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Little jpgs (eg. union jack) Where got?

I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?

Many thanks,
Adrian.
Jul 23 '05 #1
45 5961
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:37:49 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?


http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...2union+jack%22
Jul 23 '05 #2
Thank you,
Adrian.

"Neal" <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.individual.net...
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:37:49 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?


http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...2union+jack%22

Jul 23 '05 #3
"Adrian" <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.


I hope that you are not planning to use those to link to language
variants.

--
Spartanicus
Jul 23 '05 #4
I have spent quite a bit of time looking around but cannot find
a simple union jack logo - not a flag on a stick, just the plain logo
(freely downloadable) to use in order to draw attention to the
English text on my site.

Any more suggestions?
<any thanks.
"Neal" <ne*****@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:op**************@news.individual.net...
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:37:49 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?


http://www.google.com/search?q=free+...2union+jack%22

Jul 23 '05 #5
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:26:10 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I have spent quite a bit of time looking around but cannot find
a simple union jack logo - not a flag on a stick, just the plain logo
(freely downloadable) to use in order to draw attention to the
English text on my site.


From
http://www.econtentmag.com/Articles/...84&IssueID=124
:

"Even the icons on a site could be offensive. In her book, Web Word
Wizardry, international econtent consultant Rachel McAlpine points out
that you shouldn't use flags to indicate languages 'because this will
alienate many visitors. Which flag indicates English: the flag from the
USA, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore? Which
flag will you use for countries like Switzerland, which has four official
languages?' McAlpine points to the Statistics Belgium (statbel.fgov.be)
site as one that does it right. To read in Dutch, users click the word
Nederlands (the Dutch word for Dutch). To read in French, they click
Français; in German, Deutsch."

Basically, flag does not match up to language. It's a bad way to do the
job. Use language names in the particular language instead.
Jul 23 '05 #6
Neal ne*****@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:26:10 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I have spent quite a bit of time looking around but cannot find
a simple union jack logo - not a flag on a stick, just the plain logo
(freely downloadable) to use in order to draw attention to the
English text on my site.


From
http://www.econtentmag.com/Articles/...84&IssueID=124
:

"Even the icons on a site could be offensive. In her book, Web Word
Wizardry, international econtent consultant Rachel McAlpine points out
that you shouldn't use flags to indicate languages 'because this will
alienate many visitors. Which flag indicates English: the flag from the
USA, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or Singapore? Which
flag will you use for countries like Switzerland, which has four official
languages?' McAlpine points to the Statistics Belgium (statbel.fgov.be)
site as one that does it right. To read in Dutch, users click the word
Nederlands (the Dutch word for Dutch). To read in French, they click
Français; in German, Deutsch."

Basically, flag does not match up to language. It's a bad way to do the
job. Use language names in the particular language instead.


Aside from the fact that some major languages can't be represented by
flags (eg Arabic), some are liable to cause offence if a flag is used (eg
Chinese), and in many cases the obvious flag isn't one of the nations that
has the most speakers of the language (eg Portuguese). Flags represent a
nation not a language, so for many people the obvious conclusion is that
content marked by a flag is content relating to that nation.

Neal is spot on, use the language name in the relevant language.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #7
"Eric Jarvis" <we*@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
Neal ne*****@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:26:10 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:

<snipped>

Basically, flag does not match up to language. It's a bad way to do the
job. Use language names in the particular language instead.


Aside from the fact that some major languages can't be represented by
flags (eg Arabic), some are liable to cause offence if a flag is used (eg
Chinese), and in many cases the obvious flag isn't one of the nations that
has the most speakers of the language (eg Portuguese). Flags represent a
nation not a language, so for many people the obvious conclusion is that
content marked by a flag is content relating to that nation.

Neal is spot on, use the language name in the relevant language.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

****************************************
Thank you both. Point taken! I won't use flags.
Adrian.
Jul 23 '05 #8
Adrian 00@00.00 wrote:
"Eric Jarvis" <we*@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
Neal ne*****@yahoo.com wrote:
On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:26:10 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:

<snipped>

Basically, flag does not match up to language. It's a bad way to do the
job. Use language names in the particular language instead.


