Cross platform HTML (IE not following standards?)

[Trammel]

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox
already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.

[Tim]

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 06:46:16 GMT,
"Trammel" <[e-mail]> posted:

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
wraps it).

You have a peculiar array of non-breaking space indented text and nested
tables which I don't really want to even consider advising *much* about,
other than it's not a brilliant thing to do, and that nested lists (which
they are) with suitable CSS rules for indenting and other styling, is
probably better.

However, the wrapping problem that I can see with MSIE is at the hyphens,
not anywhere that you've used &nbsp; between words. MSIE is like that, it
does annoying and/or stupid things.

You can try putting nowrap as an attribute into the table cell [1], though
it's a deprecated technique and mightn't work in all situations. You can
apply a "white-space: pre" CSS style rule [2] in whatever element you don't
want to wrap, and that'll probably work in more situations.

1: e.g. <td nowrap>something that's wrapping</td>
2: e.g. <td style="white-space:pre;">something that's wrapping</td>

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

[David Ross]

Trammel wrote:

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and
wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox
already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.

I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.

<URL:http://validator.w3.org/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
<URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
errors.
<URL:http://webxact.watchfire.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).

With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.

[c.thornquist]

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:Yi*******************@fe1.news.blueyonder.co. uk...

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

<snip>

You have too many unnecessary tables. Plus, IE displays tables better when
they are nested. You shouldn't leave tables floating like you do. Some of
yours are nested, but most are not. And there are much better ways to build
that navigation bar. Here's a free one: http://www.coffeecup.com/free-dhtml/

Have you set all your table borders to "1" just to see what your page
structure looks like? Have you ever used transparent .gifs as spacers? They
work well to control page layout. They, too, should be used sparingly.

Carla

[Trammel]

Thanks for the links to validators... they helped a little to tidy my pages
code... but I didnt ask for help tidying it up by adding "Alt's" to links
and "px" after the CSS width's :¬/

I modifed the CSS to add "px" after the pixel widths however... so no moew
CSS errors
....and the only HTML errors are things like "Background is not valid in TD"
which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox...
....and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for 1-pixel
images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel images?!?!!!?!

Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking nested
tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators" that I dont use
ALT tags in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody here knows a
fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?

And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
pixel images!

If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators" that
say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in images >:¬O

If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned as
"errors" are either false (like saying there is no background option in the
TD element.... which DOES work to show images) or aren't even errors and
intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...
....and no... none of that has ANY relevance to the table crushing by itself
in IE!!!!
To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out to
me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/


"David Ross" <no****@nowhere.not> wrote in message
news:42***************@nowhere.not...

Trammel wrote:

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice and wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.

I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.

<URL:http://validator.w3.org/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
<URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
errors.
<URL:http://webxact.watchfire.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).

With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.

[Adrienne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Trammel" <[e-mail]> writing
in news:yX******************@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.u k:

Top posting fixed. The response is at the bottom.

"David Ross" <no****@nowhere.not> wrote in message
news:42***************@nowhere.not...

Trammel wrote:

>
> Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
> cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
>
> My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox
> but IE decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no
> breakable spaces).
>
> I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text
> in the menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead
> of normal ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still
> takes no notice and wraps it).
>
> Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers
> (Firefox already works)?
> Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.
I usually say this in defense of Mozilla and Firefox, but in this
case it will be in defense of IE. Your page is non-standard.

<URL:http://validator.w3.org/> reports 84 HTML 4.01 errors.
<URL:http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/> reports 2 style-sheer
errors. <URL:http://webxact.watchfire.com/ScanForm.aspx> reports 22
instances of violations of WAI WCAG-1 Level A (the least
restrictive level for judging accessibility for the handicapped).

With the detected bugs in the Web page, it is not possible to
determine whether IE or the page itself is at fault.

Thanks for the links to validators... they helped a little to tidy my
pages code... but I didnt ask for help tidying it up by adding "Alt's"
to links and "px" after the CSS width's :¬/

You have to have some sort of unit of measurement with CSS. With HTML, if
a unit is not a percentage, then it is a pixel. With CSS, you can have
points, picas, centimeters, inches, millimeters, pixels, ems, exes and
percentages; hence the need to specify the unit.

