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Markup for link to foreign languages ?

P: n/a
Assume an English language page, linking to a foreign history resource
that's only available in a foreign language. Any suggestions on
appropriate "best practice" markup, particularly regarding the scope
of a lang attribute applied to a <a> element ?

<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #1
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47 Replies


P: n/a


Andy Dingley wrote:
Assume an English language page, linking to a foreign history resource
that's only available in a foreign language. Any suggestions on
appropriate "best practice" markup, particularly regarding the scope
of a lang attribute applied to a <a> element ?

<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>


What about hreflang e.g.
<a hrefleng="es"
see
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/li...#adef-hreflang
that seems to be the proper attribute.

--

Martin Honnen
http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/
Jul 23 '05 #2

P: n/a
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>


<a href=... lang="es" title=Biography of Francisco de Miranda">
Francisco de Miranda, biograf&iacute;a</a>

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
Andy Dingley wrote:
Assume an English language page, linking to a foreign history resource
that's only available in a foreign language. Any suggestions on
appropriate "best practice" markup, particularly regarding the scope
of a lang attribute applied to a <a> element ?

<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>


From the HTML spec:

hreflang = langcode [CI]
This attribute specifies the base language of the resource
designated by href and may only be used when href is specified.

In other words, lang is used to denote the language of the content of
the element, and hreflang is used to denote the language of the linked
resource. so in your example, you should use:

....lang="en" hreflang="es"... - the lang being superfluous really if
the base language is already English.

In the LINK element, lang is used to denote the language of the title
attribuet and hreflang, as above, denotes the language of the linked
resource.

--
Chris Simon
os******@slcszetnet.co.uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/csimon/

** Get rid of all SLCs to reply directly **
Jul 23 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Chris Simon wrote:
In the LINK element, lang is used to denote the language of the title
attribuet [...]


How do you come to this conclusion?

Jul 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Chris Simon wrote:
In the LINK element, lang is used to denote the language of the title
attribuet [...]


How do you come to this conclusion?


From HTML spec section 12.3.3...

In the following example, we use the hreflang attribute to tell search
engines where to find Dutch, Portuguese, and Arabic versions of a
document. Note the use of the charset attribute for the Arabic manual.
Note also the use of the lang attribute to indicate that the value of
the title attribute for the LINK element designating the French manual
is in French.

<HEAD>
<TITLE>The manual in English</TITLE>
<LINK title="The manual in Dutch"
type="text/html"
rel="alternate"
hreflang="nl"
href="http://someplace.com/manual/dutch.html">
<LINK title="The manual in Portuguese"
type="text/html"
rel="alternate"
hreflang="pt"
href="http://someplace.com/manual/portuguese.html">
<LINK title="The manual in Arabic"
type="text/html"
rel="alternate"
charset="ISO-8859-6"
hreflang="ar"
href="http://someplace.com/manual/arabic.html">
<LINK lang="fr" title="La documentation en Fran&ccedil;ais"
type="text/html"
rel="alternate"
hreflang="fr"
href="http://someplace.com/manual/french.html">
</HEAD>

--
Chris Simon
os******@slcszetnet.co.uk
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/csimon/

** Get rid of all SLCs to reply directly **
Jul 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 18:48:44 +0100, Martin Honnen <ma*******@yahoo.de>
wrote:
What about hreflang


Perfect ! I'd never noticed that before.

Now, I wonder what I should do about xml:lang ? I guess that stays
as English, along with lang.
Jul 23 '05 #7

P: n/a
Andy Dingley <di*****@codesmiths.com> wrote:
Assume an English language page, linking to a foreign history resource
that's only available in a foreign language. Any suggestions on
appropriate "best practice" markup, particularly regarding the scope
of a lang attribute applied to a <a> element ?
In practice, it doesn't matter much. As discussed previously in this
group, language markup is of rather limited usefuless and might even
cause problems. It might be best to use language markup only for longish
fragments of text in a language other than its environment.

