By using this site, you agree to our updated Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Manage your Cookies Settings.
440,304 Members | 3,201 Online
Bytes IT Community
+ Ask a Question
Need help? Post your question and get tips & solutions from a community of 440,304 IT Pros & Developers. It's quick & easy.

Problems with DOCTYPES

P: n/a
Hello all,

I'm having a problem with DOCTYPES. Until now, I haven't been
specifying doctypes. I want to start specifying doctypes, but am having
trouble doing so. Whenever I specify a doctype, *any* doctype, *I
almost always* get a horizontal scroll bar in IE, but not in
Firefox/Opera.

It seems as if the page stretches beyond the browsers borders. Even if
I set ultra-narrow margins and only have one word on the page, I get a
horizontal scrollbar. I can't figure out why.

For the times I don't get a scroll bar, I try building the page one
step at a time, always checking for the scroll bar. I can't detect any
sort of pattern. Sometimes it appears, sometimes it doesn't.

Is there a known bug with doctypes and IE? This is driving me crazy!

Viken

Jul 24 '05 #1
Share this Question
Share on Google+
15 Replies


P: n/a
Viken Karaguesian wrote:

Hello all,

I'm having a problem with DOCTYPES. Until now, I haven't been
specifying doctypes. I want to start specifying doctypes, but am having
trouble doing so. Whenever I specify a doctype, *any* doctype, *I
almost always* get a horizontal scroll bar in IE, but not in
Firefox/Opera.

It seems as if the page stretches beyond the browsers borders. Even if
I set ultra-narrow margins and only have one word on the page, I get a
horizontal scrollbar. I can't figure out why.

For the times I don't get a scroll bar, I try building the page one
step at a time, always checking for the scroll bar. I can't detect any
sort of pattern. Sometimes it appears, sometimes it doesn't.

Is there a known bug with doctypes and IE? This is driving me crazy!


Please give us an example of your DOCTYPE declaration or the URL to
one of your pages where you use it.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
Jul 24 '05 #2

P: n/a
In article <11*********************@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
"Viken Karaguesian" <vi****@aol.com> wrote:
It seems as if the page stretches beyond the browsers borders. Even if
I set ultra-narrow margins and only have one word on the page, I get a
horizontal scrollbar. I can't figure out why.
Check your padding, too. In the standards mode in IE, the padding is not
included in the width but widens the box beyond the width.
Is there a known bug with doctypes and IE?


Yes, but my crystal ball tells me you are not seeing it.

You may be interested in http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html
Jul 24 '05 #3

P: n/a
Sorry it took so long to reply - I just got home from work. You can see an
example of my issue at:

http://www.abakadanceschool.com/test.html

Below is the doctype that I'm using:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/frameset.dtd">

My page is a frames page and I've included the doctype in all the pages
related to the frame. I just can't seem to find a pattern or any one element
that seems to be causing this to happen. Thanks to all who reply :>)

Viken
Jul 24 '05 #4

P: n/a
Dan

Viken Karaguesian wrote:
Below is the doctype that I'm using:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/frameset.dtd">

My page is a frames page and I've included the doctype in all the pages related to the frame. I just can't seem to find a pattern or any one element that seems to be causing this to happen. Thanks to all who reply :>)


The Frameset DTD is only supposed to be used on the frameset, not on
the individual frame pages used within it.

Anyway, frames have lots of problems that make them undesirable to use:
http://webtips.dan.info/frames.html

--
Dan

Jul 24 '05 #5

P: n/a
The Frameset DTD is only supposed to be used on the frameset, not on
the individual frame pages used within it.

Anyway, frames have lots of problems that make them undesirable to use:
http://webtips.dan.info/frames.html


Thanks, I've been wondering about that. So if I use the Frameset DTD on the
frameset, should I use another doctype on the individual pages?
Jul 24 '05 #6

P: n/a
Dan wrote:

Viken Karaguesian wrote:
Below is the doctype that I'm using:

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Frameset//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/frameset.dtd">

My page is a frames page and I've included the doctype in all the

pages
related to the frame. I just can't seem to find a pattern or any one

element
that seems to be causing this to happen. Thanks to all who reply :>)


The Frameset DTD is only supposed to be used on the frameset, not on
the individual frame pages used within it.

Anyway, frames have lots of problems that make them undesirable to use:
http://webtips.dan.info/frames.html


See <URL:http://cad.chp.ca.gov/> for a rare example of effective,
appropriate use of frames.

--

David E. Ross
<URL:http://www.rossde.com/>

I use Mozilla as my Web browser because I want a browser that
complies with Web standards. See <URL:http://www.mozilla.org/>.
Jul 24 '05 #7

P: n/a
Once upon a time *Viken Karaguesian* wrote:
The Frameset DTD is only supposed to be used on the frameset, not on
the individual frame pages used within it.

Anyway, frames have lots of problems that make them undesirable to use:
http://webtips.dan.info/frames.html


Thanks, I've been wondering about that. So if I use the Frameset DTD on the
frameset, should I use another doctype on the individual pages?


Yes, for the individual pages you should use Transitional if have
links on them that you want to open pages in an other frame with the
"target" attribute. That's the only DTD where this attribute is valid.

