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Authoring to assure that a web page can be saved

P: n/a
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
..html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht files.

In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other than
by, say, saving as a PDF file.

What causes this to occur?
What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?
--
http://www.standards.com/; See Howard Kaikow's web site.
Jul 23 '05 #1
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32 Replies


P: n/a
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Howard Kaikow wrote:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht files.

In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other than
by, say, saving as a PDF file.

What causes this to occur?
MSIE. Using some browser instead exploder might be good idea.
What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?


Don't know.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Jul 23 '05 #2

P: n/a

"Lauri Raittila" <la***@raittila.cjb.net> schreef in bericht
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Howard Kaikow wrote:
In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other
than
by, say, saving as a PDF file.

What causes this to occur?
MSIE. Using some browser instead exploder might be good idea.


Because of what???
What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?
Don't know.


You sure you're first remark is correct?

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>


jakob
Jul 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Jakob wrote:

"Lauri Raittila" <la***@raittila.cjb.net> schreef in bericht
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Howard Kaikow wrote:
In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other
than
by, say, saving as a PDF file.

What causes this to occur?


MSIE. Using some browser instead exploder might be good idea.


Because of what???


They most likely are able to save those pages. They are also safe. And
they are better in just about any other aspect too.
What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?


Don't know.


You sure you're first remark is correct?


This question doesn't parse. I am not first remark. Do you mean if I'm
sure about it is IE that is faulty? No, I am not absolutely sure, but as
OP didn't give URL nor tell which browser he uses, that is very likely.
He also mentioned .mht files.

All other browsers save webpages whitout thinking what they do, MSIE
thinks, and so can think wrongly.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Jul 23 '05 #4

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"Lauri Raittila" <la***@raittila.cjb.net> schreef in bericht >> >
> MSIE. Using some browser instead exploder might be good idea.


Because of what???


They most likely are able to save those pages. They are also safe. And
they are better in just about any other aspect too.


I agree with your opinion on those other browsers. They are indeed better.

But your reaction still doesn't tell me why MSIE would not save those pages.
Please bear with me and explain....

jakob

Jul 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
news:cm**********@pyrite.mv.net:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved
as a .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as
.mht files.
".mht" means you are using MS Internet Explorer.
In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other
than by, say, saving as a PDF file.

What causes this to occur?
MSIE.
For example:
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q235589
What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?


It's not an authoring issue - it's a browser issue.
Get a proper browser, such as Firefox, and use it
when 'surfing'. Only use MSIE when absolutely necessary,
such as checking authored pages for IE-specific bugs,
Windows Update, or pages that you have to use and that
require ActiveX.

--
Dave Patton
Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project
http://www.confluence.org/
My website: http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
Jul 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
Dave Patton (sp**@trap.invalid) wrote:
: "Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
: news:cm**********@pyrite.mv.net:

: > I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved
: > as a .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as
: > .mht files.

: ".mht" means you are using MS Internet Explorer.

: > In some cases, I find that there is no way to save the web page other
: > than by, say, saving as a PDF file.
: >
: > What causes this to occur?

: MSIE.
: For example:
: http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q235589

: > What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?

: It's not an authoring issue - it's a browser issue.

How is it now an authoring issue? He makes a web page, and people
browsing his website with IE can't save the page using the default IE
browser save options.

Seems to me that most people authoring html pages make all sorts of
attempts to ensure compatability with most major browsers. Are you saying
that in this case he should tell his audience not to use IE?

The MS article mentioned above makes it sound like the issue arises with
html generated by excel, so perhaps he is generating html files that way.
To the original poster I would say perhaps if you run that html through a
converter of some sort the problem would be fixed. I have heard good
words about htmltidy (?) though have not used it myself for a long time.

Or perhaps open the html files with your favourite authoring tool and then
save them after some kind of minor fixup. That might rearrange the html
into something that works when viewed with IE. Who knows...

Jul 23 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht files.


For example? (URL?)

I've never seen this phenomenon.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #8

P: n/a
In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html Howard Kaikow said:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht files.


don't use IE and especially don't use it to save pages. it rewrites and
adds extra bits.
--
t h e o f l i t t l e v o i c e s
Jul 23 '05 #9

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"Malcolm Dew-Jones" <yf***@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
news:41******@news.victoria.tc.ca...
To the original poster I would say perhaps if you run that html through a
converter of some sort the problem would be fixed. I have heard good
words about htmltidy (?) though have not used it myself for a long time.