Aside from the fact that some major languages can't be represented by
flags (eg Arabic), some are liable to cause offence if a flag is used (eg
Chinese), and in many cases the obvious flag isn't one of the nations that
has the most speakers of the language (eg Portuguese). Flags represent a
nation not a language, so for many people the obvious conclusion is that
content marked by a flag is content relating to that nation.

Neal is spot on, use the language name in the relevant language.

Thank you both. Point taken! I won't use flags.


Good man!

The next stage is to learn content negotiation. I'm afraid that isn't my
department, however there are some experts around the ciwa* newsgroups.
I's guess that when you get to the stage of asking questions about that
they would need to go to ciwa.misc or ciwa.site-design.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #9
"Eric Jarvis" <we*@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
Adrian 00@00.00 wrote:
"Eric Jarvis" <we*@ericjarvis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MP************************@news.individual.ne t...
Neal ne*****@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:26:10 +0200, Adrian <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
>


<snipped>
>
> Basically, flag does not match up to language. It's a bad way to do the > job. Use language names in the particular language instead.
>

Aside from the fact that some major languages can't be represented by
flags (eg Arabic), some are liable to cause offence if a flag is used (eg Chinese), and in many cases the obvious flag isn't one of the nations that has the most speakers of the language (eg Portuguese). Flags represent a nation not a language, so for many people the obvious conclusion is that content marked by a flag is content relating to that nation.

Neal is spot on, use the language name in the relevant language.

Thank you both. Point taken! I won't use flags.


Good man!

The next stage is to learn content negotiation. I'm afraid that isn't my
department, however there are some experts around the ciwa* newsgroups.
I's guess that when you get to the stage of asking questions about that
they would need to go to ciwa.misc or ciwa.site-design.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"


What on earth is content negotiation. Re CIWA I only suffer from withdrawal
symptoms after z6 :)
Jul 23 '05 #10
Adrian wrote:
"Eric Jarvis" wrote

use the language name in the relevant language.
The next stage is to learn content negotiation.

What on earth is content negotiation.


If you have 2 renderings of the same content, you can set it up on the
server such that visitors with an appropriately configured browser get
the version they prefer without any further action. Language is one
example where negotiation can be useful. Let's say you create an article
in English, French, and German. You create a url, e.g.,

http://www.example.com/foo

which contains information about the 3 languages available. A user who
visits that url and has English set up as their preferred (or only)
language will get the English variant. If someone prefers French, they
get the French version. NB: you should have explicit links to each
variant, so in this example, you need 4 urls in all, e.g.,

http://www.example.com/foo
http://www.example.com/foo.de
http://www.example.com/foo.en
http://www.example.com/foo.fr

This is ot for ciwah. I suggest ciwa.site-design. I further suggest that
you read the archives of that group, and check out the resources on the
web, especially the Apache docs.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 23 '05 #11

"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:O4*********************@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snipped?

This is ot for ciwah. I suggest ciwa.site-design. I further suggest that
you read the archives of that group, and check out the resources on the
web, especially the Apache docs.

Thank you for the additional information. I was mislead by equating
CIWA to the institute for withdrawal assessment, so I thought the OP
was having a bit of fun. I found no ciwa newsgroups on my isp, but I
will look arounf further.

Many thanks,
Adrian.
Jul 23 '05 #12
Adrian wrote:
"Brian" <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:O4*********************@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<snipped?

This is ot for ciwah.


I found no ciwa newsgroups on my isp, but I will look arounf further.


pssst: "ciwa" stands for comp.infosystems.www.authoring

:)

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
Jul 23 '05 #13
JRS: In article <79***************************@freeler.nl>, dated Mon,
27 Sep 2004 10:37:49, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Adrian <aa@aa.aa> posted :
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?


TSGIFS19.GIF, at Garbo, or later number. Many flags & sizes. See sig.

It seems to include the Dutch flag.