I modifed the CSS to add "px" after the pixel widths however... so no
moew CSS errors
...and the only HTML errors are things like "Background is not valid in
TD" which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox...
It might "work" in both IE and Firefox, but it's still invalid. The reason
it is invalid is because it is deprecated in favor of CSS. Why is CSS
better? If a client decides tomorrow that they want seasonal colors, then
the author has to go into each td and make that change, instead of making
one change in a style sheet.
...and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for
1-pixel images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel
images?!?!!!?!
If an image is for decoration only and does not convey anything, then leave
the alt attribute blank, alt="".

Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking
nested tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators" that I
dont use ALT tags in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody
here knows a fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?
Nested tables are a PITA to debug. They also take longer to load, and are
more prone to errors.

And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for
1x1 pixel images!
Again, leave the value of the alt attribute blank, alt="". How do you know
that no disabled people are going to visit your personal webpage? If your
personal webpage is on the Internet, then you really don't know who is
going to visit.

Further, because it IS a personal page, you should take pride in it. It is
a reflection of you, and your work. How do you know some potential
employer isn't going to view the page and run it through a validator?

If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators"
that say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in
images >:¬O
You have more serious validation errors than missing alt attributes. For
example, you have <font>....<table>... In the first place, a font element
can't hold a table element, and second, font is also deprecated in favor of
CSS.

It might work with this markup now, but, it might not work for other
browsers now and in the future. And yes, there are browsers other than FF
and IE.

If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned
as "errors" are either false (like saying there is no background option
in the TD element.... which DOES work to show images) or aren't even
errors and intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...
...and no... none of that has ANY relevance to the table crushing by
itself in IE!!!!

The validator does not return false errors. It is a tool to help you find
out why something is not working the way you want it to. Fix the errors
first, and then see if it might not have cleared up. Fixing the alt error
is very simple, just do a search and replace, eg: replace {<img src} with
{<img alt="" src} (curly brackets added for clarity) and you'll be good to
go.

To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out
to me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/

You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

[Peter1968]

Adrienne wrote:

You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.

What's its opening hours then? =)

[Blinky the Shark]

Peter1968 wrote:

Adrienne wrote:

You forget, this is not a 24/7 help desk.

What's its opening hours then? =)

Opening, hell...when's Happy Hour? :)

--
Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups

[Steve Pugh]

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote:

And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
pixel images!

I know exactly why IE is breaking your tables. I know exactly how to
fix it. But because you're clearly a right little shit, I'm not going
to bother wasting any time on you, and I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Stan Brown]

"Trammel" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

To anyone reading this: Sorry... irrelevant "errors" being pointed out to
me just because someone is unable to help kinda got me pissed :¬/

Translation: You didn't like the help you got , so you choose to
deny that it _is_ help.

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[Uncle Pirate]

Steve Pugh wrote:

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote:

And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
pixel images!

I know exactly why IE is breaking your tables. I know exactly how to
fix it. But because you're clearly a right little shit, I'm not going
to bother wasting any time on you, and I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.

Steve

I care about helping this idiot about as much as he cares about hearing
about me visiting his web page. (I'm disabled, I can see just fine with
one eye, but I can't walk. But, ya gotta give him that he didn't
discriminate; he doesn't seem to give a flying whatever for *any* disabled.)

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Coordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

[Harlan Messinger]

Trammel wrote:

If you dont have a fix then PLEASE dont post shite from "validators" that
say my code wont work because of things like no "Alt" tags in images >:¬O

If you hadn't gathered.... ALT tags and all the other rubbish returned as
"errors" are either false
No, sorry, they are true. You may not *care* that your code is
incorrect, but it is.

(like saying there is no background option in the TD element.... which DOES work to show images)
Define "work". Yes, some browsers have been designed to accommodate some
bad code as well as good code. But then, you can never predict which bad
code will "work" in any given browser, and if you don't think that
"works" means something other than whether a particular browser happens
to get it right, then you might wind up down the road wondering why the
heck something suddenly *doesn't* work.