Nowhere did I say that the pages were mine.
The problem arises at web sites other than mine.
Jul 23 '05 #10

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begin quote from Malcolm Dew-Jones in <41******@news.victoria.tc.ca>:
Dave Patton (sp**@trap.invalid) wrote:
: "Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
: > What needs to be done when authoring to avoid such a problem?

: It's not an authoring issue - it's a browser issue.

How is it now an authoring issue? He makes a web page, and people
browsing his website with IE can't save the page using the default IE
browser save options.
There's your answer right there. The problem only happens with Internet
Explorer, not with well-written, standards compliant browsers.
Seems to me that most people authoring html pages make all sorts of
attempts to ensure compatability with most major browsers. Are you saying
that in this case he should tell his audience not to use IE?


There are many reasons not to use IE. This is only one of them.

--
Shawn K. Quinn
Jul 23 '05 #11

P: n/a
Howard Kaikow (ka****@standards.com) wrote:
: "Malcolm Dew-Jones" <yf***@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message
: news:41******@news.victoria.tc.ca...
: > To the original poster I would say perhaps if you run that html through a
: > converter of some sort the problem would be fixed. I have heard good
: > words about htmltidy (?) though have not used it myself for a long time.

: Nowhere did I say that the pages were mine.
: The problem arises at web sites other than mine.

Well in that case it isn't your authoring issue, and I would have to agree
with another post that says to use a different browser.

Jul 23 '05 #12

P: n/a
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:38:42 -0500, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as
a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht
files.


For example? (URL?)

I've never seen this phenomenon.


Indeed - without a test URL, there's no way to really anser the question
other than what has already been said.
Jul 23 '05 #13

P: n/a
"Neal" <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.individual.net...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:38:42 -0500, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as
a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht
files.


For example? (URL?)

I've never seen this phenomenon.


Indeed - without a test URL, there's no way to really anser the question
other than what has already been said.


http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html
Jul 23 '05 #14

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rf
Howard Kaikow wrote

[unable to save using IE]
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html


http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;235589

Something is triggering a quirk.

Solution: Use another browser.

--
Cheers
Richard.
Jul 23 '05 #15

P: n/a
"rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
news:96****************@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Howard Kaikow wrote

[unable to save using IE]
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html


http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;235589

Something is triggering a quirk.

Solution: Use another browser.

--
Cheers
Richard.


The proper solution is for whomsoever created the web page to verify that
the page works with IE, not to require that another browser be used.
Jul 23 '05 #16

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"Shawn K. Quinn" <sk*****@xevious.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message news:<eL********************@speakeasy.net>...
There's your answer right there. The problem only happens with Internet
Explorer, not with well-written, standards compliant browsers.


Also, according to the cited MS article, the problem only happens with
Web pages that were excreted from Excel, rather than on any created
with standards-compliant HTML either by hand or with a reasonable
authoring system.

It's rather humorous that MS can't always deal with the mess its own
products put out.

--
Dan
Jul 23 '05 #17

P: n/a
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
"Neal" <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.individual.net...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:38:42 -0500, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> "Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
>> I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
>> .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht
>> files.
>
> For example? (URL?)
>
> I've never seen this phenomenon.
>


Indeed - without a test URL, there's no way to really anser the question
other than what has already been said.


http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html


What about it? "Save As ... Web page complete" works just fine for
me.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #18

P: n/a
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

The proper solution is for whomsoever created the web page to verify that
the page works with IE, not to require that another browser be used.


That's as wrong as could be.

The proper solution is for IE to follow accepted Internet standards.
Granted, it's not gonna happen. But the solution is not to give up
on standards, it's to give up on the outlaw.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #19

P: n/a
In article <Xn*********************************@24.71.223.159 >,
sp**@trap.invalid says...
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
news:cm**********@pyrite.mv.net:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved
as a .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as
.mht files.


".mht" means you are using MS Internet Explorer.

<SNIP>

BTW, MHT is a recognized standard for...

MIME Encapsulation of Aggregate Documents, such as HTML (MHTML)
RFC 2557 (MHTML) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2557.txt
Jul 23 '05 #20

P: n/a
in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html, Mr.Clean wrote:
In article <Xn*********************************@24.71.223.159 >,
sp**@trap.invalid says...
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
news:cm**********@pyrite.mv.net:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved
as a .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as
.mht files.


".mht" means you are using MS Internet Explorer.

