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Public identifier language: meaningless or nonsense

I believe it was here that I recently saw a discussion that
pointed out that the language in the public identifier of a DTD
referes to the language in which the DTD is written and has no
bearing on what the language of the document might be.

I have only seen DTDs with EN. Granted the comments in those
DTDs were in English, but the DTD would work the same if the
comments were in Klingon or were entirely omitted. I find it
difficult to see that the parts of the DTD that are effective
are English. They look like sgmlish to me. What exactly is the
significance of "This DTD is written in <insert natural language
name here>"? How would a Spanish or a French DTD differ?

--
Lars Eighner ei*****@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/
"We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with
Kuwait." -- Bush's Ambassador April Glaspie, giving Saddam Hussein
the greenlight to invade Kuwait.
Jul 23 '05 #1
20 2275
Lars Eighner <ei*****@io.com> wrote:
I believe it was here that I recently saw a discussion that
pointed out that the language in the public identifier of a DTD
referes to the language in which the DTD is written and has no
bearing on what the language of the document might be.
Correct (on two accounts: it has been discussed here, and the language
declared there has no bearing on the document's language).
I have only seen DTDs with EN. Granted the comments in those
DTDs were in English, but the DTD would work the same if the
comments were in Klingon or were entirely omitted.
Surely. Comments are just comments.
What exactly is the
significance of "This DTD is written in <insert natural language
name here>"?
The language identifier doesn't say exactly that. It should specify the
_principal_ language used. That's its _meaning_ - and it naturally
applies only to those parts that can be interpreted as being in some
human language (as opposite to formal "languages").

Its significance is probably void. In principle it could be used for
automatic translation of DTDs (in the sense of translating comments at
least), but the language information is surely among the most trivial
problems there.

I'd guess it's there because some committee thought the language should
be declared so that could be utilized just in case someone wanted to
use it. Much like we write <html lang="fi"> in the abstract hope that
some software might some day use it. :-) (Just kidding. The lang
attribute has _some_ support and significance, so it's really not
comparable, but I think it was recommended even before there were no
application that utilize it.)
How would a Spanish or a French DTD differ?


It would have comments in Spanish or French, and it would be natural to
have its tag and element names taken from Spanish or French, so that it
would have e.g. <titre> or <título> instead of <title>.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #2
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:27:52 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
Lars Eighner <ei*****@io.com> wrote:
I have only seen DTDs with EN... [...] How would a Spanish or a French DTD differ?
It would have comments in Spanish or French, and it would be natural to
have its tag and element names taken from Spanish or French, so that it
would have e.g. <titre> or <título> instead of <title>.


Not only that (for SGML at least); even a large number of KEYWORDS
defined in the Reference Concrete Syntax can be redefined (in the SGML
declaration set) to appear in an other language while still filling the
same function in markup.

E.g. 'DOCTYPE' and 'PUBLIC' could be redefined to 'DOKUMENTTYP' and
'OFFENTLIG' (in lack of a better translation into Swedish) which then
would make the following acceptable in a doc prolog...

<!DOKUMENTTYP ... OFFENTLIG "-//REX//DTD ... //SE">

....naturally lots of keywords used in the external subset could be
redefined into keywords spelled out in another language too.

(ref. the Handbook section 13.4.7)
--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #3
JRS: In article <Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31>, dated
Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:27:52, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.
html, Jukka K. Korpela <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted :

It would have comments in Spanish or French, and it would be natural to
have its tag and element names taken from Spanish or French, so that it
would have e.g. <titre> or <título> instead of <title>.


Indeed, HTML & CSS should be upgraded to allow <centre> (deprecated),
align=centre, etc. Very little extra code should be needed.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4 ©
<URL:http://www.jibbering.com/faq/> JL/RC: FAQ of news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
Jul 23 '05 #4
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:51:38 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <Xn*****************************@193.229.0.31>, dated
Thu, 23 Dec 2004 20:27:52, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.
html, Jukka K. Korpela <jk******@cs.tut.fi> posted :

It would have comments in Spanish or French, and it would be natural to
have its tag and element names taken from Spanish or French, so that it
would have e.g. <titre> or <título> instead of <title>.

I'm not exactly sure about what the following might have to do with the
actual language specification stated for an external subset of
declarations?
Indeed, HTML & CSS should be upgraded to allow <centre> (deprecated),
And element <centre> has never ever been defined for HTML so how could
it be deprecated? (unless you want to make a point of the variations
implied by e.g. lang="en-US" and lang="en-UK")

For the rest of it, an element <center> has no right to exist in a
markup language until any one is capable to convince the majority that
the word 'center' (or 'centre') is intended to be a noun and not a verb.
align=centre, etc. Very little extra code should be needed.


