I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML and I'm not very
familiar with this standard. What I'm trying to do _should be_ pretty
simple so I hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to make a table with 2 columns split down the middle - simple
enough. In the past, without Strict HTML, I would just specify the width of
each 'cell' as 50%, but width isn't allowed in a <td> under Strict HTML.
Sometimes I would make these 2 cells 45% with a 10% cell between them to
make the spacing more readable. If I just remove the 'width' attribute',
the browser splits the screen width differently depending on what's in each
cell. Unfortunately, I need to match a format where the table is split down
the middle.
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables when
using strict HTML??
many thanks, BT
21  2849 
"BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote: I'm trying to make a table with 2 columns split down the middle - simple
enough. In the past, without Strict HTML, I would just specify the width of
each 'cell' as 50%, but width isn't allowed in a <td> under Strict HTML.
<col width="50%"> or td {width: 50%;}
Check the HTML and CSS specs if you're not sure how to apply the
above.
Sometimes I would make these 2 cells 45% with a 10% cell between them to
make the spacing more readable.
Don't use empty cells, use appropriate CSS.
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables when
using strict HTML??
See above, but are these actually tables of data or are you just using
tables to create layout columns?
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
"BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote in message
news:q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com... I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML and I'm not very
familiar with this standard. What I'm trying to do _should be_ pretty
simple so I hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to make a table with 2 columns split down the middle - simple
enough. In the past, without Strict HTML, I would just specify the width
of each 'cell' as 50%, but width isn't allowed in a <td> under Strict
HTML. Sometimes I would make these 2 cells 45% with a 10% cell between
them to make the spacing more readable. If I just remove the 'width'
attribute', the browser splits the screen width differently depending on
what's in each cell. Unfortunately, I need to match a format where the
table is split down the middle.
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables
when using strict HTML??
many thanks, BT
Don't know much about "strict" standards, but sometimes I place a row above
or below with transparent .gifs 1 pixel high in the cells. Then set the
width of the .gifs accordingly. Makes all the columns above or below exactly
as you specified in those .gifs. Adobe's Image Ready does then same thing
when you slice an image.
Will your table borders be set to "0"? If so, you won't even see the row of
..gifs.
Carla
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:30:37 GMT, c.thornquist <c.**********@insightbb.com>
wrote: "BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote in message
news:q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables
when using strict HTML??
Don't know much about "strict" standards, but sometimes I place a row above
or below with transparent .gifs 1 pixel high in the cells. Then set the
width of the .gifs accordingly. Makes all the columns above or below exactly
as you specified in those .gifs. Adobe's Image Ready does then same thing
when you slice an image.
How on earth is a spacer.gif ever going to be tabular data? If you think abusing
spacer gifs in layout tables is fine for your purposes, please keep using them,
but pointing others down that horrible faulty road is not much appreciated.
OP should really just read on tables in the w3c specs. There he'll find that in
html strict using the elements colgroup and col give good control over column
width, if it needs to be set by author. In almost all situations tabular data
will shrink or stretch a table columns width as needed, so there is no use for
setting the width by author.
--
,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
| weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
`-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'
In article <q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com>, no@xnono.com
enlightened us with...
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables when
using strict HTML??
td.half {width: 50%; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 5px;}
....
<td class="half">
Even better, class the table and provide CSS for the whole thing.
Strict requires separation of presentation and content. You have to use CSS.
Like so...
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<title>Untitled Document</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<style type="text/css">
table.even {
width: 85%;
border: 1px solid #686868;
border-collapse: collapse;
}
table.even TH{
font-weight: bold;
text-align: center;
border: 1px solid #686868;
border-collapse: collapse;
padding: 0px;
margin: 0px;
}
table.even TD{
width: 50%;
border: 1px solid #686868;
border-collapse: collapse;
padding-left: 5px;
padding-right: 5px;
padding-top: 0;
padding-bottom: 0;
margin: 0px;
}
</style>
</head>
<body>
<table class="even">
<tr>
<th>header 1</th>
<th>header 2</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>data</td>
<td>more data</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>yet more data</td>
<td>and more</td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>
--
--
~kaeli~
A backward poet writes... inverse. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
BT,
Strictly my version as follows. Passes XHTML validation. Looks OK in
either FF or IE. Control colors, background, etc., with CSS.