This is what you *should* use as document declaration to make the
pages render in Standard mode:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

*But* there is a bug in IE that gives a horizontal scrollbar in framed
pages with standard mode. If you don't like that, you can leave out
the link to "loose.dtd" from the above. The page will then render in
Quirks mode, but is still valid.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

--
/Arne

Proud User of Mozilla Suite. Get your free copy here:
*English* http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/
*Svenska* http://www.mozilla.se/mozilla.shtml
Jul 24 '05 #8

P: n/a
Arne <us**@domain.invalid> wrote:
*But* there is a bug in IE that gives a horizontal scrollbar in
framed pages with standard mode.
Is this oddity documented somewhere? I've seen IE use a horizontal
scrollbar in strange situations rather randomly, on pages that don't
use frames, so it might be a more general bug.
If you don't like that, you can
leave out the link to "loose.dtd" from the above. The page will
then render in Quirks mode, but is still valid.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">


It is valid, but it does not conform to the HTML 4.01 specification
(which arbitrarily requires the use of one of specific doctype
declarations, literally).

More importantly in practice, you also get all the known and unknown
intentional and unintentional errors in the "quirks" mode, such as
wrong box model in CSS, etc.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 24 '05 #9

P: n/a
Once upon a time *Jukka K. Korpela* wrote:
Arne <us**@domain.invalid> wrote:
*But* there is a bug in IE that gives a horizontal scrollbar in
framed pages with standard mode.


Is this oddity documented somewhere? I've seen IE use a horizontal
scrollbar in strange situations rather randomly, on pages that don't
use frames, so it might be a more general bug.


That was taken from my personal experience. :)
But as I recall, I have also read about it but from my top of the head
I can't remember where.

Maybee the same oddity happends even on non framed pages, but hav'nt
notice it. I have notice Gecko browsers but not IE can show a
horizontal scroll if the width of a page is set to 100%, since the
vertical bar is not a "part" of the page as it seams to be in IE :)

If you don't like that, you can
leave out the link to "loose.dtd" from the above. The page will
then render in Quirks mode, but is still valid.

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">


It is valid, but it does not conform to the HTML 4.01 specification
(which arbitrarily requires the use of one of specific doctype
declarations, literally).

More importantly in practice, you also get all the known and unknown
intentional and unintentional errors in the "quirks" mode, such as
wrong box model in CSS, etc.


Yeah, I know that and that's one more reason why frames are evil :)

--
/Arne

Proud User of Mozilla Suite. Get your free copy here:
*English* http://www.mozilla.org/products/mozilla1.x/
*Svenska* http://www.mozilla.se/mozilla.shtml
Jul 24 '05 #10

P: n/a
DU
Arne wrote:
*But* there is a bug in IE that gives a horizontal scrollbar in framed
pages with standard mode.
IMHO, this is not correct. I tested MSIE and couldn't verify what you
say up here.

If you don't like that, you can leave out the link to "loose.dtd" from the above. The page will then render in
Quirks mode, but is still valid.

The url has this
in the frameset:
<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" cols="354,*">

in the right frame:
<body style="margin: 5px 100px 5px 100px">

Now, MSIE's browser's default margin value on body is 15px 10px. So, it
is clear why there is an horizontal scrollbar generated.

Besides resorting to frames, what I don't like at all in the page is the
use of applet for running a marquee on which the user has no control:
the user can not stop it, can not slow it down, can not turn it off.

DU
--
The site said to use Internet Explorer 5 or better... so I switched to
Mozilla 1.7.6 :)
Jul 24 '05 #11

P: n/a
Once upon a time *DU* wrote:
Arne wrote:
*But* there is a bug in IE that gives a horizontal scrollbar in framed
pages with standard mode.


IMHO, this is not correct. I tested MSIE and couldn't verify what you
say up here.


Well, it's a long time since I was dealing with it, so I don't
remember all details. But I remember that the scrolling disappeared
when the link was removed.

<snip>

--
/Arne
*I don't reply to top posters!*
Jul 24 '05 #12

P: n/a
> <frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" cols="354,*">

I changed the frame spacing from the default spacing in case that was the
problem with the scroll bar.
in the right frame:
<body style="margin: 5px 100px 5px 100px">
The above margins were done specifically to highlight the fact that even if
all the text is squeezed into the middle fo the page, I still get the scroll
bars. The normal page would not be that way.
Now, MSIE's browser's default margin value on body is 15px 10px. So, it is
clear why there is an horizontal scrollbar generated.


Again, the scroll bar is there whether the default body margin is specified
or not, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying up there.

Why does everybody seem to hate frames?

Viken
Jul 24 '05 #13

P: n/a
> The url has this
in the frameset:
<frameset framespacing="0" border="0" frameborder="0" cols="354,*">
I'm not sure what's wrong with the above statement. Is it the frame spacing?
I'm just an amateur, so don't assume That I know too much :>)
in the right frame:
<body style="margin: 5px 100px 5px 100px">


I changed the body margin to 0px and the horiz. scroll bar is still
there...

Jul 24 '05 #14

P: n/a
In article <zI********************@comcast.com>,
"Viken Karaguesian" <vi****@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote:
Why does everybody seem to hate frames?


http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html

Or while the server is unavailable:
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache....com/alertbox/
9612.html+Why+Frames+Suck+(Most+of+the+Time)&hl=en

--
Henri Sivonen
hs******@iki.fi
http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Mozilla Web Author FAQ: http://mozilla.org/docs/web-developer/faq.html
Jul 24 '05 #15

P: n/a
Tim
On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 21:03:37 -0500,
"Viken Karaguesian" <vi****@NOSPAMcomcast.net> posted:
Why does everybody seem to hate frames?


Search for "frames are evil" and you'll find scads of information about
why.

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.
Jul 24 '05 #16

This discussion thread is closed

Replies have been disabled for this discussion.