<SNIP>

BTW, MHT is a recognized standard for...

MIME Encapsulation of Aggregate Documents, such as HTML (MHTML)
RFC 2557 (MHTML) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2557.txt


Yes. I bet other software use .mhtml as extension (or maybe they have
copied mth form IE). If there even is other software supporting it.

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Jul 23 '05 #21

P: n/a
"Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
news:cm**********@pyrite.mv.net:
"Neal" <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.individual.net...
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:38:42 -0500, Stan Brown
<th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> "Howard Kaikow" <ka****@standards.com> wrote in
> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
>> I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be
>> saved as a
>> .html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht
>> files.
http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html


Perfect example of the problem:
- that page is valid, with valid CSS
- that page can be saved from Firefox with no problem
- that page fails on my PC using IE 6

The problem is with IE, not with that page, or the
author of that page. Read this thread:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?thre...a20%24a601280a
%40phx.gbl>

The solution may be to remove IE update Q867801(which I have
on my PC, which exhibits the problem), however that may
not work. The references to the problem being a page
created by Excel, or the page linking to stylesheets
on other domain, are not the issue - they just further
demonstrate how poor IE is.

The simple solution is to install another browser,
such as Firefox. I can save the above page, as
"Web Page, complete", in Firefox, and that saved
copy will open just fine in the same version of
IE that refuses to save the original page.

--
Dave Patton
Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project
http://www.confluence.org/
My website: http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/
Jul 23 '05 #22

P: n/a
brucie said the following on 10/31/04 23:11:
In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html Howard Kaikow said:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a
.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht files.


don't use IE and especially don't use it to save pages. it rewrites and
adds extra bits.


As does Firefox and probably other browsers. When saving it as "Web
Page, complete" it saves an html file and a directory. The links in the
original page are rewritten to point to that directory. In case of the
mentioned URL of:

http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html

... it saves an "htaccess.html" file and an "htaccess_files" directory. I
really would like to see Firefox supporting RFC 2557 (or does it?).

--
Regards
Harrie
Jul 23 '05 #23

P: n/a
Harrie wrote:
brucie said the following on 10/31/04 23:11:
don't use IE and especially don't use it to save pages. it rewrites and
adds extra bits.


As does Firefox and probably other browsers.


There is a big difference between what IE does vs mozilla browsers.
mozilla doesn't change any CSS at all, and only modifies image and link
URLs (and maybe whitespace) just so the pages will work locally.

IE completely rewrites the code (HTML *and* CSS), presumably so it will
be optimized for its own evil purposes. It often ends up looking nothing
like the original code.

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
Jul 23 '05 #24

P: n/a
"Harrie" <sp*****@linux.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:41*********************@news.xs4all.nl...
brucie said the following on 10/31/04 23:11:
In comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html Howard Kaikow said:
I often come upon web pages that do not allow themselves to be saved as a.html file (complete), but do allow themselves to be saved as .mht
files.
don't use IE and especially don't use it to save pages. it rewrites and
adds extra bits.


As does Firefox and probably other browsers. When saving it as "Web
Page, complete" it saves an html file and a directory. The links in the
original page are rewritten to point to that directory. In case of the
mentioned URL of:

http://httpd.apache.org/docs-2.1/howto/htaccess.html

.. it saves an "htaccess.html" file and an "htaccess_files" directory. I
really would like to see Firefox supporting RFC 2557 (or does it?).


Firefox offers choice of:

1, Saving complete
2. Saving HTML
3, Saving as text

No option for "mht" or "web page", at least not in the basic Firefox.
Jul 23 '05 #25

P: n/a
kchayka said the following on 11/27/04 18:03:
Harrie wrote:
brucie said the following on 10/31/04 23:11:
don't use IE and especially don't use it to save pages. it rewrites and
adds extra bits.
As does Firefox and probably other browsers.


There is a big difference between what IE does vs mozilla browsers.
mozilla doesn't change any CSS at all, and only modifies image and link
URLs (and maybe whitespace) just so the pages will work locally.


Agreed.
IE completely rewrites the code (HTML *and* CSS), presumably so it will
be optimized for its own evil purposes. It often ends up looking nothing
like the original code.


Does it do that? I wonder why I'm not really surprised, but I wasn't
aware of it.

--
Regards
Harrie
Jul 23 '05 #26

P: n/a
"kchayka" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
There is a big difference between what IE does vs mozilla browsers.
mozilla doesn't change any CSS at all, and only modifies image and link
URLs (and maybe whitespace) just so the pages will work locally.


