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some problems with the euro symbol

P: n/a
greetings,

I am currently working on a website where I need to print the Euro
symbol and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".

If I choose this :

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" >
<html
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en"
lang="en">
<head>
<title></title>
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Quanta Plus" />
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml;
charset=iso-8859-15" />
then I get Euros but not the "oe"

If I use iso8859-1 then it is the other way round :(

help !!

many thx !
Oct 4 '05 #1
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18 Replies


P: n/a
"gabriel" wrote:
I need to print the Euro symbol and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".

If I choose this :

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml;
charset=iso-8859-15" />

then I get Euros but not the "oe"

If I use iso8859-1 then it is the other way round :(


Are you sure? ISO 8859-1 doesn't contain the Euro symbol or OE ligatures.
Maybe you're just using the wrong character codes?

You can check here: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8859-15>. But wouldn't
it be easier just to use HTML entities &euro;, &OElig; and &oelig;?

--
phil [dot] ronan @ virgin [dot] net
http://vzone.virgin.net/phil.ronan/
Oct 4 '05 #2

P: n/a
gabriel wrote:
I am currently working on a website where I need to print the Euro
symbol
Are you sure? By the way, the name is "euro", unless you are writing
German or at the start of a sentence. In normal text, the word "euro",
in suitable form by language, case, and number, is superior to the euro
sign. (Ask any typographer.) In a price list, you could use &euro;. See
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/euro.html
and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".
Well, maybe. Most French writers seem to use just "oe", not the letter
oe (officially called "ligature oe"). But you could use &oelig; if you
care enough and are willing to take a small risk. (I'm not sure how
widely search engines recognize the letter oe as equivalent to the
letter pair oe.)
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" >
Use of XHTML on the web means unnecessary risks. You can make the risks
rather small if you are careful, but what do you expect to _win_?

By the way, posting a URL is immensely more useful that posting a
pseudorandom snippet of markup. For one thing, it lets us check the
character encoding as specified at the HTTP level; it may well override
any meta hacks you might have.
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml;
charset=iso-8859-15" />
Don't use iso-8859-15 on the web. There's nothing to be won, and quite a
few things to be lost.
then I get Euros but not the "oe"


So what did you actually do? Did I mention that the URL is needed?
Oct 4 '05 #3

P: n/a
gabriel wrote:

greetings,

I am currently working on a website where I need to print the Euro
symbol and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".

If I choose this :

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd" >
<html
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
xml:lang="en"
lang="en">
<head>
<title></title>
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Quanta Plus" />
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml;
charset=iso-8859-15" />

then I get Euros but not the "oe"

If I use iso8859-1 then it is the other way round :(

help !!

many thx !


As others have noted, you should be using ISO-8859-1 (not
iso8859-1). Also, you should be using the entity references
&euro;, &OElig;, and &oelig;.

However, none of this works if the font on the computer used by the
person viewing the page does not support those symbols. Using
style-sheets (or the deprecated <font> tag) to force the use of a
font won't necessarily help since old versions of fonts still won't
support the euro symbol, even if your version of the same font does
support it. Font sets created before 1999 (and some created in
that year or later) do not support the euro. Script and other
fanciful fonts often fail to support the euro and other symbols.
Furthermore, some fonts support the symbols for display but not for
printing; that can be a function of the printer.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
Oct 4 '05 #4

P: n/a
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".


Well, maybe. Most French writers seem to use just "oe", not the letter
oe (officially called "ligature oe")


Yes, that's right. Actually the french keyboard layout doesn't gives the
ability to type the ½ character... For Windows there is still the
possibility to use a custom layout like the Denis Liegeois' one [1] or
to create your own one [2]

[1] "Pilote de clavier français enrichi pour Microsoft Windows"
http://home-14.tiscali-business.nl/~...35/kbdfrac.htm

[2] Microsoft Layout Keyboard Creator
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
Oct 5 '05 #5

P: n/a
gabriel wrote:
I am currently working on a website where I need to print the Euro
symbol and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".

If I choose this : (...) <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml;
charset=iso-8859-15" />

then I get Euros but not the "oe"

If I use iso8859-1 then it is the other way round :(


You already have answers about using iso-8859-1 instead of iso8859-1
But I'd like to ask you if you did set the http headers correctly ? The
charset information sent in the http headers has indeed a greater
priority than the meta information.

