Fixed length page / scrolling div

[al jones]

I guess one question at a time will work better.

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window if I can.
Meaning that I'd like the entire page to be visible on the current users
screen.

That means that I'd like one or both of the divs to scroll. I've found how
to do that, I think, but can't seem to 'size' the page so it fits on
different viewports.

Any direction, please //al

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

al jones wrote:

I guess one question at a time will work better.

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window if I
can. Meaning that I'd like the entire page to be visible on the
current users screen.
That would only work if I had a high-res monitor and a maximized browser.
That means that I'd like one or both of the divs to scroll. I've
found how to do that, I think, but can't seem to 'size' the page so
it fits on different viewports.
If you change the div to scroll, my mouse wheel won't work, as it does
now on the whole page. I would have to move the pointer to the div's
scrollbar and drag it, quite inconvenient.
Any direction, please //al

Stop wanting that. <g>

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[al jones]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 01:33:17 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

al jones wrote:

I guess one question at a time will work better.

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window if I
can. Meaning that I'd like the entire page to be visible on the
current users screen.
That would only work if I had a high-res monitor and a maximized browser.

Not sure I understand what you mean there. What I'd see at 800x600 is
obviously going to be less than what I'd see at 1152x864 and still less
than what I'd see at (my normal) 1600x1200. What I'd like to present is as
much of the current page as the user can actually see in their 'window'.
I'm probably missing the obvious - would you mind explaining?

That means that I'd like one or both of the divs to scroll. I've
found how to do that, I think, but can't seem to 'size' the page so
it fits on different viewports.

If you change the div to scroll, my mouse wheel won't work, as it does
now on the whole page. I would have to move the pointer to the div's
scrollbar and drag it, quite inconvenient.

Since we're picking on each other here - I think - I'm sorry your mouse's
scroll wheel won't work, mine does - even scrolling in divs. If I put the
cursor in the div (not mine, damnit, but one of the ref sites) and scroll
the wheel it does work ... poor mousey.

Actually, is it less convenient to scroll the toc - than to scroll the
whole thing and lose the current letter?

Any direction, please //al

Stop wanting that. <g>

No, in this case that's not acceptable to me. Since the individual letters
are so short - generally, the toc to the left is much too long - and I'm
afraid going to get longer (I know it will, I have more letters to put up).

I've tried some way to logically segregate the letters / diaries in the toc
so I can group them but nonthing comes up except to list them in date order
- any suggest there (besides 'don't want that'? :) )

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

al jones wrote:

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 01:33:17 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

al jones wrote:

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window
if I can. Meaning that I'd like the entire page to be visible
on the current users screen.
That would only work if I had a high-res monitor and a maximized
browser.

Not sure I understand what you mean there. What I'd see at 800x600
is obviously going to be less than what I'd see at 1152x864 and
still less than what I'd see at (my normal) 1600x1200.

What percentage of your visitors do you think will have a resolution
greater than 1024? And how many of them will have the browser
maximized (the important question)?
What I'd like to present is as much of the current page as the user
can actually see in their 'window'. I'm probably missing the
obvious - would you mind explaining?
A scrolling div will have .. scrollbars .. thus using up more of the
canvas for chrome, thus showing less of your content no matter what
the browser size is.

If you change the div to scroll, my mouse wheel won't work, as it
does now on the whole page. I would have to move the pointer to
the div's scrollbar and drag it, quite inconvenient.

Since we're picking on each other here - I think - I'm sorry your
mouse's scroll wheel won't work, mine does - even scrolling in
divs. If I put the cursor in the div (not mine, damnit, but one of
the ref sites) and scroll the wheel it does work ... poor mousey.

Win2K, Firefox 1.0.4. I added ( height: 10em } to your "leftbit" and
got scrollbars. S'far as I remember, your overflow: auto will only
work if a height is specified.

Stop wanting that. <g>

No, in this case that's not acceptable to me. Since the individual
letters are so short - generally, the toc to the left is much too
long - and I'm afraid going to get longer (I know it will, I have
more letters to put up).

Most people are used to scrolling a menu; I don't see it as a hardship.
I've tried some way to logically segregate the letters / diaries in
the toc so I can group them but nonthing comes up except to list
them in date order - any suggest there (besides 'don't want that'?
:) )

Don't wan.. oh. Well, I am not sure. <g>

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:

Most people are used to scrolling a menu; I don't see it as a hardship.