Del Ferguson
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<title>Test Table</title>
</head>
<body>
<table width="100%" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" summary="Test
Table">
<colgroup span="2">
<col width="50%" />
<col width="50%" /></colgroup>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>
"BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote in message
news:q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com... I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML and I'm not very
familiar with this standard. What I'm trying to do _should be_ pretty
simple so I hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to make a table with 2 columns split down the middle - simple
enough. In the past, without Strict HTML, I would just specify the width
of each 'cell' as 50%, but width isn't allowed in a <td> under Strict
HTML. Sometimes I would make these 2 cells 45% with a 10% cell between
them to make the spacing more readable. If I just remove the 'width'
attribute', the browser splits the screen width differently depending on
what's in each cell. Unfortunately, I need to match a format where the
table is split down the middle.
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables
when using strict HTML??
many thanks, BT
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:opsogrn1obx5vgts@zoete_b... On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:30:37 GMT, c.thornquist
<c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote:
"BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote in message
news:q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables
when using strict HTML??
Don't know much about "strict" standards, but sometimes I place a row
above
or below with transparent .gifs 1 pixel high in the cells. Then set the
width of the .gifs accordingly. Makes all the columns above or below
exactly
as you specified in those .gifs. Adobe's Image Ready does then same thing
when you slice an image.
<snip>
In almost all situations tabular data will shrink or stretch a table columns width as needed, so there is no use
for setting the width by author.
Sometimes you don't want the text to stretch beyond a width that is
comfortable to read. Is there a rule against using tables for anything other
than tabular data? If so, what is the rule and why was it established?
Carla
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:opsogsa11wx5vgts@zoete_b... On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:55:03 GMT, c.thornquist
<c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:30:37 GMT, c.thornquist
<c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote:
Don't know much about "strict" standards,
Is there a rule against using tables for anything other
than tabular data? If so, what is the rule and why was it established?
I suggest you too read up on w3c standards.
I know what the w3c recommends re tables. That they only be used for tabular
data. But there must be thousands of people in the industry who disagree
with them re tables, since they are used on huge, prominent news sites and
by companies like Adobe. I like tables because they allow precise control
over
placement on the page. And they are fun to build with. Kind of like working
with Legos:)
I am concerned with accessibility and tables and need to read more about it
at w3.org's site. They have a good section on how to create tables that are
accessible.
What I should have said is "there is no rule against using tables for
informational text and/or images, but the w3c frowns upon using them in that
manner."
Carla
On 30/03/2005 19:55, c.thornquist wrote:
[snip] Sometimes you don't want the text to stretch beyond a width that is
comfortable to read.
If that's the case, then specify a max-width for the relevant element.
Is there a rule against using tables for anything other than tabular data?
If you're going to author a document to the Strict DTD, you should
work toward the spirit of the document type. That is, use elements for
what they were intended. If you want to use elements for their
presentational properties, then just stick to Transitional.
[snip]
Mike
--
Michael Winter
Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "c.thornquist"
<c.**********@insightbb.com> writing in
news:lVC2e.117027$r55.8960@attbi_s52:
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:opsogsa11wx5vgts@zoete_b... On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:55:03 GMT, c.thornquist
<c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:30:37 GMT, c.thornquist
<c.**********@insightbb.com> wrote:
> Don't know much about "strict" standards,
Is there a rule against using tables for anything other
than tabular data? If so, what is the rule and why was it
established?
I suggest you too read up on w3c standards.
I know what the w3c recommends re tables. That they only be used for
tabular data. But there must be thousands of people in the industry who
disagree with them re tables, since they are used on huge, prominent
news sites and by companies like Adobe. I like tables because they
allow precise control over
placement on the page. And they are fun to build with. Kind of like
working with Legos:)
I am concerned with accessibility and tables and need to read more
about it at w3.org's site. They have a good section on how to create
tables that are accessible.