You should not use the Jack to indicate the English language, since the
Jack belongs to the UK - it would annoy the Gaelic-speaking Scots, and
the Irish, and doubly annoy the Welsh-speaking Welsh because they've not
contributed to the Jack. It would also annoy the Americans, but why
not? - the language was made in England, after all, and you seem to post
from Europe.

I don't recall whether TSGIFS has the English flag; but a Jack could
easily be edited to the flag of St George.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt> RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zip> Timo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
Jul 23 '05 #14
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c$**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk>...
JRS: In article <79***************************@freeler.nl>, dated Mon,
27 Sep 2004 10:37:49, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Adrian <aa@aa.aa> posted :
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.

Does anyone know of such a source?


TSGIFS19.GIF, at Garbo, or later number. Many flags & sizes. See sig.

It seems to include the Dutch flag.

You should not use the Jack to indicate the English language, since the
Jack belongs to the UK - it would annoy the Gaelic-speaking Scots, and
the Irish, and doubly annoy the Welsh-speaking Welsh because they've not
contributed to the Jack. It would also annoy the Americans, but why
not? - the language was made in England, after all, and you seem to post
from Europe.


Its best not to use any flags to show language preferences, simply use
the name of the language in the language itself. That way no one gets
insulted with the implication that cetain languages are 'better' than
others in particular states, not to mention languages which cross
state boundaries e.g. English - though all speakers call it English.

Alan
Jul 23 '05 #15
"Spartanicus" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:oj********************************@news.spart anicus.utvinternet.ie...
"Adrian" <aa@aa.aa> wrote:
I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
particularly the union jack, but also others.


I hope that you are not planning to use those to link to language
variants.


I was going to, but I understand now that it is bad practice.

Adrian.
Jul 23 '05 #16
JRS: In article <2d**************************@posting.google.com >,
dated Tue, 28 Sep 2004 02:04:09, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.autho
ring.html, Alan Edgey <Al*******@aol.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c$CLzCB48GWBFw
uH@merlyn.demon.co.uk>...
JRS: In article <79***************************@freeler.nl>, dated Mon,
27 Sep 2004 10:37:49, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Adrian <aa@aa.aa> posted :
>I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
>particularly the union jack, but also others.
>
>Does anyone know of such a source?


TSGIFS19.GIF, at Garbo, or later number. Many flags & sizes. See sig.

It seems to include the Dutch flag.

You should not use the Jack to indicate the English language, since the
Jack belongs to the UK - it would annoy the Gaelic-speaking Scots, and
the Irish, and doubly annoy the Welsh-speaking Welsh because they've not
contributed to the Jack. It would also annoy the Americans, but why
not? - the language was made in England, after all, and you seem to post
from Europe.


Its best not to use any flags to show language preferences, simply use
the name of the language in the language itself. That way no one gets
insulted with the implication that cetain languages are 'better' than
others in particular states, not to mention languages which cross
state boundaries e.g. English - though all speakers call it English.


Superfluous; that response has already been given.

For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at least,
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of origin.
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used. That has
the advantage of allowing sites - non-technical in the main - which are
written in a linguistically American, Australian, etc., style to use the
corresponding flag.

Since Americans choose to retain the term "English" for their own
speech, they have no call to be embarrassed by seeing a corresponding
flag. The Flag of St George was not the flag of the Empire that they
left; and many of the British colonists were by no means English.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics & links;
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/clpb-faq.txt> RAH Prins : c.l.p.b mFAQ;
<URL:ftp://garbo.uwasa.fi/pc/link/tsfaqp.zip> Timo Salmi's Turbo Pascal FAQ.
Jul 23 '05 #17
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:32:43 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Superfluous; that response has already been given.

For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at least,
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of origin.
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used.
So all Brazilians will recognize the Portuguese flag?
That has
the advantage of allowing sites - non-technical in the main - which are
written in a linguistically American, Australian, etc., style to use the
corresponding flag.
But why use flags at all?? Language names are strongly connected to
languages. Flags are strongly connected to a country, which often has more
than one language. The Swiss flag means the Swiss language to only a
portion of Swiss.
Since Americans choose to retain the term "English" for their own
speech, they have no call to be embarrassed by seeing a corresponding
flag. The Flag of St George was not the flag of the Empire that they
left; and many of the British colonists were by no means English.