But in principle...
<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>


.... the WAI rules require that all changes in language be indicated, so
the name Francisco de Miranda should have lang="en", or perhaps
preferably lang="en-VE". You can do that for the occurrence in the text,
using <span>, and somewhat problematically separating the name from the
genitive suffix (which is English, not Spanish). But for the title
attribute, that's impossible if the rest of the text there is English;
you cannot indicate language changes inside attribute values (assuming
you don't want to use Unicode language tag characters, and you really
don't).

Assuming you are prepared to change the title attribute into Spanish, the
full language markup would be

<span lang="es-VE" xml:lang="es-VE">Francisco de Miranda</span>’s
<a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biograf&iacute;a de Francisco de Miranda"
hreflang="es"
lang="es-VE" xml:lang="es-VE">
<span lang="en" xml:lang="en">biography</span></a>

Replace "en" by "en-US", "en-GB", or something else, to match the version
of English used in the document in general. Replace "es" by the version
of Spanish used in the biography, if known.

Note that by definition, lang and xml:lang specify the language of the
element's content _and all attributes_. If you need to indicate the
language of an attribute as different from that of the content, the only
way is to introduce auxiliary markup, as <span> above.

(I omitted the <p> markup, which is irrelevant to the question, and isn't
semantically correct here - the text does not constitute a paragraph.)

This was mainly intended to demonstrate that full language markup doesn't
pay off (yet).

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #8

P: n/a
On Tue, 23 Nov 2004, Chris Simon wrote:
In the LINK element, lang is used to denote the language of the title
attribuet [...]


How do you come to this conclusion?


From HTML spec section 12.3.3...


Oops, I'm sorry! I did not read your posting carefully enough.
I was thinking of the A element because the OP asked about anchor
and not about LINK.

Returning to the A element, I do think the following is right:

<a href=... lang="es" title="Biography">Biografía</a>

Jul 23 '05 #9

P: n/a
Chris Simon wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
Assume an English language page, linking to a foreign history
resource that's only available in a foreign language. Any
suggestions on appropriate "best practice" markup, particularly
regarding the scope of a lang attribute applied to a <a> element ?

<p>Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="es" >biography</a></p>


From the HTML spec:

hreflang = langcode [CI]
This attribute specifies the base language of the resource
designated by href and may only be used when href is specified.


I wonder if this is actually useful HTML (i.e. understood in meaningful
ways which improved rendering) in at least one of today's popular
browsers or search engines.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com
Jul 23 '05 #10

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop <nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
Returning to the A element, I do think the following is right:

<a href=... lang="es" title="Biography">Biografía</a>


That would claim that "Biography" is a Spanish word. I don't think this
matters much in practice, but then again, this whole language markup
issue is not very practical at present.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #11

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
I wonder if this is actually useful HTML (i.e. understood in meaningful
ways which improved rendering) in at least one of today's popular
browsers or search engines.


Meantime, I guess the browser developers are asking themselves "I
wonder whether any popular web sites actually use this in their
pages". So, nothing happens.

For instance, my <link rel="whatever" ...> references did nothing in
the "popular" browsers for many years, although they didn't cause any
obvious harm (and they were useful in Lynx, and a couple of minority
graphical browsers). Somebody has to make a start, no? And now
Mozilla has caught up (although, for some reason, they still seem to
hide them by default).
Jul 23 '05 #12

P: n/a
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Philipp Lenssen wrote:
I wonder if this is actually useful HTML (i.e. understood in
meaningful ways which improved rendering) in at least one of
today's popular browsers or search engines.
Meantime, I guess the browser developers are asking themselves "I
wonder whether any popular web sites actually use this in their
pages". So, nothing happens.


Interesting thought.

For myself, I gave up on implementing things which are of purely
theoretical and no pragmatic effort whatsoever, at least if they mean
additional work (however small this may be).