Let's reword that a bit. Most people are used to scrolling a *page* to
see the menu if it is taller than their browser window.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[Jim Moe]

al jones wrote:

I've tried some way to logically segregate the letters / diaries in the toc
so I can group them but nonthing comes up except to list them in date order
- any suggest there (besides 'don't want that'? :) )

You can sort them by date, subject, person, locale, weapons, rank,
regiment, family name, political affiliation, number of gods believed in,
etc. If no single one of those possibilities appeals, you could offer the
visitor a (sub)menu to select a desired sort order.

--
jmm dash list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)

[Spartanicus]

al jones <al**********@shotmail.com> wrote:

If you change the div to scroll, my mouse wheel won't work, as it does
now on the whole page. I would have to move the pointer to the div's
scrollbar and drag it, quite inconvenient.

Since we're picking on each other here - I think - I'm sorry your mouse's
scroll wheel won't work, mine does - even scrolling in divs. If I put the
cursor in the div (not mine, damnit, but one of the ref sites) and scroll
the wheel it does work ...

"Scrolling divs" are a usability nightmare. Mouse wheel scrolling is
very unreliable, it may work for some after they've clicked in the div
area, but few will do that, if it doesn't work without clicking most
will conclude that it's broken. It's worse for users with certain
popular browsers, clicking in the div area won't help, it still won't
work. Even worse for users who have a non wheel mouse. Even worse for
people who have a mouse but use the keyboard, for them it's often
impossible to get your div to scroll.

Beauregard is right: stop wanting that.

--
Spartanicus

[kchayka]

al jones wrote:

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window if I can.
That means that I'd like one or both of the divs to scroll.

Scrolling divs are bad, particularly from an accessibility viewpoint.
They can be difficult, if not impossible, to scroll via keyboard. I hear
they aren't so easy to navigate with a mousewheel, either.

You should reconsider what you want, and think more about what your
users want.

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[al jones]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 16:49:20 -0500, kchayka wrote:

al jones wrote:

URL http://aljones.us (yes, I'm back again)

I'd like to cause this whole page to fill the viewable window if I can.
That means that I'd like one or both of the divs to scroll.

Scrolling divs are bad, particularly from an accessibility viewpoint.
They can be difficult, if not impossible, to scroll via keyboard. I hear
they aren't so easy to navigate with a mousewheel, either.

You should reconsider what you want, and think more about what your
users want.

With frustration comes a sharp tongue - so I'll try to be civil.

This is a family web site - the three people who have already looked at it
have asked if there were some way to shorten the list on the left.
Basically that's a TOC of the letters and diariy entries that are the major
item on this site. *They'd* like to be able to see the existing entry in
the pane to the right and the toc in the left and scroll as needed.

At the moment it extends at something like 128 entries - and as I add more
letters, it will only grow longer. It would be easier on the people who
will probably be interested in this site - my family members, in all
likelyhood - if I were able to display a portion of the entries and allow
them to scroll it (that div) to go on to other letters. I've tried and I'm
obviously missing something. Like how to set the page length to the
currents users viewport heighth - and setting height to 100% seems to do
nothing.

I have considered - and reconsidered - and reconsidered again in light of
(all) your comments (this is not intended at just you Kachayka) and in
*our* estimation a scrollable div is the best approach to take.

While, in general, I respect your expertise - what's the harm in helping me
make my own mistakes. I'm new at this and this is, for me, probably a one
time affair. If I really mess it up then it's my problem to deal with my
families responses.

Back in the early '70s when I was learning APL for some crypto research I
worked with a really great group of guys who'd say things like "You really
don't want to do it that way, but if you must, here's how ..." Often I'd
come back later and agree that it was a mistake - but one from which I
learned.

In the late '80s when I had occasion to learn c, my cohorts (HAL-PC
members) often came up with "That's not the way to do it<period>" From
which I managed to learn nothing - except how to handle some frustration
and patience, until I could do what I wanted. Learning curve - steep;
frustration level - high.

I've taught programming (COBOL, FORTRAN, RPG, B1800 UPL) in a classroom
environment, I often had occassion to suggest to a student that their
approach waso one that would lead them down a rosy path - but I always gave
them the help they requested, if they insisted, sometimes I was pleasantly
surprised at their ingenuity. When it came time for finals I considered
what they had learned from their own misdirection.

I realize that this isn't a 'personal help desk' but saying 'don't want
that' or 'you shouldn't do that' is not, without supporting reasons, an
answer that is acceptable to me. If that's all I'm going to get then let's
take our marbles and go home.

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

al jones wrote:

This is a family web site - the three people who have already
looked at it have asked if there were some way to shorten the list
on the left. Basically that's a TOC of the letters and diariy
entries that are the major item on this site. *They'd* like to be
able to see the existing entry in the pane to the right and the toc
in the left and scroll as needed.