Oh screw you. I don't care what flag you use, I'm not visiting your site.
:P ;)

Jul 23 '05 #18
Dr John Stockton sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk wrote:
JRS: In article <2d**************************@posting.google.com >,
dated Tue, 28 Sep 2004 02:04:09, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.autho
ring.html, Alan Edgey <Al*******@aol.com> posted :
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<c$CLzCB48GWBFw
uH@merlyn.demon.co.uk>...
JRS: In article <79***************************@freeler.nl>, dated Mon,
27 Sep 2004 10:37:49, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Adrian <aa@aa.aa> posted :
>I am looking for a free web sourse with little images,
>particularly the union jack, but also others.
>
>Does anyone know of such a source?

TSGIFS19.GIF, at Garbo, or later number. Many flags & sizes. See sig.

It seems to include the Dutch flag.

You should not use the Jack to indicate the English language, since the
Jack belongs to the UK - it would annoy the Gaelic-speaking Scots, and
the Irish, and doubly annoy the Welsh-speaking Welsh because they've not
contributed to the Jack. It would also annoy the Americans, but why
not? - the language was made in England, after all, and you seem to post
from Europe.


Its best not to use any flags to show language preferences, simply use
the name of the language in the language itself. That way no one gets
insulted with the implication that cetain languages are 'better' than
others in particular states, not to mention languages which cross
state boundaries e.g. English - though all speakers call it English.


Superfluous; that response has already been given.

For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at least,
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of origin.
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used. That has
the advantage of allowing sites - non-technical in the main - which are
written in a linguistically American, Australian, etc., style to use the
corresponding flag.

Since Americans choose to retain the term "English" for their own
speech, they have no call to be embarrassed by seeing a corresponding
flag. The Flag of St George was not the flag of the Empire that they
left; and many of the British colonists were by no means English.


You can't use flags to both denote language and localisation. So perhaps
you can get away with it if you know that you will NEVER want to use more
than a small number of languages and will NEVER have content related to
specific locations. Otherwise you are boxing yourself into a corner. Since
there is absolutely no reason that using flags is better than using the
language name in the relevant language there is never any reason to use
flags. The fact that one can concoct a rationalisation why it isn't
disastrous to do it in a very limited range of circumstances doesn't make
it a good idea.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
we don't need to make things idiot-proof,
we need to make idiots thing-proof
Jul 23 '05 #19
"kchayka" <us****@c-net.us> wrote in message
news:2r*************@uni-berlin.de...
<snipped>
pssst: "ciwa" stands for comp.infosystems.www.authoring :)


Auch.


Jul 23 '05 #20

"Dr John Stockton" <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c$**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/&c., FAQqy topics &

links;

I like your colors Dr John.
Jul 23 '05 #21
Dr John Stockton wrote:

[attribute novel snipped]
For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at
least, the name of the language is also the adjective of the country
of origin. So the flag of the country of origin can logically be
used.


Really? So a Swiss government site should use French, Italian, and
German flags to represent different variants of a press release? And you
call that logical?

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 23 '05 #22
Dr John Stockton <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at
least, the name of the language is also the adjective of the country
of origin. So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used.
A) Blind or color-blind users cannot reliably distinguish between
flag icons. This alone is a good reason not to use them.

B) For most international businesses, Traditional Chinese (zh_TW)
and Simplified Chinese (zh_CN) are "major languages of concern"
besides the European ones. You /really/ shouldn't use PRC or ROC
flags to denote them, for obvious political reasons.
Since Americans choose to retain the term "English" for their own
speech, they have no call to be embarrassed by seeing a corresponding
flag.
C) The vast majority of English and Spanish speakers live outside
England and Spain; although they can likely recognize the text
strings "English" or "Espan~ol", they well may /not/ be able to
recognize a 32x16 gif of a foreign flag.

--;K

Jul 23 '05 #23
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at least,
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of origin.
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used.


Which flag do you suggest for <http://www.gov.ie/Default.asp?UserLang=2>*?