By the way, I could imagine one pragmatic use already: display a flag
next to "foreign-language links" using Firefox's CSS capabilities (IE,
for all I know, totally ignores attribute-selectors such as "a[@href]".)
For instance, my <link rel="whatever" ...> references did nothing in
the "popular" browsers for many years, although they didn't cause any
obvious harm (and they were useful in Lynx, and a couple of minority
graphical browsers).
I include this "link" in some of my sites, but only because I knew at
least Opera would render it in a useful way!
Somebody has to make a start, no?
I think it's totally up to the browser vendors. Imagine, what is
easier: one browser vendor saying "Oh, let's include [fancy feature]
even only a handful people use it, it will take us 10 programmers two
weeks, plus we can advertise the W3C feature" or one web site creator
saying "Oh, I will start a movement that will convince 100,000
webmasters to finally start using [fancy feature] so the browsers will
start implementing it".

As soon as a browser implements a feature thousands (millions?) of
people start to use it! (Even when it's proprietary stuff.)
And now
Mozilla has caught up (although, for some reason, they still seem to
hide them by default).


OK.... Mozilla/ Firefox seems to be a step backwards in some
directions, especially user-stylesheets.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com
Jul 23 '05 #13

P: n/a
Philipp Lenssen wrote:
By the way, I could imagine one pragmatic use already: display a flag
next to "foreign-language links" using Firefox's CSS capabilities (IE,
for all I know, totally ignores attribute-selectors such as
"a[@href]".)


Oh yeah, let's not get into the discussion if flags are useful for
designating a language, I think Jukka has some good articles on that.

--
Google Blogoscoped
http://blog.outer-court.com
Jul 23 '05 #14

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:22:31 +0100, Andreas Prilop
<nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
Returning to the A element, I do think the following is right:

<a href=... lang="es" title="Biography">Biografía</a>
That might be right, but it's the inverse of what I'm after. I'm
thinking of a page in English, targeted at English readers, where the
linked resource is in Spanish because that's all there is available.

I'm pretty certain (thanks to Martin) that the best markup would be
this:

Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="en"
hreflang="es"biography (in Spanish)</a>


Jul 23 '05 #15

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
I'm pretty certain (thanks to Martin) that the best markup would be
this:

Francisco de Miranda's <a
href="http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/miranda_oci.html"
title="Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)"
lang="en"
hreflang="es"
>biography (in Spanish)</a>


I don't understand what the use of your "title" is.
On the page, you have
Francisco de Miranda's biography (in Spanish)

Your title is
Biography of Francisco de Miranda (in Spanish)

Jul 23 '05 #16

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:20:48 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

[on link...]
Somebody has to make a start, no? And now
Mozilla has caught up (although, for some reason, they still seem to
hide them by default).


I think no-one's yet worked out a good interface for them that work
with the whole myriad of options available to link, your site works,
but yours are clear, and you're not using things like foaf or ICBM or
any one of the myriad of things which don't have such clear UI's

Jim.
--
comp.lang.javascript FAQ - http://jibbering.com/faq/

Jul 23 '05 #17

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:22:24 +0100, Andreas Prilop
<nh******@rrzn-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote:
I don't understand what the use of your "title" is.


My use of title is arbitrary and constructed quickly just for this
example - I'm not claiming the wording is the best it could be !

_But_ the page text and the title attribute are both in English.

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #18

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
_But_ the page text and the title attribute are both in English.


The problem (if it's serious enough to be called a problem) that's
been aired here seems to be that if the <a href...> has a title
attribute that is in a different language than the language of the <a>
element content itself, there's no correct way to mark the languages
up. (Irrespective of the hreflang attribute, about which there seems
to be no problem).