Have you tried adding a height to the div "leftbit" yet, as I
suggested earlier? I'm playing with it right now (Firefox and Web
Developer's toolbar), and I added height: 20em; to leftbit, and lo
the navigation scrolls in the div.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[al jones]

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:58:45 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

al jones wrote:

This is a family web site - the three people who have already
looked at it have asked if there were some way to shorten the list
on the left. Basically that's a TOC of the letters and diariy
entries that are the major item on this site. *They'd* like to be
able to see the existing entry in the pane to the right and the toc
in the left and scroll as needed.

Have you tried adding a height to the div "leftbit" yet, as I
suggested earlier? I'm playing with it right now (Firefox and Web
Developer's toolbar), and I added height: 20em; to leftbit, and lo
the navigation scrolls in the div.

Sorry, I didn't (know enough to) realize what you were saying. I found an
example that uses max-height and that too forces the scroll bar (in FF and
Opera, but not IE 6, oh well....) Book time - min-height .vs. height .vs.
max-height - gotta go find out what the differences are and mean. ((20em -
that should be a pretty short scroll, no?? :) )) Thanks Beau //al

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

al jones wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 02:58:45 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Have you tried adding a height to the div "leftbit" yet, as I
suggested earlier? I'm playing with it right now (Firefox and
Web Developer's toolbar), and I added height: 20em; to leftbit,
and lo the navigation scrolls in the div.
Sorry, I didn't (know enough to) realize what you were saying. I

Aha. In order for a div to *have* an overflow, it needs a (fixed)
dimension to overflow *from*.
found an example that uses max-height and that too forces the
scroll bar (in FF and Opera, but not IE 6, oh well....) Book time
- min-height .vs. height .vs. max-height - gotta go find out what
the differences are and mean. ((20em - that should be a pretty
short scroll, no?? :) )) Thanks Beau //al

Well, 20em looks ok to me with the browser canvas height that I have
available, ~780x450. I do have a couple of toolbars below the location
bar. 30em seems about the right height for the canvas, but then I need
to first scroll the whole page (to move your banner up out of the way)
to get the benefit of seeing the entire scrolling div.
On page http://aljones.us/Genealogy/grpmain.html
tell me what you think if you remove the centered text (links). Do you
think it becomes easier to follow? To read?

..gg-sur
{
/*text-align:center*/ <-- make default left-aligned
}

Here's another comment about the scrolling div: after choosing and
viewing any of the letters pages, the menu always returns to the top
of the listings, as it's a new page. So each time a new letter is
selected, the div must be repositioned (to move the top banner out of
the way), and rescrolled down to wherever you were.

Much as I hate to say it, using fram ... NO, I CAN'T SAY IT!

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

[al jones]

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:45:13 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

al jones wrote:

Sorry, I didn't (know enough to) realize what you were saying. I
Aha. In order for a div to *have* an overflow, it needs a (fixed)
dimension to overflow *from*.

Well, duh, that's obvious *NOW*! Damnit!!
On page http://aljones.us/Genealogy/grpmain.html
tell me what you think if you remove the centered text (links). Do you
think it becomes easier to follow? To read?

.gg-sur
{
/*text-align:center*/ <-- make default left-aligned
} Can't ypou tell I'm trying to ignore that?? :) I'd really like to find a
program that will give me a better layout all the way 'round. My major
sticking point - as with this one - is that there is the matter of personal
information on living people to contend with. But just for you, I'll
change it when I get home from work tonight.

Here's another comment about the scrolling div: after choosing and
viewing any of the letters pages, the menu always returns to the top
of the listings, as it's a new page. So each time a new letter is
selected, the div must be repositioned (to move the top banner out of
the way), and rescrolled down to wherever you were.

Much as I hate to say it, using fram ... NO, I CAN'T SAY IT!

Ya, I've thought that a couple of times but I know what kind of reaction
that gets ... I'll leave well enough alone there.

And while I may sound too facetious sometimes, *Thank you* for your
patience and elp. //al

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

al jones wrote:

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 03:45:13 GMT, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Aha. In order for a div to *have* an overflow, it needs a (fixed)
dimension to overflow *from*.
Well, duh, that's obvious *NOW*! Damnit!!

Heehee.
But just for you, I'll change it when I get home from work tonight.
I feel so special... :-D
And while I may sound too facetious sometimes, *Thank you* for your
patience and elp. //al

I'll give you all the elp I have time for ... <g>

--
-bts
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