--
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nht...quareroot.html

Jul 23 '05 #24
JRS: In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, dated Wed, 29
Sep 2004 01:09:57, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Neal <ne*****@yahoo.com> posted :
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:32:43 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Superfluous; that response has already been given.

For the major languages of concern - those of European origin, at least,
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of origin.
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used.
So all Brazilians will recognize the Portuguese flag?


No; some are too young or too senile, and some are blind. For the
benefit of the latter, there will need to be an alternative indication,
in text. Literate Brazilians will know, or soon learn, those flags
which are important to them (for example: I believe that, if a site has
no Portuguese version, they'd generally be willing to try Spanish).

That has
the advantage of allowing sites - non-technical in the main - which are
written in a linguistically American, Australian, etc., style to use the
corresponding flag.


But why use flags at all?? Language names are strongly connected to
languages.


One strong reason is that a row of flags is instantly recognised as a
row of flags. For sites other than the intrinsically multinational (UN,
EU, etc.) in which the flags make a political statement, and
vexillological sites, a flag, especially in a row, is normally a
language selector; it is a well-known convention. A row of language
names has to be read to be recognised as such.

Flags are strongly connected to a country, which often has more
than one language. The Swiss flag means the Swiss language to only a
portion of Swiss.
There is no Swiss language. The only language which is not used more
widely outside Switzerland than inside is very much a minority language.
Their languages would be represented by French, German, or Italian
national flags, and by whatever banner, perhaps cantonal, is appropriate
for Romansch.

Oh screw you. I don't care what flag you use, I'm not visiting your site.


It worked!

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 IE 4 ©
<URL:http://www.jibbering.com/faq/> JL/RC: FAQ of news:comp.lang.javascript
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
Jul 23 '05 #25

"Dr John Stockton" <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:$Q**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
No; some are too young or too senile, and some are blind. For the
benefit of the latter, there will need to be an alternative indication,
in text. Literate Brazilians will know, or soon learn, those flags
which are important to them (for example: I believe that, if a site has
no Portuguese version, they'd generally be willing to try Spanish).
Don't you see something wrong with expecting people to learn how to read
your cute flags, rather than communicating with them in the first place
using what they already understand?
One strong reason is that a row of flags is instantly recognised as a
row of flags.
Which is associated with a list of countries, not languages.
For sites other than the intrinsically multinational (UN,
EU, etc.) in which the flags make a political statement, and
vexillological sites, a flag, especially in a row, is normally a
language selector; it is a well-known convention.
If a convention is bad the first time it's used, it's still bad the
millionth time it's used.
A row of language
names has to be read to be recognised as such.


Your distinction between "instantly recognized" and "read to be recognized"
is fiction.

How about little bitty automobile bitmaps? An Aston-Martin can be used for
English, a Citroen for French, a BMW for German, ....

Jul 23 '05 #26
"Dr John Stockton" <sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:$Q**************@merlyn.demon.co.uk...
JRS: In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, dated Wed, 29
Sep 2004 01:09:57, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Flags are strongly connected to a country, which often has more
than one language. The Swiss flag means the Swiss language to only a
portion of Swiss.


There is no Swiss language. The only language which is not used more
widely outside Switzerland than inside is very much a minority language.
Their languages would be represented by French, German, or Italian
national flags, and by whatever banner, perhaps cantonal, is appropriate
for Romansch.


You see unable to understand that (a) many countries are multilingual, and
(b) many languages are multinational. Using flags for language may,
therefore, sow confusion: do you really want to confuse your visitors?
Using flags for language may even engender anger: do you really want to
anger your visitors?

Examples of multilingual countries include: Afghanistan > 34, Albania 2,
Algeria 3, American Samoa 2, Andorra 4, Angola > 3, Argentina 5, Armenia >
2, Aruba 4, Austria 4, Azerbaijan > 3 .... and that's just the A's!!!

Examples of multinational languages include Arabic, Chinese, English,
French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Inuit, Italian, Pashtu, Portuguese,
Punjabi, Russian, Spanish, Turkish, Urdu ... just from the top of my head!!!
And some languages come in variants for which separate treatment is
advisable.