You're posting with a .fr email, so maybe you could be interested in
reading a few things I wrote down about this in french :
http://pgoiffon.free.fr/info/i18n/web_charset.php
(there's also a litle article on why it is complicated to use XHTML
nowdays : http://pgoiffon.free.fr/info/inet/html_ou_xhtml.php)
In english, you'll find lots of things on the Jukka Koperla website :
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/
Oct 5 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, David Ross wrote:
As others have noted, you should be using ISO-8859-1 (not
iso8859-1).
Or Windows-1252, which is widely supported - even by Netscape 3.0.
Also, you should be using the entity references
&euro;, &OElig;, and &oelig;.
Actually, œ is recognized by Netscape 4.0 but &oelig; is not.
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...cklist.html#s6
However, none of this works if the font on the computer used by the
person viewing the page does not support those symbols.


This is wrong! Even Netscape 4.0 displays &euro; as "EUR"
when the euro symbol is not available. Mozilla displays &oelig;
as two characters "oe" when the ligature is not available.

Oct 5 '05 #7

P: n/a
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, gabriel wrote:
I am currently working on a website where I need to print the Euro
symbol and some "oe" like in "oeuvre".
The easiest way is to use "charset=windows-1252", which is
certainly a legal charset value.
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/xhtml; ^^^^^^^^^^ charset=iso-8859-15" />


Specify the encoding in the HTTP header and delete this META
thingy.
http://www.w3.org/International/O-HTTP-charset.html
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...t/ns-burp.html

"text/xhtml" is nonsense, anyway. I suggest you stick with HTML 4.

Oct 5 '05 #8

P: n/a
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
(I'm not sure how
widely search engines recognize the letter oe as equivalent to the
letter pair oe.)


http://www.google.sh/search?q=oeuvre
http://www.google.sh/search?q=%BDuvre&ie=ISO-8859-15

The _order_ of the results is a bit different; but otherwise
I think the two letters "oe" and the oe ligature are
equivalent in Google.

Oct 5 '05 #9

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop wrote [in part]:

I previously wrote [also in part]:
However, none of this works if the font on the computer used by the
person viewing the page does not support those symbols.


This is wrong! Even Netscape 4.0 displays &euro; as "EUR"
when the euro symbol is not available. Mozilla displays &oelig;
as two characters "oe" when the ligature is not available.


I tested this, forcing the use of a font that does not support the
euro. Mozilla used a different font just for the symbol,
apparently Georgia (my default serif font). When I changed by
default serif font to Bookman Old Style (which does not support the
euro), Mozilla used another font (possibly Palatino).

I have 72 fonts installed, many of which support the euro. I'm not
about to recheck in order to uninstall those that do support that
symbol to do a test (at least not today).

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
Oct 5 '05 #10

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop wrote:
As others have noted, you should be using ISO-8859-1 (not
iso8859-1).


Or Windows-1252, which is widely supported - even by Netscape 3.0.


Witch version of windows-1252 ? I've been told the euro symbol wasn't
present in the very first version of this charset.
By the way, I think using windows-1252 could cause problems for non
Windows platforms, does it ?
Oct 6 '05 #11

P: n/a
On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Pierre Goiffon wrote:
Witch version of windows-1252 ?
The latest of course ;-)
I've been told the euro symbol wasn't
present in the very first version of this charset.
It was included in cp1252 (along with Zcaron) when Windows 98
came out. That's old enough.
By the way, I think using windows-1252 could cause problems for non
Windows platforms, does it ?


What exactly means "cause problems"?

Oct 6 '05 #12

P: n/a
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005, David Ross wrote:
This is wrong! Even Netscape 4.0 displays &euro; as "EUR"
when the euro symbol is not available. Mozilla displays &oelig;
as two characters "oe" when the ligature is not available.


I tested this, forcing the use of a font that does not support the
euro. Mozilla used a different font just for the symbol,
apparently Georgia (my default serif font).


Please re-read my posting carefully. I wrote:

- about "euro" in Netscape 4.0 [ meaning 4.08 to be exact ],

- about "oe" in Mozilla.

I did not write about "euro" in Mozilla.

Oct 6 '05 #13

P: n/a
On Thu, 6 Oct 2005, Pierre Goiffon wrote:
Andreas Prilop wrote:

Or Windows-1252, which is widely supported - even by Netscape 3.0.
Witch


"Burn the witch!" SCNR...
version of windows-1252 ? I've been told the euro symbol
wasn't present in the very first version of this charset.
True, but that doesn't prevent browsers that are even halfways recent
from displaying a euro character.

Windows-1252 is of course a proprietary encoding, and some rate it
rude to use it on the WWW for that reason alone; but at least it is
registered in the IANA list of registered "charsets" (which means
"character encodings" in modern terminology) and so it's at least
technically legal for use on the Internet.
By the way, I think using windows-1252 could cause problems for non
Windows platforms, does it ?


Do you think so? I don't think you'd find it causes more problems
for web browsers than, say, cp850, koi8-r, iso-8859-15, all of which
are registered "charset" values. My own advice on the situation
is set our in http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist
particularly http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...t/checklist#s3
and #s3a and the associated footnotes.