Do it for your self if you really need it but on general terms output
formatting attribute/values has nothing to do in a markup language.

As for 'center' as a property value in CSS, it's already there for
inline formatting where it belongs.

--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #5
peppers, and celery (all chopped finely)
and season well.
Place in a large bowl and cool.
Add seasoned breadcrumbs and a little of the tomato gravy,
enough to make the mixture pliable.
Divide the stuffing among the cabbage leaves then roll.
Place seam down in a baking pan.
Ladle tomato gravy on top,
and bake at 325° for 30 - 45 minutes.

Umbilical Cordon Bleu

Nothing is so beautiful as the bond between mother and child,
so why not consume it?
Children or chicken breasts will work wonderfully also.

4 whole umbilical chords (or baby breasts, or chicken breasts)
4 thin slices of smoked ham, and Gruyere cheese
Flour
eggwash (milk and eggs)
seasoned bread crumbs
1 onion
minced
salt
pepper
butter
olive oil

Pound the breasts flat (parboil first if using umbilical
cords so they won?t be tough).
Place a slice of ham and cheese on each, along with some minced onion
then fold in half, trimming neatly.
Dredge in flour, eggwash, then seasoned breadcrumbs;
allow to sit for a few minutes.
Sauté in butter and olive oil until golden brown,
about 6 m
Jul 23 '05 #6
salt pork to season greens.
The technique of smothering greens can be used with many vegetables;
green beans work especially well. Meat is not necessary every day, don?t
be afraid to alter any dish to vegetarian tastes.

1 premature baby, born dead
Large bunch of mustard greens
2 white onions, 1 cup chopped celery
Vegetable oil (or hog fat)
Salt, pepper, garlic, etc.

Lightly brown onions, celery, garlic and meat in large heavy pot.
Add a little water and the greens (which should be thoroughly cleaned and washed).
Smother slowly for at least 2 hours, adding small amounts of water
when it starts to stick.
Stir frequently.
When ready - serve with rice, grilled smoked sausage, green salad, and iced tea.
Coffee and apple pie then brandy.

Maternity Ward Pot Luck Dinner

If you can?t get anything fresh from the hospital, nursery, or morgue;
you can at least get rid of all the leftovers in your refrigerator.

1 - 2 lbs. cubed meat (human flesh, chicken, turkey, beef...)
1 -2 lbs. coarsely chopped vegetables
(carrots, potatoes, turnips, cauliflower, cabbage...)
Bell pepper
onions
garlic
ginger
salt pepper, etc.
Olive oil
butter

Brown the meat and some chopped onions, peppers, and garilic in olive oil,
place in baking dish, layer with vegetables seasoning and butter.
Bake at 325° for 30 - 45 minutes.
Serve with hot dinner rolls, fruit salad
Jul 23 '05 #7
the mixture into the baby?s flesh.
Place 1 quart water in a baking pan, the meat on a wire rack.
Bake uncovered in 250° oven for 1½ hours.
When browned, remove and glaze,
return to oven and bake 20 minutes more to form a glaze.
Cut ribs into individual pieces and serve with extra sauce.

Fresh Sausage

If it becomes necessary to hide the fact that you are eating
human babies, this is the perfect solution.
But if you are still paranoid, you can substitute pork butt.

5 lb. lean chuck roast
3 lb. prime baby butt
2 tablespoons each:
salt
black, white and cayenne peppers
celery salt
garlic powder
parsley flakes
brown sugar
1 teaspoon sage
2 onions
6 cloves garlic
bunch green onions, chopped

Cut the children?s butts and the beef roast into pieces
that will fit in the grinder.
Run the meat through using a 3/16 grinding plate.
Add garlic, onions and seasoning then mix well.
Add just enough water for a smooth consistency, then mix again.
Form the sausage mixture into patties or stuff into natural casings.

Stillborn Stew

By definition, this meat cannot be had altogether fresh,
but have the lifeless unfortunate available immediately after delivery,
or use high quality beef or pork roasts (it is cheaper and better to
cut up a whole roast than to buy stew meat).

1 stillbirth, de-boned and cubed
¼ cup vegetable oil
2 large onion
Jul 23 '05 #8
JRS: In article <pt********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:43:12, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.h
tml, Jan Roland Eriksson <jr****@newsguy.com> posted :
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:51:38 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Indeed, HTML & CSS should be upgraded to allow <centre> (deprecated),


And element <centre> has never ever been defined for HTML so how could
it be deprecated? (unless you want to make a point of the variations
implied by e.g. lang="en-US" and lang="en-UK")

For the rest of it, an element <center> has no right to exist in a
markup language until any one is capable to convince the majority that
the word 'center' (or 'centre') is intended to be a noun and not a verb.