Jul 23 '05 #27
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:01:28 -0400, C A Upsdell
<cupsdell0311XXX@-@-@XXXrogers.com> wrote:
You see unable to understand that (a) many countries are multilingual,
and
(b) many languages are multinational. Using flags for language may,
therefore, sow confusion: do you really want to confuse your visitors?
Using flags for language may even engender anger: do you really want to
anger your visitors?


The long and the short of it:

Language and flag do not correspond.

People who use flags for language are dumb and get NO CANDY.
Jul 23 '05 #28
Mad Bad Rabbit wrote:
C) The vast majority of English and Spanish speakers live outside
England and Spain;


Ditto Portugese. And only about 50% of French speakers live in France.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Jul 23 '05 #29
Dr John Stockton wrote:
Literate Brazilians will know, or soon learn, those flags which are
important to them
What are you on about? Literate Brazilians can read, so the best link is
not a flag of Portugal, but a text link: "português".
(for example: I believe that, if a site has no Portuguese version,
they'd generally be willing to try Spanish).
? That is just bizarre. Granting that they are both romance languages,
they are still quite different. I read French. That doesn't mean that I
will choose an Italian document if English and French are not available.
One strong reason is that a row of flags is instantly recognised as a
row of flags.
Sure. But a row of flags is not necessarily recognized as a language
menu. And if it is, a particular country's flag may not be associated
with a language.
A row of language names has to be read to be recognised as such.


Anyone who speaks Portuguese will recognize "português" without any
trouble. Anyone who speaks French will have no problems recognizing "en
français".

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 23 '05 #30
Dr John Stockton sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk wrote:

One strong reason is that a row of flags is instantly recognised as a
row of flags. For sites other than the intrinsically multinational (UN,
EU, etc.) in which the flags make a political statement, and
vexillological sites, a flag, especially in a row, is normally a
language selector; it is a well-known convention. A row of language
names has to be read to be recognised as such.


Now and again you've managed to post some extremely dumb rationalisations
of a prejudice, I can understand how that sort of thought process can
happen, but how in hell could you actually write that paragraph and not
see that it's almost entirely composed of false premises and illogical
conclusions?

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #31
Toby Inkster us**********@tobyinkster.co.uk wrote:
Mad Bad Rabbit wrote:
C) The vast majority of English and Spanish speakers live outside
England and Spain;


Ditto Portugese. And only about 50% of French speakers live in France.


Even if you specify speakers of the language who have Internet access then
it's true of Spanish and Portuguese, though not yet true of French, and no
longer true of Chinese (as a whole, without getting into the realm of
Traditional versus simplified).

In terms of economic activity over the Internet it's already the case that
Arabic has to be one of the priority languages. I'd be fascinated to know
how the flag proponents think they can represent Arabic with a flag.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #32
Brian us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid wrote:
Dr John Stockton wrote:
Literate Brazilians will know, or soon learn, those flags which are
important to them


What are you on about? Literate Brazilians can read, so the best link is
not a flag of Portugal, but a text link: "português".
(for example: I believe that, if a site has no Portuguese version,
they'd generally be willing to try Spanish).


? That is just bizarre. Granting that they are both romance languages,
they are still quite different. I read French. That doesn't mean that I
will choose an Italian document if English and French are not available.


Anyway it isn't solely about being understood, after all it's possible to
get the gist of a site using an online automatic translation service. It's
also about showing the visitor and their language some respect.
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #33
JRS: In article <OP*********************@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att
..net>, dated Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:15:58, seen in news:comp.infosystems.ww
w.authoring.html, Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:

[attribute novel snipped]


Please read current usefor drafts on the subject of attributes. Links
via sig line 3.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME ©
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 23 '05 #34
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
For the major languages of concern
"Of concern" to whom, exactly? Each reader will have their own
preconceptions and prejudices. For the purposes of this group, you
and I are only authors - our job is to convey our substantive content
to the readers, while accommodating as best we can to whatever
unrelated problems or prejudices they might have.
- those of European origin, at least,
Well, since most of them can be traced back to proto *Indo* European,
would that be Hungarian and Finnish (oh no, I read somewhere that
they're related to some Siberian language), or maybe Basque?
Etruscan?
the name of the language is also the adjective of the country of
origin.
Except that most of the inhabitants of Wales don't speak Welsh, most
of the inhabitants of Scotland don't speak Gaelic, few of the
inhabitants of Switzerland speak Rumansch, one of the official
languages of Belgium is German, and so on. And most of the speakers
of Spanish and Portuguese have no modern relationship whatever to the
respective countries.