Here's an analogy. A correct way to ask someone for something is "May I
please have such-and-such?" An incorrect way is "Give me some of that
such-and-such, you stupid git, or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp." The
latter may get you what you want once or twice, but if you think that
that means it "works" and that it's correct, you're in for a surprise.
or aren't even errors and intentionally left out (like ALT tags)...

If you drive down the wrong side of the road a 3 in the morning and
don't have an accident, does that mean it wasn't "wrong"?

[Stan Brown]

"Harlan Messinger" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

Here's an analogy. A correct way to ask someone for something is "May I
please have such-and-such?" An incorrect way is "Give me some of that
such-and-such, you stupid git, or I'll beat you to a bloody pulp." The
latter may get you what you want once or twice, but if you think that
that means it "works" and that it's correct, you're in for a surprise.

Good analogy, snce he seems to be taking the second approach toward
this newsgroup. :-)

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 06:14:54 GMT, "Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote:
[...]

...and most of it is "errors" that I didnt bother putting Alt's for 1-pixel
images... OMG! How could I be so careless with my 1x1 pixel images?!?!!!?!
You are missing required "ALT attribute values",
there is no such thing as an "ALT tag".
Im guessing from the amount of people complaining about not liking nested
tables & pointing out stupid error-logs from "validators" that I dont use
ALT tags...
"ALT attributes"...
...in images (and other unrelated rubbish) that nobody here knows a
fix to stop IE from crushing a table that it shouldn't?
Oh; people here knows a lot more than you know but your attitude sort
of prohibits you from seeing it.
And frankly... there wont be any disabled people visiting my personal
webpage...
Yes there is, the worlds biggest www user with built in disabilities
goes by the name of "Google". It can't see images, it can't do java
script and it can't do Flash or any other "plug in" feature either.

Whatever is left over after you remove that extra noise from your
basic markup is what Google can use to rate your pages.

But Google can, and does, read ALT attribute values so it's a pretty
good idea to tell it what your images are all about by filling in some
realistic values for your ALT attributes.

Note that for "worthless" IMG's an empty string value, as in ALT=""
may be appropriate, or better yet, don't place "worthless" info in
your pages in the first place.
so I dont give a flying f*ck if they cant read the ALT tags for 1x1
pixel images!

"ALT attributes" for crying out loud; is there something wrong with
your ears? or is your disability isolated to the volume of tapioca
pudding that you carry around /between/ your ears?

--
Rex

[Andy Dingley]

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:55:51 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:

I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.

We differ in one significant point, Steve.

You got as far as line #16, I plonked him at #8 after
"which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox..."

[Steve Pugh]

Andy Dingley <di*****@codesmiths.com> wrote:

On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:55:51 +0100, Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> wrote:

I bet I'm not he only one. Bye.

We differ in one significant point, Steve.

You got as far as line #16, I plonked him at #8 after
"which is obviously wrong as its working in both IE & Firefox..."

I somehow managed to read the whole diatribe but picked out line 16 to
quote as it served as a perfect summary of the attitude on display.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Del Ferguson]

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:Yi*******************@fe1.news.blueyonder.co. uk...

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE
decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the
menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice
and
wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox
already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.

Trammel,

After reading all of the posts in this thread I figure that if you put Tidy
on your HTML editor and add Checky and HTML Validator to your Firefox,
you'll never have to come back here again; however, if you want to go back
to the basics and fix your problem, you should follow Carla's advice and
make the borders visible. It is easy enough to go back and forth between IE
and FF (FF has add-ons for that) to see where a coding modification may be
needed. I do it all of the time--after I've got what appears to be good
solid HTML. Just the humble opinion of a school of hard-knocks coder.

Del Ferguson

[Fred Banaszak]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:46:56 +0200, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:

"ALT attributes" for crying out loud; is there something wrong with
your ears? or is your disability isolated to the volume of tapioca
pudding that you carry around /between/ your ears?

You might want to go back and read the whole message before you start
hurling epithets.

(HINT: usenet is not a real-time conversation.)