In English, "centre" is a noun, verb, and adjective, at least; and
"center" is an error. What "center" may be in American grammar is of
little interest.

Tag <centre> is clearly an appropriately-lettered tag for introducing
centred material in a markup-for-layout language; and that is the
correct spelling of the word in a substantial majority of countries.

The tag <center> is recognised by browsers, but is AIUI now deprecated
for Web authoring; the tag <centre> should naturally have the same
status.
align=centre, etc. Very little extra code should be needed.


Do it for your self if you really need it but on general terms output
formatting attribute/values has nothing to do in a markup language.


How does one do it for oneself if one's aim is to produce a page to be
published on the Web and read by current and previous browsers?

As for 'center' as a property value in CSS, it's already there for
inline formatting where it belongs.


That's "center", not "centre".

Perhaps, being foreign, you have failed to understand that the
suggestion is that HTML should allow, in addition to the abomination
"center", the correct spelling "centre".

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
I find MiniTrue useful for viewing/searching/altering files, at a DOS prompt;
free, DOS/Win/UNIX, <URL:http://www.idiotsdelight.net/minitrue/> Update hope?
Jul 23 '05 #9
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:29:49 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Perhaps, being foreign, you have failed to understand that the
suggestion is that HTML should allow, in addition to the abomination
"center", the correct spelling "centre".


Comment on "referer" then...

Jul 23 '05 #10
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:29:49 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <pt********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Sat, 25 Dec 2004 11:43:12, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.h
tml, Jan Roland Eriksson <jr****@newsguy.com> posted :
On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 11:51:38 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Indeed, HTML & CSS should be upgraded to allow <centre> (deprecated),
And element <centre> has never ever been defined for HTML so how could
it be deprecated?... For the rest of it, an element <center> has no right to exist in a
markup language until any one is capable to convince the majority that
the word 'center' (or 'centre') is intended to be a noun and not a verb.
In English, "centre" is a noun,
Where? Examples please.
verb,
Likewise.
and adjective,
Likewise.
...What "center" may be in American grammar is of little interest.
I was once in a very fortunate situation, some 40+ years back, to have
an English teacher that described to us pupils in class that...

"the official English grammar is described on the first five pages in
your grammar book. The other 550 pages that comes after those first
five, lists all the grammatical exceptions that are valid for this
language called English".

From that point in life I have been able to work in just about all parts
of this world, knowing only Swedish and some form of English (with a
backup of a basic knowledge of German).

And mind you, this teacher of mine was actually talking about "the
Queeny stuff".

[...]
Perhaps, being foreign,...
Well, you do also belong to a "foreign minority" in the eyes of our
world :-)
...you have failed to understand that the suggestion is that HTML
should allow, in addition to the abomination "center", the correct
spelling "centre".


Perhaps you have totally failed to understand what a 'NAME TOKEN' really
is in a markup language?

--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #11
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:52:02 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:
In English, "centre" is a noun,


Where? Examples please.


Oh, but the good Dr. is correct.

This is the centre of the room.
verb,


Likewise.


Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.
and adjective,


Likewise.


Coo! Edwards has taken centre stage!
...What "center" may be in American grammar is of little interest.
Oh, but it is to me! And your little "variant" (ha ha) is clearly of
interest to me as well...
...you have failed to understand that the suggestion is that HTML
should allow, in addition to the abomination "center", the correct
spelling "centre".


Perhaps you have totally failed to understand what a 'NAME TOKEN' really
is in a markup language?


Or the fact that a Dane could have come up with his own, and we'd ALL be
fucked?

Jul 23 '05 #12
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:14:35 -0500, Neal <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:52:02 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:
In English, "centre" is a noun,


Where? Examples please.


Oh, but the good Dr. is correct.

This is the centre of the room.


Sure; but you can not use "centre" from that context to tell a www
client to put things in the middle of its presentational area, lest you
do commit a "crime" on the first five pages of my English grammar (which
will later be fully excused some where among the other 550 pages of
exceptions)
verb,

Likewise.


Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.


Yes, and that is the one that shall not be a part of markup, at least
not for those who understands the basic of markup.
and adjective,

Likewise.


Coo! Edwards has taken centre stage!


That one beats me. An adjective is supposed to describe a characteristic
part of what it refers to. I can not see anything to that effect here.
(it's probably described some where among those 550 pages)

[...]
Perhaps you have totally failed to understand what a 'NAME TOKEN' really
is in a markup language?