You really don't get it, do you?
So the flag of the country of origin can logically be used.
You really don't get it, do you?
That has the advantage of allowing sites - non-technical in the main
- which are written in a linguistically American, Australian, etc.,
Hang on, you said your presentation was aimed at languages "of
European origin"...
style to use the corresponding flag.


Surely the NZ flag denotes the Maori language?

But I'm not sure which flag you're going to use for Hawai'ian

Which language does the Indian flag designate?

If you haven't noticed that you've tied yourself up in hopeless knots,
then I suppose there's nothing more to be done.

Flags, with few exceptions (Esperanto?), denote countries or nations.
They don't denote language. No matter how many usenet followups you
post assuring us that "the flag of the country of origin can logically
be used", it doesn't change the underlying facts of the situation.

--

"In matters of the French language, *never* tangle with a French
Canadian" - wise comment from a French colleague.
Jul 23 '05 #35
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:58:47 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <OP*********************@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att
.net>, dated Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:15:58, seen in news:comp.infosystems.ww
w.authoring.html, Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:

[attribute novel snipped]


Please read current usefor drafts on the subject of attributes. Links
via sig line 3.

There's nothing there about attribution. What are you on about?

And yes, I want to your site. A pity. There were no US flags, so I wasn't
sure I was on the right page. :D
Jul 23 '05 #36
Eric Jarvis wrote:
after all it's possible to get the gist of a site using an online
automatic translation service.


Eh, I gotta disagree. Have you ever tried one of them? The translations
they provide are good for a few laughs, not much more. I only use those
translation services for individual words (e.g., if I've forgotten the
French word for "bus"), or for very simple phrases. Otherwise, I'm
better off with my dictionaries.

--
Brian (remove "invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
Jul 23 '05 #37
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pi*******************************@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk...
<snipped>

Things that can be attributed to specifically one country,
like exchange rates, stock exchange data, etc., are
well depicted by flags, whereas a flag to depict a
language, partcularly a global language, is confusing.
Surely this is all there is to be said?
Jul 23 '05 #38
Brian us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid wrote:
Eric Jarvis wrote:
after all it's possible to get the gist of a site using an online
automatic translation service.
Eh, I gotta disagree. Have you ever tried one of them?


Now and again. Let's just say I've currently got 3 bookmarked and
somewhere I've got URLs for several more along with a load of dictionary
sites. Sometimes there are entire days go by when I don't use one for
something.
The translations
they provide are good for a few laughs, not much more. I only use those
translation services for individual words (e.g., if I've forgotten the
French word for "bus"), or for very simple phrases. Otherwise, I'm
better off with my dictionaries.


Generally you'll need a dictionary too if you want to get any detail, but
there are also tons of online dictionary sites. It's mostly a question of
getting used to what software can and can't translate easily, then you can
guess the stranger stuff by context.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #39
Adrian 00@00.00 wrote:
"Alan J. Flavell" <fl*****@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pi*******************************@ppepc56.ph. gla.ac.uk...
<snipped>

Things that can be attributed to specifically one country,
like exchange rates, stock exchange data, etc., are
well depicted by flags, whereas a flag to depict a
language, partcularly a global language, is confusing.
Surely this is all there is to be said?


