the underlying plan, although the vendors
(starting with the "Mosaic Communications Corporation" managed to
obfuscate it with presentational quasi-HTML for far too long.

[Andreas Prilop]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:

In your case, you'll need (in basic terms) something like:

<frameset cols="30%, 70%">
<frame src="left_frame.htm" name="Menu">
<frameset rows="100, 200">
<frame src="upper_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
<frame src="lower_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
</frameset>
etc.

Don't forget

<noframes>
<img alt="Valid HTML 4.01 Frameset" src=...>
</noframes>

as suggested by validator.w3.org.

--
One of the most common operations performed in a Web page
is to detect the browser type and version.
Found on http://msdn.microsoft.com

[Shawn K. Quinn]

begin quotation
from bird <bi**@village.org>
in message <di**********@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>
posted at 2005-10-14T04:21

I want to write a multi-frame web page.

If frames were so great, Netscape Corporation (since bought by AOL)
would still be using them today. As it stands, Netscape Corporation
dumped their frames site within a matter of months.

Frames are obsolete. Any other method of trying to solve the same
problems is a step up.

--
___ _ _____ |*|
/ __| |/ / _ \ |*| Shawn K. Quinn
\__ \ ' < (_) | |*| sk*****@speakeasy.net
|___/_|\_\__\_\ |*| Houston, TX, USA

[Darin McGrew]

Jake <ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

PS. Do understand that you will not be able to fill both frames
simultaneously with content from a single 'click' on the menu. For that
you are probably going to need javascript -- so if that's what your
thinking of doing, you should visit one of the javascript NGs.

The answer to the FAQ "How do I update two frames at once?"
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/frames.html#frame-update2> includes a
non-JavaScript solution that works more reliably than the JavaScript
solutions.

But see also: http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/fra...frame-problems
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"What is the use of running when you are not on the right road?"

[Stephen Poley]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:13:22 +0100, Jake <ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the frame-o-phobes,
who will then explain to you why the use of frames will bring about the
end of civilization as we know it ;-)

Whereas much of what has been espoused in c.i.w.a.* for the last five
years or so is still being widely ignored, the market actually does seem
to have caught on to the need to ditch frames.

When I had a discussion on this with a site owner a few months ago, I
took the trouble of checking some 15 or 16 sites belonging to his
customers and competitors.

Just one used frames.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

[Stan Brown]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:21:38 -0600 in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, (bird) bi**@village.org favored
us with...

I want to write a multi-frame web page.

No, you don't. Trust me on this.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

[Stan Brown]

Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html on Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:51:49 +
0100:

Authoring good web pages isn't just about what appeals to authors, but
about producing a product that will be useful to one's readers.

That should be embroidered on a sampler, and tattooed on the forehead
of every Web designer.

Maybe that's too harsh -- it should be tattooed on the forehead of
every Web designer who has used frames more than six months after
his/her first Web page.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

[bird]

"Jake" <ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Sure.

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the frame-o-phobes,
who will then explain to you why the use of frames will bring about the
end of civilization as we know it ;-)

Anyway, here's a good example (and you may want to read the rest of the
section):

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/present/frames.html

In the example, the page will look like a mirror-image of your
requirements-- but should give you an idea of how to write the HTML.

In your case, you'll need (in basic terms) something like:

<frameset cols="30%, 70%">
<frame src="left_frame.htm" name="Menu">
<frameset rows="100, 200">
<frame src="upper_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
<frame src="lower_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this
frame.">
</frameset>
etc.

The w3c reference will show you how to set the various proportions of
the frames on the screen.

Post back if you've still got problems.

regards

PS. Do understand that you will not be able to fill both frames
simultaneously with content from a single 'click' on the menu. For that
you are probably going to need javascript -- so if that's what your
thinking of doing, you should visit one of the javascript NGs.

Thank you and others. By looking through all the replies and pointers,
I know how to write the page now.

I agree now that using frames is not a good idea. I did not notice it
before. I do not write web pages often, but want to finish a task as
soon as possible. I believe I will not use frames any more.

Thank you all again.

Kevin

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Jake]

In message <di**********@blue.rahul.net>, Darin McGrew
<mc****@stanfordalumni.org> writes

Jake <ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

PS. Do understand that you will not be able to fill both frames
simultaneously with content from a single 'click' on the menu. For that
you are probably going to need javascript -- so if that's what your
thinking of doing, you should visit one of the javascript NGs.
The answer to the FAQ "How do I update two frames at once?"
<http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/frames.html#frame-update2> includes a
non-JavaScript solution that works more reliably than the JavaScript
solutions.

But see also: http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/fra...frame-problems

Well, it's not actually updating two frames ... just replacing one of
the existing frames with a new frameset on an 'all-or-nothing' basis.

Regards.

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Jake]

In message <sl********************@xevious.platypuslabs.org >, Shawn K.
Quinn <sk*****@speakeasy.net> writes

begin quotation
from bird <bi**@village.org>
in message <di**********@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>
posted at 2005-10-14T04:21

I want to write a multi-frame web page.