Or have I missed the point too?
Jul 23 '05 #19

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:58:17 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
The problem (if it's serious enough to be called a problem) that's
been aired here seems to be that if the <a href...> has a title
attribute that is in a different language than the language of the <a>
element content itself,


That would be a problem (albeit trivial). But would it ever arise ?
Why would you write a title in a language other than that of the page?
Citing a foreign proper name is hardly the same thing as writing in
another language.

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #20

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 01:15:11 +0000, Andy Dingley <di*****@codesmiths.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:58:17 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
The problem (if it's serious enough to be called a problem) that's
been aired here seems to be that if the <a href...> has a title
attribute that is in a different language than the language of the <a>
element content itself,


That would be a problem (albeit trivial). But would it ever arise ?
Why would you write a title in a language other than that of the page?
Citing a foreign proper name is hardly the same thing as writing in
another language.


What if the [title] is a short description of the destination that is in a
different language, and you want that [title] to be in the language your
own page is in?

Like:
This message is in English, but I refer to a newsgroup, <a
href="news:nl.internet.www.ontwerp" title="niwo: a Dutch newsgroup on
design for the world wide web">nl.internet.www.ontwerp</a>, that has many
discussions on design for the www (in Dutch though).

Where do I put lang="nl", if I would put it anywhere?

I do that by putting nl.internet.www.ontwerp in a span with the language
attribute.

--
Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #21

P: n/a
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
I do that by putting nl.internet.www.ontwerp in a span with the
language attribute.


That's problematic in language markup - as many expressions are. The name
of a Usenet group is neither pure code nor any human language but the
mixture of the two. You don't write things like that (with full stops
between words) in Dutch or any natural language, and e.g. "nl" is a
country code, not even an abbreviation of a Dutch word. Often the
components of such a name are more or less contracted or mutated (e.g.,
"comp" for "computers" or "computation", or with significant diacritics
omitted to restrict the name to Ascii characters).

Here the various potential ways of utilizing language markup are in
conflict. If you use a spelling checker (say, open an HTML document in
MS Word that contains relevant language packs), anything declared as
being in Dutch will be checked by Dutch rules, whereas if you have
declared lang="und" or lang="", then it would be logical for a checker to
skip the content. But on the other hand, even though the string is not in
Dutch, it would best we written by Dutch rules, at least as far as some
components are considered. But actually, if the surrounding text is in
English, shouldn't the full stops be read in English (whether as "full
stop", "period", "dot", or something else)? So language markup really
becomes a tricky issue when you get into details and practice; I guess
this is why the W3C recommends that everyone use detailed language markup
in all documents, yet doesn't use it (even in the recommendations
themselves). :-)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #22

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:09:38 +0100, "Barbara de Zoete"
<b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
Where do I put lang="nl", if I would put it anywhere?


As I understand it, you don't. You'd use lang="en" and hreflang="nl".
The lang attribute refers to the source document, the hreflang to the
target of the link. Once I was pointed to hreflang's existence, the
rest is obvious,

Title attribute and the text content of the <a> element are bound
together (both to lang), but that (as I see it) is a reasonable limit
as they'll never need to differ.

A proper name or a newsgroup title are untranslatable. "Francisco de
Miranda" or "news:nl.internet.www.ontwerp" might be created in
Spanish or Dutch, but they're still valid in English and it's
inappropriate to attempt to translate them.
--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #23

P: n/a
Andy Dingley wrote:

That would be a problem (albeit trivial). But would it ever arise ?
Why would you write a title in a language other than that of the page?
Citing a foreign proper name is hardly the same thing as writing in
another language.


Mainly a problem with mixed language content. The language information
is useful for spellchecking as well as rendering content as audio, for
example

<a href="..." title="Nouvelles en Belgique/Nieuws op België">Nouvelles
en Belgique/Nieuws op België</a>

There is no way to indicate the language of the title attribute and tell
a screenreader that "Nouvelles en Belgique" is French and "Nieuws op
België" is Dutch (or close at least :-))

--
Klaus Johannes Rusch
Kl********@atmedia.net
http://www.atmedia.net/KlausRusch/
Jul 23 '05 #24

P: n/a
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:12:47 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
<jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote:

[...]
...but then again, this whole language markup
issue is not very practical at present.