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:36:15 GMT, Fred Banaszak
<fr**********@earthlink.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:46:56 +0200, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:

"ALT attributes" for crying out loud;...

(HINT: usenet is not a real-time conversation.)

I know what Usenet is (and is not) but I wrote my comment in a way that
it would *look* like a real time conversation to the next Usenaut in
line.

You obviously missed that angle of my post.

--
Rex

[Trammel]

Thanks for the suggestions Carla.

I have tried setting all borders to 1 but the tables all look fine.

I'll checkout that DHTML menu system soon but real-life has kinda stopped me
bothering with the website as its only something I was messing with in my
spare time (but I have bookmarked the address for later).

I use a 1x1 transparent gif for spacing already and also have a 1x1 black
gif for drawing lines at side of menu... I just didnt want to fix the size
of the left menu so that it read Ok for increased text size's

Sorry it took me a while to answer but I had kinda given-up on this group
due to everyone who cant actually help just flaming :¬/

"c.thornquist" <c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:p_Y3e.132603$r55.17047@attbi_s52...

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:Yi*******************@fe1.news.blueyonder.co. uk...

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).
<snip>

You have too many unnecessary tables. Plus, IE displays tables better when
they are nested. You shouldn't leave tables floating like you do. Some of
yours are nested, but most are not. And there are much better ways to

build that navigation bar. Here's a free one: http://www.coffeecup.com/free-dhtml/
Have you set all your table borders to "1" just to see what your page
structure looks like? Have you ever used transparent .gifs as spacers? They work well to control page layout. They, too, should be used sparingly.

Carla

[Trammel]

Thanks for your reply Del.

I hadn't noticed Carla's post so checked it out and the DHTML system might
work so I'll try that later. Putting all borders on "1" doesn't show
anything abnormal though so I might be left with just moving away from a
pure text menu in favor of something that IE cant crush :¬/

The only other helpful thing I got from this group is that IE is is crushing
at the hyphens. Hyphens wont be in the "finished" personal page so I might
not have to worry about IE crushing the table in the "finished" version
after-all :)

- Trammel

"Del Ferguson" <de********@charter.net> wrote in message
news:Q5*****************@fe04.lga...

"Trammel" <[e-mail]> wrote in message
news:Yi*******************@fe1.news.blueyonder.co. uk...

Hi, I am here to request support from anyone that has idea's on
cross-browser HTML (Mainly Firefox and IE).

My personal website http://trammel.no-ip.info works fine on Firefox but IE decides to crush the left table (ingnoring that there is no breakable
spaces).

I tried using nowrap already and IE still forces a wrap of the text in the menu... thats why I tried using non-breaking spaces instead of normal
ones... so there was nowhere to break (however IE still takes no notice
and
wraps it).

Anyone got any idea's on a fix that would work for both browsers (Firefox already works)?
Thanks in advance for you time & for reading this post.
Trammel,

After reading all of the posts in this thread I figure that if you put

Tidy on your HTML editor and add Checky and HTML Validator to your Firefox,
you'll never have to come back here again; however, if you want to go back
to the basics and fix your problem, you should follow Carla's advice and
make the borders visible. It is easy enough to go back and forth between IE and FF (FF has add-ons for that) to see where a coding modification may be
needed. I do it all of the time--after I've got what appears to be good
solid HTML. Just the humble opinion of a school of hard-knocks coder.

Del Ferguson

[Fred Banaszak]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:12:45 +0200, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:36:15 GMT, Fred Banaszak
<fr**********@earthlink.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:46:56 +0200, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:

"ALT attributes" for crying out loud;...

(HINT: usenet is not a real-time conversation.)

I know what Usenet is (and is not) but I wrote my comment in a way that
it would *look* like a real time conversation to the next Usenaut in
line.

You obviously missed that angle of my post.

Yes. Well. Obviously your brand of humour, if that is what it is, went
right over my head.

[Jan Roland Eriksson]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:18:53 GMT, Fred Banaszak
<fr**********@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
[...]

...I wrote my comment in a way that it would *look* like
a real time conversation...

Yes. Well. Obviously your brand of humour, if that is what it is, went
right over...

No harm done I hope.

HAND

--
Rex