In my view yes. However a lot of people who only deal with informational
sites may well not actually have to deal with localisation in any terms
other than language. People also have a tendency to assume that if what
they use now works for what they do currently then it's always going to be
fine. So there are probably quite a few people using flags to represent
languages who are utterly convinced it will always work for everyone
because it works for a choice of three European languages on their ten
page brochure site. Some will read that there are other possibilities and
understand the issues involved, some will br too self centred to
understand that anything outside their own direct experience is real and
they won't be possible to convince. At least until they discover that 10%
of their potential audience would prefer to be able to read the site in
Simplified Chinese. Then it will, of course, be all the fault of the
Chinese that they can't unite behind a single flag.

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
Jul 23 '05 #40
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Dr John Stockton wrote:
[ ... ]
It worked!


You are still unable to answer the simple question
which flags to use for the two languages of http://www.gov.ie/ .
Or are you?

--
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nht...quareroot.html

Jul 23 '05 #41
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
Which language does the Indian flag designate?


en-IN
I'm sure you can hear this along with en-PK in Glasgow. :-)

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #42
JRS: In article <op**************@news.individual.net>, dated Thu, 30
Sep 2004 02:14:00, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html,
Neal <ne*****@yahoo.com> posted :
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:58:47 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
JRS: In article <OP*********************@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att
.net>, dated Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:15:58, seen in news:comp.infosystems.ww
w.authoring.html, Brian <us*****@julietremblay.com.invalid> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:

[attribute novel snipped]
Please read current usefor drafts on the subject of attributes. Links
via sig line 3.

There's nothing there about attribution. What are you on about?


Which part of "Links via sig line 3" eluded your intellect (and not,
AFAICS, Brian's)? I did not write "Link in sig line 3".

There's nothing about attributions on the page that is indicated by sig
line 3, of course; it is links that you should have been expecting to
find. At the foot of the "Composition" section, you should have seen
the only instance of "usefor" on that page - indeed, it is capitalised -
in a paragraph
See Timo Salmi's Usenet Q&A. See also other links in this
section. Current USEFOR thinking is visible in work-in-progress
useage-00 (*) and article-13 (*).
where the last line (as rendered here) contains four links, two of which
you can use.

Still, in your search you may have learned something else.

You could also look at
<URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm#Neq>.
And yes, I want to your site. A pity. There were no US flags, so I wasn't
sure I was on the right page. :D


The site is not intended for the more simple-minded.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v4.00 MIME ©
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.
Jul 23 '05 #43
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:15:28 +0100, Dr John Stockton
<sp**@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The site is not intended for the more simple-minded.


Ow, you got me.

Jul 23 '05 #44
Dr John Stockton wrote:
I believe that, if a site has no Portuguese version, they'd generally
be willing to try Spanish.


Spanish? That's as much a language as "Chinese" or "Indian".

There are several languages that might be described as "Spanish",
including Castillian, Catalan, Gallego, Bable and Basque (though Bable is
about as widespread in Spain as Cornish is in England). These are all
romance languages, derived directly from Latin, except Basque which
doesn't appear to be even remotely related to any other modern languages.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Jul 23 '05 #45
JRS: In article <pa****************************@tobyinkster.co.uk> ,
dated Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:30:00, seen in news:comp.infosystems.www.autho
ring.html, Toby Inkster <us**********@tobyinkster.co.uk> posted :
Dr John Stockton wrote:
I believe that, if a site has no Portuguese version, they'd generally
be willing to try Spanish.

Confirmed for me, in essence, by [Lord] Melvyn Bragg, an author.
Spanish? That's as much a language as "Chinese" or "Indian".

There are several languages that might be described as "Spanish",
including Castillian, Catalan, Gallego, Bable and Basque (though Bable is
about as widespread in Spain as Cornish is in England). These are all
romance languages, derived directly from Latin, except Basque which
doesn't appear to be even remotely related to any other modern languages.


You should have no trouble finding a dictionary calling itself a Spanish
or Spanish-English dictionary in a reasonable library or bookshop; that
is the language to which I refer. Dictionaries describing themselves as
those others are harder to find in England.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk DOS 3.3, 6.20; Win98. ©
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links.
PAS EXE TXT ZIP via <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/programs/00index.htm>
My DOS <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/batfiles.htm> - also batprogs.htm.
Jul 23 '05 #46

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