Judging from a look back at what I have saved on paper in my book shelf,
it seems like UTD might be the answer? :-)
(given a usable implementation of course)

--
Rex
Jul 23 '05 #25

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
A proper name or a newsgroup title are untranslatable.
Generally true these days, although people used to translate their
own names (e.g Georg Friedrich Händel -> George Frederic Handel).
However, a marker which shows what language the components of a
newsgroup name are in (which also serves, for lack of something
better, as an indication of what language is likely to be used in
postings on that newsgroup) seems to me a plausible enough use of a
language indicator.

I don't believe that translatability is the sole criterion of using
language markup.
"Francisco de Miranda" or "news:nl.internet.www.ontwerp" might be
created in Spanish or Dutch, but they're still valid in English and
it's inappropriate to attempt to translate them.


True; but a language indicator could e.g give IBM HPR a clue on how to
pronounce them, and could help a visual browser to choose a suitable
font. As Andreas Prilop has pointed out, there are browsers in common
use where language attributes may influence the choice of font.

Jul 23 '05 #26

P: n/a
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
I do that by putting nl.internet.www.ontwerp in a span with the
language attribute.


That's problematic in language markup - as many expressions are. The
name of a Usenet group is neither pure code nor any human language
but the mixture of the two. You don't write things like that (with
full stops between words) in Dutch or any natural language, and e.g.
"nl" is a country code, not even an abbreviation of a Dutch word.


<KNIP>

It is.
NL = NetherLands

--
Regards,
Gerard Schaefers
Voor meer kook- en eetplezier? Kijk hier!
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sjeef/Nederlands/recepten.html
Jul 23 '05 #27

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 12:03:07 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
A proper name or a newsgroup title are untranslatable.
Generally true these days, although people used to translate their
own names (e.g Georg Friedrich Händel -> George Frederic Handel).


Maybe untranslatable is wrong and "unneccessary to translate" is a
better term. GF Handel can translate his own name if he so wishes, but
it would be wrong for me as a web page designer to do it for him.
However, a marker which shows what language the components of a
newsgroup name are in (which also serves, for lack of something
better, as an indication of what language is likely to be used in
postings on that newsgroup) seems to me a plausible enough use of a
language indicator.
Reasonable, but that's a use for hreflang (referring to the target
itself) not for lang (referring to annotation on the source)

I don't believe that translatability is the sole criterion of using
language markup.


I agree. But this non-translatability condition is another reason why
specific markup may not be required for "foreigners" in a page.

--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #28

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
The problem (if it's serious enough to be called a problem) that's
been aired here seems to be that if the <a href...> has a title
attribute that is in a different language than the language of the <a>
element content itself,


That would be a problem (albeit trivial). But would it ever arise ?
Why would you write a title in a language other than that of the page?


It seems you mixed up the TITLE element and the TITLE attribute.
Of course, the TITLE element of a page should be in the language
of that page.

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #29

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
Title attribute and the text content of the <a> element are bound
together (both to lang), but that (as I see it) is a reasonable limit
as they'll never need to differ.


I ask again: Why should anyone write
<a href=... title="Biography">Biography</a> ?
This makes no sense.

However, writing
<a href=... title="Biography">Biografía</a>
does make sense: The English title explains the Spanish word
biografía.

Jul 23 '05 #30

P: n/a
Els
Sjeef wrote:
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
I do that by putting nl.internet.www.ontwerp in a span
with the language attribute.


That's problematic in language markup - as many
expressions are. The name of a Usenet group is neither
pure code nor any human language but the mixture of the
two. You don't write things like that (with full stops
between words) in Dutch or any natural language,
We wouldn't want the speech browser to say
nl.internet.double-u-double-u-double-u.ontwerp.
and e.g.
"nl" is a country code, not even an abbreviation of a
Dutch word.