What I should have said is "there is no rule against using tables for
informational text and/or images, but the w3c frowns upon using them in
that manner."
Carla
As a developer, I find tables a PITA to work with, especially when they are
nested. It's bad enough getting a script to loop through the correct
records, let alone using a table for layout purposes.
I worked on at a large site a few years ago, and converted most of the
pages from tables to CSS. It probably took me about a month to get all the
pages done, and that was with regular coding maintenance. Each time I made
an edit on a page, I would convert it.
I would imagine some of the "big" sites don't have the time, resources, or
desire to make the conversion. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. That's
just fine, because eventually, it will be broken and they will have to fix
it.
Some of them are probably still in that "java mouseovers are the best"
mentality. I had to explain to someone the other day that what they were
looking at was not java, but javascript. The person shrugged and said,
"whatever it's called, I like it". And this was a person who probably
knows the difference.
--
Adrienne Boswell http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
I think that I answered my own question. I tried colgroup/col with the info
inserted after the <table> and before the <tr> as follows:
<table>
<COLGROUP>
<COL width="45%">
<COL width="10%">
<COL width="45%">
</colgroup>
<tr><td>
Seems to work. Please feel free to comment.
cheers, BT
"BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote in message
news:q%******************@tornado.texas.rr.com... I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML and I'm not very
familiar with this standard. What I'm trying to do _should be_ pretty
simple so I hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I'm trying to make a table with 2 columns split down the middle - simple
enough. In the past, without Strict HTML, I would just specify the width
of each 'cell' as 50%, but width isn't allowed in a <td> under Strict
HTML. Sometimes I would make these 2 cells 45% with a 10% cell between
them to make the spacing more readable. If I just remove the 'width'
attribute', the browser splits the screen width differently depending on
what's in each cell. Unfortunately, I need to match a format where the
table is split down the middle.
Is there a simple way to control the width of the columns in my tables
when using strict HTML??
many thanks, BT
c.thornquist wrote:
Sometimes you don't want the text to stretch beyond a width that is
comfortable to read. Is there a rule against using tables for anything other
than tabular data? If so, what is the rule and why was it established?
The "rule" comes from an understanding of the intent behind the design
of HTML. It's a markup language, a way of describing data. The data
consists of the parts of a document. In HTML, documents are defined to
consist of a head and a body, and the body is defined to include such
elements as paragraphs, divisions, headings, lists, tables, and forms.
The markup is supposed to reflect this division of a document into these
components.
A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*. HTML
markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.
c.thornquist wrote: What I should have said is "there is no rule against using tables for
informational text and/or images, but the w3c frowns upon using them in that
manner."
"There is no rule -- unless, of course, you count the rule that's in
HTML's official standards." Right.
Leif K-Brooks wrote: c.thornquist wrote:
What I should have said is "there is no rule against using tables for
informational text and/or images, but the w3c frowns upon using them
in that manner."
"There is no rule -- unless, of course, you count the rule that's in
HTML's official standards." Right.
I suppose that's why the 'rule' on using tables for tabular data is
under 'Guideline 5'.
--
Zif
Harlan Messinger wrote:
[...]
The "rule" comes from an understanding of the intent behind the design
of HTML. It's a markup language, a way of describing data.
I think you are confusing HTML with metadata. HTML is primarily a
means of making information accessible:
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/intro.html#h-2.2>
HTML does not provide any 'description' of page content at all,
though content within a particular HTML element may provide a
description of the content of some other element or group of
elements.
HTML provides a consistent language that can be used by a browser
to present information, as well as how to retrieve and send it.
The data
consists of the parts of a document. In HTML, documents are defined to
consist of a head and a body, and the body is defined to include such
elements as paragraphs, divisions, headings, lists, tables, and forms.
The markup is supposed to reflect this division of a document into these
components.
