Fundamental problem with HTML, or am I missing something?

[Ghazan Haider]

When you have a long string like
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
in an html table, it pushes the table out so you have to scroll to the
right. I've tried width=100%, width=500, both in the <td> and in
<table>, have tried all the stylesheet suggestions I've found in
google and it doesnt work. Ideally I'd rather have the text
force-wrapped, else just hidden than breaking the whole page's table.

Heres the site: www.hazara.org/guestbook.php

Sure I can remove the entries or use php to wrap the strings, I'd
rather use HTML+CSS for the sake of correctness. I've tried firefox
1.0, IE6.0, Mozilla, Netscape 7.2, Opera 7.x, Konquerer.

[Mark Parnell]

Previously in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Ghazan Haider
<gh***********@gmail.com> said:

When you have a long string like
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
in an html table, it pushes the table out so you have to scroll to the
right.
Yes. This is normal and expected. My newsreader does the same thing with
long lines of text.
Ideally I'd rather have the text
force-wrapped, else just hidden than breaking the whole page's table.
Wrapping the text randomly could change the meaning. And whether the
text is too long or not in the first place depends on several factors,
including canvas width and font size.
Sure I can remove the entries or use php to wrap the strings,
Indeed.
I'd
rather use HTML+CSS for the sake of correctness.

Problem is, neither HTML or CSS can do what you want. HTML simply
describes the structure of the content. It doesn't change the content
itself. CSS merely suggests a presentation for the content.

Trying to use HTML or CSS for something they are not designed for, for
the sake of correctness, is worse than pointless.

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au

[Steve Pugh]

gh***********@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider) wrote:

When you have a long string like
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa a
in an html table, it pushes the table out so you have to scroll to the
right.
Yes. This is the correct behaviour as per the HTML and CSS specs. Any
widths given to tables or table cells are suggestions and can be
ignored by browsers in order to fully display the content. After all
the content of a table is more important than a presentation
suggestions.
I've tried width=100%, width=500, both in the <td> and in
<table>, have tried all the stylesheet suggestions I've found in
google and it doesnt work. Ideally I'd rather have the text
force-wrapped, else just hidden than breaking the whole page's table.
No way to "force wrap" it without inserting either <br> elements or
permitted line break characters (such as a space) into the text.

If you want the text hidden then overflow: hidden for the <td> should
do the trick. But if you're hiding the content you might as well
delete it.
Heres the site: www.hazara.org/guestbook.php
I don't see any need to use a table at all for that page, except
possibly for the form.
Sure I can remove the entries or use php to wrap the strings, I'd
rather use HTML+CSS for the sake of correctness.

Using a programming language to programmatically edit the content so
that it suits your requirements is the correct way to go.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

[Jukka K. Korpela]

gh***********@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider) wrote:

When you have a long string like
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa in an html table, it pushes the table out
so you have to scroll to the right.
Then don't put such a string into your table. I can understand why people
write "aaaaaaargh!", but so many a's in succession really don't make sense,
or even an impression.

And don't let others put such strings into your page either.
Heres the site: www.hazara.org/guestbook.php

Guestbooks are a constant source of confusion and problems, especially when
implemented using defective software and without adequate control
arrangements. Don't expect HTML to solve such problems.

Make the guestbook software reject or truncate or otherwise handle "words"
that exceed a reasonable limit, say 42 characters. Include a note about
this into the usage instructions.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

[Vincent De Baere]

Jukka K. Korpela was zeer hard aan het denken :

gh***********@gmail.com (Ghazan Haider) wrote:

When you have a long string like
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa in an html table, it pushes the table out
so you have to scroll to the right.
Then don't put such a string into your table. I can understand why people
write "aaaaaaargh!", but so many a's in succession really don't make sense,
or even an impression.

And don't let others put such strings into your page either.

Indeed.

Heres the site: www.hazara.org/guestbook.php

Guestbooks are a constant source of confusion and problems, especially when
implemented using defective software and without adequate control
arrangements. Don't expect HTML to solve such problems.

Couldn't agree more.
Make the guestbook software reject or truncate or otherwise handle "words"
that exceed a reasonable limit, say 42 characters. Include a note about
this into the usage instructions.

I don't think it would be a good idea to software reject or truncate
strings that exceed a 'reasonable limit'. What's reasonable anyway?

This could have various annoying side-effects (think about
programming-code expressions longer than 42 characters; or for the sake
of amusement, consider an inhabitant of
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch to post his
town name ;-))

My approach to the wrapping-problem has been not to force a thing
lay-out-wise, and to put possibly long content in a overflow:scroll
styled block level element.

The key to this however seems to be human revision of the texts. Only a
human can decide on how wrapping could change the meaning of the text.

just my ¤.02

Vincent

--
Dit is een automatische handtekening van MesNews.
Site : http://mesnews.no-ip.com

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Vincent De Baere <vd******@lilly.csoft.net> wrote:

Make the guestbook software reject or truncate or otherwise handle
"words" that exceed a reasonable limit, say 42 characters. Include a
note about this into the usage instructions.
I don't think it would be a good idea to software reject or truncate
strings that exceed a 'reasonable limit'. What's reasonable anyway?

Whatever the guestbook maintainer finds reasonable. It's his forum, he
tells the rules, and a good host tells the rules to the guest before or at
least upon entry. Just as he can forbid talk about sex or religion, he can
impose technical limitations - which would often be easier to understand
and accept.
This could have various annoying side-effects (think about
programming-code expressions longer than 42 characters; or for the sake
of amusement, consider an inhabitant of
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch to post his
town name ;-))
If you set up a guestbook, you can decide whether such postings will be
allowed, or set rules on handling them. Actually I think you _should_,
given that the postings will appear as part of an HTML page, where such
oddities can cause confusion. In many guestbook designs, they may disturb
other people's postings as well (by changing the page's overall appearance,
perhaps even the width of the page as a whole).

There are many ways to handle too long strings. An interesting idea just
came into my mind:
<span title="Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllan tysiliogogogoch">
Llanfair…</span>
(It would be more logical to use <abbr> instead, but we know IE.)

Of course, such handling (or any handling) needs to be done in the server-
side software that runs the guestbook.
My approach to the wrapping-problem has been not to force a thing
lay-out-wise, and to put possibly long content in a overflow:scroll
styled block level element.

If you decide to do so, I think the handling (in a guestbook) should be
made on a per-contribution basis. Each contribution should be a <div>
element, with width: 100% and overflow: auto, so that if it contains too
long lines, only that contribution needs horizontal scrolling.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html