<KNIP>

It is.
NL = NetherLands


Correction: Netherlands is not a Dutch word <g>
NL stands for Nederland, which is the Dutch word ;-)

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Jul 23 '05 #31

P: n/a
Els wrote:
Sjeef wrote:
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:

I do that by putting nl.internet.www.ontwerp in a span
with the language attribute.

That's problematic in language markup - as many
expressions are. The name of a Usenet group is neither
pure code nor any human language but the mixture of the
two. You don't write things like that (with full stops
between words) in Dutch or any natural language,
We wouldn't want the speech browser to say
nl.internet.double-u-double-u-double-u.ontwerp.
and e.g.
"nl" is a country code, not even an abbreviation of a
Dutch word.


<KNIP>

It is.
NL = NetherLands


Correction: Netherlands is not a Dutch word <g>
NL stands for Nederland, which is the Dutch word ;-)


Absolutely correct. :-))

--
Regards,
Gerard Schaefers
Voor meer kook- en eetplezier? Kijk hier!
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sjeef/Nederlands/recepten.html
Jul 23 '05 #32

P: n/a
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
However, a marker which shows what language the components of a
newsgroup name are in
I think that bit was OK ...
(which also serves, for lack of something better, as an indication
of what language is likely to be used in postings on that
newsgroup)
Reasonable, but that's a use for hreflang (referring to the target
itself)
You're right, indeed. Sorry, I must do more logic checks on my
postings, evidently.
not for lang (referring to annotation on the source)


I think we've pretty much exhausted this topic - and probably many of
our readers too - so I'll say EOT for me on this.

all the best.
Jul 23 '05 #33

P: n/a
Andy Dingley wrote:
"Alan J. Flavell" wrote:
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
A proper name or a newsgroup title are untranslatable.


Generally true these days, although people used to translate their
own names (e.g Georg Friedrich Händel -> George Frederic Handel).


Maybe untranslatable is wrong and "unneccessary to translate" is a
better term. GF Handel can translate his own name if he so wishes,
but it would be wrong for me as a web page designer to do it for him.


Well, a historian may wish to use the translation of a name, e.g., Karl
der Grosse, or Karl le Gros, or Charlemagne, or Carolus Magnus, and mark
it up appropriately.

Ok, now we've really pushed the boundaries of theory-with-no-practical-use!

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)
Jul 23 '05 #34

P: n/a
On 25 Nov 2004 15:07:39 GMT, Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote:
Correction: Netherlands is not a Dutch word <g>
NL stands for Nederland, which is the Dutch word ;-)


AIUI, the country I carelessly know as "Holland" is correctly titled
"Netherlands / Nederlands" (Holland is just one part of it). It is
populated by Dutch people who speak the Dutch language. My apologies
if I've just done the equivalent of calling someone "A Scotch person,
who speaks Celtic"

So why is the language code lang="nl" rather than lang="du-nl", as is
used for lang="en-gb" ? There's no language of "Nederlandish" is
there ? German is "de" and Welsh is "cy" (from Cymru or Cymric)
which make sense, but this seems to be the only case where the country
name is used as a root, in opposition to the language name. MARC (the
precursor source of ISO 639) used the code DUT.
--
Smert' spamionam
Jul 23 '05 #35

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 12:28:43 +0000, Andy Dingley <di*****@codesmiths.com>
wrote:
So why is the language code lang="nl" rather than lang="du-nl", as is
used for lang="en-gb" ? There's no language of "Nederlandish" is
there ? German is "de" and Welsh is "cy" (from Cymru or Cymric)
which make sense, but this seems to be the only case where the country
name is used as a root, in opposition to the language name. MARC (the
precursor source of ISO 639) used the code DUT.


'nl' Is for 'Nederlands' which is how the Dutch name their own language.
'de' Is for ' Deutch' which is how the German name their language.