A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*. HTML
Such zealotry!! If using tables for non-tabular data is "lying",
please explain the following extract from the HTML 4 standard:
"The HTML table model allows authors to arrange data -- text,
preformatted text, images, links, forms, form fields, other
tables, etc. -- into rows and columns of cells."
<URL:http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.1>
Which not only infers that tables can be used to layout many types of
data, including tabular data, but even other nested tables.
Or are the authors of the HTML specification complicit in your
suggested deceit inherent in using tables for 'non-tabular' data?
markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.
HTML is intended to make information with a page accessible, it does
not 'describe content'. You may infer things about content based on
the surrounding markup, but that is not the intent of the
specification nor, probably, the author.
--
Zif
Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.net> wrote in
news:3b*************@individual.net: A table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*.
HTML markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.
I'd like to point out that *if* tables had always been used solely for
tabular data, there's a very good chance that today's modern browsers
would have the ability to display them in ways that would be very useful
for genuine tabular data, but would make no sense for layout tables and
would in fact break the layouts. At the very least, they might allow you
to lock headers in place as you scroll through a table. Some might offer
a spreadsheet-like navigable presentation of tables (in fact they might
even embed a mini-spreadsheet so that the person reading a table could
actually do simple calculations on the data). Others might offer
something similar to the "detail view" in MS-Windows controls: headers as
"buttons" that can be clicked to sort the table, dragged around to
rearrange the columns, and resized (that one would likely save a lot of
IT staff time for intranet sites producing management reports, since they
wouldn't have to write program code to produce different sort orders and
views).
All those features would greatly enhance the presentation and usability
of genuine tabular data. But there's no way for a browser to tell
whether a <table> is truly tabular or a layout hack. As things now
stand, a browser that tried to use any of those methods would simply
break a whole lot of pages. Maybe the next version of HTML should add
some attribute to <table> to let the author declare that the table is, in
fact, a table.
"Mark Parnell" <we*******@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote in message
news:1t*******************************@markparnell .com.au...
<snip> Whoah! Flashback!
--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
I know. It's kind of embarrassing to admit that you use transparent .gifs
and tables. Worse, that you like building with tables. Here's another
flashback: be sure to set your borders to "2" when building, then back to
"0" when done:)
Carla
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:46:25 -0500, Harlan Messinger
<hm*******************@comcast.net> wrote: c.thornquist wrote:
what is the rule and why was it established?
The "rule" comes from an understanding of the intent behind the design
of HTML.
snippedA table is a two-dimensional matrix of tabular data, with a meaningful
organization into rows and columns. Using a table element to lay out
text "works", but it implies that the information in its cells is
tabular data. If it isn't, you're basically lying. The layout may be
what you want, but that's not what the markup is technically *for*. HTML
markup is intended to describe content, not presentation.
not real convincing - that rule.
Pixel Perfect People need tables.
If they hadn't already had tables, they would of had to invent one.
But I dont have any rule against tables for layout. My problem with
tables is they seldom contain accessible and relevant information
unless they do contain tabular data. And even then, often the data is
not styled to emphasize whatever point is being made.
Pictures may be worth a thousand words, but there is nothing like a
well written paragraph with a proper heading and a touch of style for
positioning and emphasis to convey accessible and relevant
information. There needs to be a flow to information, if it is to lead
to a conclusion(agree) and/or an action(buy,commit).
hard to flow in a table, starts, stops, change of directions,
surrounded by many walls..
below is my example of an html strict table done with style that
manages to convey information. Yes, I used a table for layout.
(path of the y-chromosome and mtDNA through a family line) http://www.sturgood.com/dna/trace_demo.html
valid html, css, all text, and flexible. As Barbara said in above
thread, let the cells expand with content. This is a great example of
that, no table width, no cell width..
incredibly simple structure.
I assumed this could be done without a table. Perhaps by stacking divs
like cells. Float for cells, relative for rows? But why, if the table
structure exists and works?
Is this tabular data?
Sort of...
It is a meaningful organization,
But its value is in the layout.
cheers
johnSteve
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:13:42 GMT, "BT" <no@xnono.com> wrote: I inherited a simple page that needs to be Strict HTML
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