Or the fact that a Dane could have come up with his own, and we'd ALL be
fucked?


Yet another comment from one who has more studies in front of him self.
(hint; there is nothing in a 'NAME TOKEN' that is language related)

--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #13
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 04:53:24 +0100, Jan Roland Eriksson
<jr****@newsguy.com> wrote:

and adjective,
Likewise.


Coo! Edwards has taken centre stage!


That one beats me. An adjective is supposed to describe a characteristic
part of what it refers to. I can not see anything to that effect here.
(it's probably described some where among those 550 pages)


Better: In the centre ring, see the man eating lion!
Perhaps you have totally failed to understand what a 'NAME TOKEN'
really
is in a markup language?


Or the fact that a Dane could have come up with his own, and we'd ALL be
fucked?


Yet another comment from one who has more studies in front of him self.
(hint; there is nothing in a 'NAME TOKEN' that is language related)


I'm agreeing with you, shut up. The tag is a tag, and the name is a name.
Jul 23 '05 #14
JRS: In article <ed********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:52:02, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.h
tml, Jan Roland Eriksson <jr****@newsguy.com> posted :
In English, "centre" is a noun,


Where? Examples please.
verb,


Likewise.
and adjective,


Likewise.


Buy yourself a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, and look it up.
Even the Little OD has them all, but you should be able to afford at
least a Concise; don't order the full version without first checking
available shelving for size and strength. This is a newsgroup on Web
authoring, but teaching the grammar of the language is not part of its
job.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SonOfRFC1036)
Jul 23 '05 #15
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 13:23:09 +0000, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <ed********************************@4ax.com>, dated
Wed, 29 Dec 2004 01:52:02, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.h
tml, Jan Roland Eriksson <jr****@newsguy.com> posted :
In English, "centre" is a noun,
Where? Examples please.
verb,


Likewise.
and adjective,


Likewise.


Buy yourself a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary...


I already have a copy of the "Oxford Illustrated", works for me, and at
least my copy has a /v/ after the word "center". (and yes, I did spell
that "center" word correctly as given in the book)

[...]
...teaching the grammar of the language is not part of its job.


If you need a yard of books in your book shelf to fully describe "the
Queens English" it seems to me that my teacher was right.

"the English grammar is described on the first five pages, the other 550
pages lists the exceptions" :-)

--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #16
In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, Neal
(ne*****@yahoo.com) dropped a +5 bundle of words...


Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.


The only time I've ever heard the word perambulator used (before now,
that is) was in the movie "The Time Machine".
--
Starshine Moonbeam
mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM



Jul 23 '05 #17
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:59:53 -0600, Starshine Moonbeam
<si*********@tacoshells.com> wrote:
In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, Neal
(ne*****@yahoo.com) dropped a +5 bundle of words...


Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.


The only time I've ever heard the word perambulator used (before now,
that is) was in the movie "The Time Machine".


Monty Python and the Holy Grail - "I have to push the pram a lot!"
Jul 23 '05 #18
In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, Neal
(ne*****@yahoo.com) dropped a +5 bundle of words...
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:59:53 -0600, Starshine Moonbeam
<si*********@tacoshells.com> wrote:
In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, Neal
(ne*****@yahoo.com) dropped a +5 bundle of words...


Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.


The only time I've ever heard the word perambulator used (before now,
that is) was in the movie "The Time Machine".


Monty Python and the Holy Grail - "I have to push the pram a lot!"


Pram's a baby carriage.

--
Starshine Moonbeam
mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM



Jul 23 '05 #19
Starshine Moonbeam <si*********@tacoshells.com>:
Neal
>> Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.
>
> The only time I've ever heard the word perambulator used (before now,
> that is) was in the movie "The Time Machine".


Monty Python and the Holy Grail - "I have to push the pram a lot!"


Pram's a baby carriage.


Bingo. <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pram> -
check the second sense.
Jul 23 '05 #20
In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, Neal
(ne*****@yahoo.com) dropped a +5 bundle of words...
Starshine Moonbeam <si*********@tacoshells.com>:
Neal
>> Centre the painting between the lift and the perambulator.
>
> The only time I've ever heard the word perambulator used (before now,
> that is) was in the movie "The Time Machine".

Monty Python and the Holy Grail - "I have to push the pram a lot!"


Pram's a baby carriage.


Bingo. <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pram> -
check the second sense.


See, in The Time Machine they're referring to a steam powered car, not a
baby carriage so I just thought it was an old word for car.
--
Starshine Moonbeam
mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM



Jul 23 '05 #21

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