If frames were so great, Netscape Corporation (since bought by AOL)
would still be using them today. As it stands, Netscape Corporation
dumped their frames site within a matter of months.

Frames are obsolete. Any other method of trying to solve the same
problems is a step up.

Ah yes: http://www.netscape.com/

Excellent site design .... fixed-width, nested-table layout ... thanks
for the reference.

Regards.

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Jake]

In message <a8********************************@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
<sb******************@xs4all.nl> writes

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:13:22 +0100, Jake <ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the frame-o-phobes,
who will then explain to you why the use of frames will bring about the
end of civilization as we know it ;-)

Whereas much of what has been espoused in c.i.w.a.* for the last five
years or so is still being widely ignored, the market actually does seem
to have caught on to the need to ditch frames.

When I had a discussion on this with a site owner a few months ago, I
took the trouble of checking some 15 or 16 sites belonging to his
customers and competitors.

Just one used frames.

Does that make him a bad person ..... ;-)

regards.

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Jake]

In message <Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.a c.uk>, Alan
J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> writes

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:
[Snip]

<frameset cols="30%, 70%">
<frame src="left_frame.htm" name="Menu">
<frameset rows="100, 200">
<frame src="upper_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this frame.">
<frame src="lower_right.htm" name="descriptive name of this frame.">
</frameset>
etc.
One of the most important parts of a frames design is completely
missing from your example!

And I feel sure you're going to put me right by telling me where ......
please.

[Snip]
--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[Alan J. Flavell]

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:

One of the most important parts of a frames design is completely
missing from your example!

And I feel sure you're going to put me right by telling me where ......
please.

A user-friendly noframes part, forsooth ;-)

(And I don't mean one that says your browser isn't frames-capable so
go away. But you knew that.)

[Dr John Stockton]

JRS: In article <Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.a c.uk>
, dated Fri, 14 Oct 2005 11:51:49, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.aut
horing.html, Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> posted :

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:

You realise, of course, that your post will wake up the
frame-o-phobes, who will then explain to you why the use of frames
will bring about the end of civilization as we know it ;-)

You've got the wrong end of the stick here. You're talking to web
page authors - but the more experienced authors here know that it's
discerning *readers* who hate frames.

My pages are written using a 640 px window, with a font size that suits,
etc. (though nothing in the pages enforces those), without frames. They
have a "Frame This" link at the top, which adds a left indexing column
about 150 px wide, usable but not required for site navigation. If, in
that state, the window is made 800 px wide, the main frame is
substantially the same width as before. There is a link for de-framing.

Assuming that the user is either uninterested in or aware of the book-
marking situation, why need he go so far as to *hate* the frames?
Actually, there has been a deficiency in my usage; No-Frame went to #
rather than to page.htm, so that the address bar showed just # (it shows
page.htm after clicking the dot in the H1, but readers are not expected
to know that); I'll change it so that it goes explicitly to page.htm.
Thank you for making me think of it.

The change is easy, with DOS for and MiniTrue, but every page needs to
be uploaded; so when this article appears maybe only estrdate.htm and a
few others will have been uploaded.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
I find MiniTrue useful for viewing/searching/altering files, at a DOS prompt;
free, DOS/Win/UNIX, <URL:http://www.idiotsdelight.net/minitrue/>

[Norman L. DeForest]

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005, Mark Parnell wrote:

In our last episode, bird <bi**@village.org> pronounced to
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

I want to write a multi-frame web page.

Why?

Problems with frames:
http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/frames/whatswrong.html
http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/

Search Engines and Frames:
http://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html (see under "Your pages use
frames")
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmast...le.php/2167901

Using Frames Properly:
http://www.markparnell.com.au/articles/frames.php

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/protest2.html :)

--
``Why don't you find a more appropiate newsgroup to post this tripe into?
This is a meeting place for a totally differnt kind of "vision impairment".
Catch my drift?'' -- "jim" in alt.disability.blind.social regarding an
off-topic religious/political post, March 28, 2005

[Jake]

In message <Pi******************************@ppepc56.ph.gla.a c.uk>, Alan
J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> writes

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005, Jake wrote:

> One of the most important parts of a frames design is completely
> missing from your example!
And I feel sure you're going to put me right by telling me where ......
please.

A user-friendly noframes part, forsooth ;-)

Oh dear. Always a problem when you don't read the post in context.

Hint:
(a) You read the reference
(b) You then match up the example in the reference with the comment in
the post that follows
(c) Without thinking too deeply, you figure out what "etc." means

But you know that, I'm sure ;-)

(And I don't mean one that says your browser isn't frames-capable so
go away. But you knew that.)

--
Jake (ja**@gododdin.demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

[kchayka]

Jake wrote:

(c) Without thinking too deeply, you figure out what "etc." means

But you know that, I'm sure ;-)

The trouble comes from posting responses like that to the OP's query.

If he already knew what "etc." refers to, it's not likely he would have
posted the query in the first place.

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.