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Unicode: Combining diacritical "dot above" mark with the capital letter P

P: n/a
Hi all,

I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't. The following capital letters all work
correctly -

B C D F G M S T

with the diacritical marker &#_0775. Why am I having a problem with P?
The latter letter and those 8 listed above are all used in Gaelic.

I've presented the problem here -

http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html

Cheers,

Barry.
Jul 23 '05 #1
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7 Replies


P: n/a
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html


t's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #2

P: n/a
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html


t's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.


On my IE 6 (Win), I see the same situation as Barry: Ṗ gets
displayed incorrectly, other cases are OK. (Barry probably mistyped the
character references here to prevent newsreaders from interpreting.
But if someone's newsreader interprets strings as character references,
or as HTML markup in general, <blink><font color="red" size="7">the
newsreader needs to be fixed</font></blink>. Misrepresenting data is not
a solution. And a leading zero, though allowed, is rather pointless in
decimal character references.)

Specifically, I see Ṗ as capital P followed by a small box. The box
is IE's way of telling about a character it cannot render. I have no idea
why this happens, but we know IE's mechanism for dealing with combining
diacritic marks is defective. It can handle simple cases but fails often
miserably. However the usual failure is putting the diacritic at a wrong
vertical position, because IE does not pay attention to the height of the
base character - it probably just overprints the base character with a
glyph of the diacritic in a fixed position.

On the practical side, precomposed characters like Ṗ often work
better than decompositions like Ṗ, because
a) they work even on browsers that have no support to combining diacritic
marks but are able to use a rich enough font (e.g., several older
versions of IE)
b) when they work, they generally produce a better visual presentation,
since the glyph is designed by a typographer, instead of being
produced by a (simplistic) program that combines two glyphs.
On the other hand, it is possible that the font in use lacks a glyph for
the precomposed character but the browser would be able to handle the
decomposition using its general algorithms. At present, this is less
likely.

What you, Stan, have observed might be explainable as follows: you are
using a browser that can handle combining diacritics and also the
precomposed characters _but_ the glyphs for the latter are oddly designed
(consisting of a letter with the diacritic placed on the right of it).

If I tell IE to ignore fonts suggested on Web pages, then none of the
characters are correctly presented on most font choices. On Arial Unicode
MS, they are OK (technically - the glyphs are far too modern I'm afraid)
except Ṗ, which appears as mere P.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #3

P: n/a
On 24 Oct 2004, Barry wrote:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.


"it doesn't"?
You forgot to specify operating system, browser(s), and font(s).
Without this information, your statement is completely meaningless.

Read
- <http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist.html>
"Combining marks"
- <http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/unicode/>
"Combining marks"
And have a look at these test pages
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/combimarks.html>
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/combimarks-indic.html>
using *various* browsers and fonts.

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
On my IE 6 (Win), I see the same situation as Barry: Ṗ gets
displayed incorrectly, other cases are OK.


What's "Win"? The display of base letters with combining marks depends
on the version of your operating system and your fonts. Windows 2000
(and above) has OpenType fonts, which support the combination of
base letters with marks. Palatino Linotype has a lot more characters
than Times New Roman. Have a look at
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nht...ombimarks.html

See also
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...icot/other.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...ewot/other.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...icot/other.htm
"combining marks".

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #5

P: n/a
Thanks guys.
Specifically, I see Ṗ as capital P followed by a small box.

The box
is IE's way of telling about a character it cannot render. I have no
idea
why this happens, but we know IE's mechanism for dealing with
combining
diacritic marks is defective. It can handle simple cases but fails
often
miserably. However the usual failure is putting the diacritic at a
wrong
vertical position, because IE does not pay attention to the height of
the
base character - it probably just overprints the base character with a
glyph of the diacritic in a fixed position.

Yeah, that's exactly what I see too on IE 6.0.28

I was thinking that if you write P&#775, that IE would check some kind
of table and realise that this is infact &#7766 and fetch that glyph
only. Instead you suggest that IE would combine two glyphs - one with
a P and one with a dot. This would make much more sense, but should
there be a dot glyph in the eot file or does IE use its own - with one
vertical position for Caps and one for small letters? There is no
glyph for a dot in the eot file, nor is there anything mapped at
U+0307. Could this be the issue?

The funny thing is that I rewrote my javascript and perl lastweek
using diacritical marks only, so I'll have to undo all that again if
the issue lies with IE.
Jul 23 '05 #6

P: n/a
On 25 Oct 2004, Barry wrote:
I was thinking that if you write P&#775, that IE would check some kind
of table and realise that this is infact &#7766 and fetch that glyph
only.
That's how OpenType fonts are supposed to work in _every_ program,
not just Internet Explorer.
Instead you suggest that IE would combine two glyphs - one with
a P and one with a dot.
A fall-back mechanism.
This would make much more sense, but should
there be a dot glyph in the eot file
EOT? Why EOT?
or does IE use its own - with one
vertical position for Caps and one for small letters?


No. A combining mark is the same for capital and small base letter.

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #7

P: n/a
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fi> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
Stan Brown <th************@fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.com> wrote in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html
It's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.

What you, Stan, have observed might be explainable as follows: you are
using a browser that can handle combining diacritics and also the
precomposed characters _but_ the glyphs for the latter are oddly designed
(consisting of a letter with the diacritic placed on the right of it).


Could be. I should have mentioned it's Mozilla 1.7 on Win98, but I
forgot. :-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #8

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