In short: if you want better compatibility with old 8-bit-character
architecture systems then you could well use windows-1252, despite the
rudeness of a proprietary encoding: if you want to do a proper job
according to current specifications, then use utf-8, which is also
compatible with the old Netscape 4.* browsers. In either case you
won't get perfect coverage of all possible browsers, but if you want
more than iso-8859-1 you need to make some kind of choice anyway.

ttfn
Oct 6 '05 #14

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Witch
"Burn the witch!" SCNR...


Oh, I'll turn myself into a nute (...)
I'm use this word very often, and I was always mistaking the spelling -
I've just take a look at the french/english dictionnary, "which" is the
correct one. Thanks for correction, that's how I can improve (and for
lots of things I _need_ to improve a lot, I mean) my english level
Windows-1252 is of course a proprietary encoding, and some rate it
rude to use it on the WWW for that reason alone; but at least it is
registered in the IANA list of registered "charsets" (which means
"character encodings" in modern terminology) and so it's at least
technically legal for use on the Internet. (...) I don't think you'd find it causes more problems
for web browsers than, say, cp850, koi8-r, iso-8859-15, all of which
are registered "charset" values. (...) My own advice on the situation
is set our in http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist


Err, OK, but what means "widely supported" ?
I'm just wondering if any non Windows system browser can handle content
encoded in windows-1252. As I don't have any Macintosh or *Nix system
where I could test by my own, I've looked in lots of webpages and never
found any precise information telling for example windows-1252 could be
sent and normally rendered on a Macintosh browser. All I can find is
things like "good support", but without precision if this is a good
support for Windows systems only.

(I did my best to be clear enough, but if this is totally inintelligible
for english speaking people, I'll try to rewrite it O:) )
Oct 7 '05 #15

P: n/a
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Pierre Goiffon wrote:
My own advice on the situation is set our in
http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist
Err, OK, but what means "widely supported" ?


It means that due to the powerful influence of this quasi-monopoly
vendor, many documents get sent out with Windows encoding advertised,
with the result that many browser implementers on other platforms
could see no alternative than to recognise it themselves.
I'm just wondering if any non Windows system browser can handle
content encoded in windows-1252.


Lots of them, by now, though probably not all. That's why I said I
don't recommend what I call "scenario 3", where the content is put at
risk merely for the purpose of getting typographic niceties.
However, if the other characters of the Windows-1252 repertoire are
also required, then there are various compromises available for
optimising browser compatibility, and the use of windows-1252 encoding
is one of them. The fact that I call them "compromises" means that no
single option will guarantee compatibility with every browser and OS,
so you have to either pick one and take the consequences, or offer the
content in several different variants, as I discuss there.

hope that helps
Oct 7 '05 #16

P: n/a
On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Pierre Goiffon wrote:
I'm just wondering if any non Windows system browser can handle content
encoded in windows-1252.
The problem is *not* "charset=windows-1252" - at least not since
Netscape 3 for Macintosh. Netscape 2 for Macintosh could not
display special characters correctly with "charset=windows-1252".

The problem is whether certain characters are actually available
on a non-MS-Windows system. As an example, take the "typographic
quotation marks". It doesn't matter whether you use "charset=
windows-1252" or &#number; or pure UTF-8. The browser's behaviour
is usually (always?) the same: either it displays them as ASCII
quotation marks (") or it fails and displays questions marks (?)
or boxes.
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/windows-chars.html
I've looked in lots of webpages and never
found any precise information telling for example windows-1252 could be
sent and normally rendered on a Macintosh browser.


http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/...o8859-mac.html
This applies to Windows-1252 as well. Again, the problems are
*not* in the given "charset" parameter but in the characters used.
Older browsers such as Netscape 4.x could not display ¼ ½ ¾ ¹ ² ³
and so on. But this is *the same* with ISO-8859-1.

Oct 7 '05 #17

P: n/a
Andreas, Alan, thanks very mutch for your very complete answers
Oct 7 '05 #18

P: n/a
Dan
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
It means that due to the powerful influence of this quasi-monopoly
vendor, many documents get sent out with Windows encoding advertised,
with the result that many browser implementers on other platforms
could see no alternative than to recognise it themselves.


Better that they *advertise* this encoding than simply throwing in
characters from it while advertising a different encoding in which
those characters don't actually exist, as is unfortunately so often
seen both on the Web and in e-mail and newsgroup postings. When this
happens, it can be a fruitless battle to try to get the senders to
conform to the standards, as seen for instance in this forum thread
where I attempted such a thing recently:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/default.aspx?...66&postid=2698

--
Dan

Oct 7 '05 #19

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