Mozilla also changes the character set, or document encoding, or
something. (Sorry, I've read the explanations but I am still unsure
of the correct term.)

For instance, I used a Windows editor to create documents containing
e.g. the character sequence – . The server identifies the
document as UTF-8. Mozilla stores the actual Unicode sequence for an
en dash, rather than the – -- so when I open the document I
have gibberish codes for every character higher than 127. I'm sure if
I had a Unicode editor the sequences would appear correct, but the
point is that "Save As" does make that additional change from the
source document.

The same change is made in "View Source". Evidently when you save a
document Mozilla actually saves its internal representation.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #27

P: n/a
Howard Kaikow said the following on 11/27/04 18:49:
"Harrie" <sp*****@linux.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:41*********************@news.xs4all.nl...
I really would like to see Firefox supporting RFC 2557 (or does it?).


No option for "mht" or "web page", at least not in the basic Firefox.


It's a shame. I've used it a few times with MSIE and it's one of the few
features I like about it. And since I don't run Windows by default, I
would really like to have such a feature available on a Linux platform.

--
Regards
Harrie
Jul 23 '05 #28

P: n/a
Stan Brown wrote:

Mozilla stores the actual Unicode sequence for an
en dash, rather than the –
Why so it does, but only for save as "Web page complete" with a utf-8
encoding. Save as "HTML only" leaves the decimal references intact, at
least on my own pages that I've tested. If you change the page character
encoding (in the View menu) to iso-8859-1 before saving "complete", it
saves the decimal references. If you change it to Windows-1252 before
saving, it saves the actual characters rather than the references.
The same change is made in "View Source".


I don't see this. AFAIK, View Source has always shown the original code
and saves it that way, the same as "HTML only", but this could be a
version-specific issue. I'm using a recent mozilla nightly build, if it
matters.

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
Jul 23 '05 #29

P: n/a
"kchayka" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
Stan Brown wrote:

Mozilla stores the actual Unicode sequence for an
en dash, rather than the –


Why so it does, but only for save as "Web page complete" with a utf-8
encoding. Save as "HTML only" leaves the decimal references intact, at
least on my own pages that I've tested. If you change the page character
encoding (in the View menu) to iso-8859-1 before saving "complete", it
saves the decimal references.


Thanks for that workaround! I did know about "Save HTML only" versus
"Save Web Page Complete", but I didn't know about changing the
character encoding to get around it.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #30

P: n/a
"kchayka" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
(about Mozilla displaying actual Unicode characters where page author
wrote e.g. – )
The same change is made in "View Source".


I don't see this. AFAIK, View Source has always shown the original code
and saves it that way, the same as "HTML only", but this could be a
version-specific issue.


This seems to have been fixed in View Source but not in the right-
click View Selection Source.

Sample URL:
http://www.acad.sunytccc.edu/instruc...tat/symbol.htm
Look at the arrows in breadcrumb trail at the top.

(Note: The UTF-8 encoding comes from a META tag, which may muddy the
waters. The IIS server where that page is hosted won't let me do
anything with the HTTP headers.)

With View -> Character Encoding set to UTF-8, View Source shows the
arrows as → but View Selection Source shows them as arrows.

With View -> Character Encoding set to ISO-8859-1, it's the same:
View Source shows the arrows as → but View Selection Source
shows them as arrows.
I'm running 1.7.3 on Win 98; before that it was 1.7.1 (briefly) and
1.4, so I guess the View Source fix happened between 1.4 and 1.7. Odd
that View Source and Vie Selection Source should give different
results.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #31

P: n/a
on 2004-11-28, Stan Brown wrote:

This seems to have been fixed in View Source but not in the right-
click View Selection Source.


<URL:https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164906>
Jul 23 '05 #32

P: n/a
Tim
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 18:39:53 -0500,
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> posted:
Mozilla also changes the character set, or document encoding, or
something. (Sorry, I've read the explanations but I am still unsure
of the correct term.)


There's some sense in that: It's quite possible for webpages to be written
in some unsupported scheme to what your computer uses, so it's sensible to
translate them into the local scheme when saving.

Of course, it's actually got to use whatever scheme is native to your PC to
do that in a logical manner. UTF support is still somewhat hit and miss on
PCs. Though I suppose the intention is really to save the files as
something that the browser can use later on, not an editor.

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Jul 23 '05 #33

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