--
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Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #36

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 25 Nov 2004 15:07:39 GMT, Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote:
Correction: Netherlands is not a Dutch word <g>
NL stands for Nederland, which is the Dutch word ;-)
AIUI, the country I carelessly know as "Holland" is correctly titled
"Netherlands / Nederlands" (Holland is just one part of it).


No, Nederlands is the language. Nederland is the country.

(And Holland is in East Anglia ;-).
It is populated by Dutch people who speak the Dutch language.


As we say in English, yes.

The reasons lie way back in history; the English word (Dutch) is of
course related to "deutsch", which nowadays refers to German. And
when the Dutch say "Duitsland" they aren't referring to their own
country...

Well, you didn't ask why the language code for deutsch isn't e.g "ger"
for German.

It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium.
Jul 23 '05 #37

P: n/a
Els
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium.


<g>

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Jul 23 '05 #38

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Andy Dingley wrote:
AIUI, the country I carelessly know as "Holland" is correctly titled
"Netherlands / Nederlands" (Holland is just one part of it).


That's why the football fans scream "Hup Nederland!"

Jul 23 '05 #39

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:16:18 +0000, Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk>
wrote:
It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL

That could be the start of a joke if you were Dutch[1].

[1] Like the Scots and the British joke about each other (presumably) and
probably the east and west cost of the US jokes about each other (again:
presumably), the Dutch speaking Belgium people and the Dutch joke about
each other.

--
Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #40

P: n/a
On 26 Nov 2004 14:21:50 GMT, Els <el*********@tiscali.nl> wrote:
Alan J. Flavell wrote:
It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium.


<g>


My thought and feel exactly

--
Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #41

P: n/a
Barbara de Zoete wrote:
[1] Like the Scots and the British joke about each other (presumably)
and probably the east and west cost of the US jokes about each other
(again: presumably), the Dutch speaking Belgium people and the Dutch
joke about each other.


For the US, it's normally North (the "yankee city folk") vs South (the
"barefoot idiots"). Has been for a long long time.

Jul 23 '05 #42

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Barbara de Zoete wrote:
> It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL


Yeah, I thought you'd like it...
That could be the start of a joke if you were Dutch[1].
(Did you think no-one else knew that? ...)
[1] Like the Scots and the British joke about each other


For the south Germans it was the Ostfriesen. And probably vice versa.

tot ziens
Jul 23 '05 #43

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:43:42 +0000, Alan J. Flavell <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk>
wrote:
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Barbara de Zoete wrote:
> It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOL


Yeah, I thought you'd like it...
That could be the start of a joke if you were Dutch[1].


(Did you think no-one else knew that? ...)


<evil thought />
<time out />
<translation of the evil thought>I have to keep our US friends in mind.< />
tot ziens


Doeg :-D

--
Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #44

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:16:18 +0000, "Alan J. Flavell"
<fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
It's all rather confusing really. Then there's Belgium.


I leave the last word on _that_ to Douglas Adams.

(and Conrad)
Jul 23 '05 #45

P: n/a
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
tot ziens


Doeg :-D


Tease, he probably won't be able to translate Dutch slang, so he'll have
no idea what you just said to him.

Translation for Alan: she wants to see you naked,

;-)

--
Spartanicus
Jul 23 '05 #46

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:39:27 +0000, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net> wrote:
"Barbara de Zoete" <b_********@hotmail.com> wrote:
tot ziens


Doeg :-D


Tease, he probably won't be able to translate Dutch slang, so he'll have
no idea what you just said to him.

Translation for Alan: she wants to see you naked,

;-)


ROFL

--
Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
Jul 23 '05 #47

P: n/a
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Spartanicus wrote:
Translation for Alan: she wants to see you naked,


Oh! I thought she was making the offer...

SCNR.

No, I'll be honest: the slang was beyond me.
Jul 23 '05 #48

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