PB design Standards is up!

[ldufrane]

Hi All,

I just started a project, which features various great websites that
use CSS/web standards, this projects also highlights what techniques
they use to create the wow effects, in certain articles, css demos are
also included.

This project is at http://www.pixiebits.com

Also, articles and resource submissions are requested by anyone who
would like to contribute.

thanks,
Lou
lo*@pixiebits.com
http://www.pixiebits.com

[kchayka]

ld******@gmail.com wrote:

features various great websites that use CSS/web standards,

This project is at http://www.pixiebits.com

Why is it that just about every site that is considered "great design"
has unreadable text?

Don't designer types know that gray text on a gray background isn't very
readable for normal people? Need I mention the microscopic font sizes
make it even worse?

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[ldufrane]

lol.. point well taken.

"Microscopic font size"
Fortunatly you can increase/decrease font size through your browser if
the site uses relative font sizes as opposed to fixed sizes..
This way the designer sets the "font-size norm" for that design, but
you still have the choice to change the size if it's too small.
Making it any bigger then 12px as a normal size looks too bulky to most
people, and sometimes even kills the balance in the design of the site.

"gray text on gray background"
As long as there is a contrast, light gray background with dark gray
text, usually it's not a problem. The reason this combination is
popular is because it adds an amount of subtlety.
However if more people tend to have a problem with this, us designers
will eventually catch on, and find a better way to keep that effect
without losing too much contrast between background and text.

Web standards is changing the way web professionals are designing
websites, I am not sure if they address this particular issue at all,
but I will find out.
You bring up a very valid point, un-readable content is just as
un-accessible as not adding proper tags.

Thanks for your feedback, I hope these answers have been helpfull.

Ldufrane
http://www.pixiebits.com

kchayka wrote:

ld******@gmail.com wrote:

features various great websites that use CSS/web standards,

This project is at http://www.pixiebits.com
Why is it that just about every site that is considered "great

design" has unreadable text?

Don't designer types know that gray text on a gray background isn't very readable for normal people? Need I mention the microscopic font sizes
make it even worse?

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[Stan Brown]

"" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets:

"Microscopic font size"
Fortunatly you can increase/decrease font size through your browser if
the site uses relative font sizes as opposed to fixed sizes..
But if you didn't monkey with the font size in the first place,
such adjustments would not be necessary. You have tailored a coat
with one arm shorter than the other, and told the buyer to hunch
over and hold one arm close to his body so that it will fit.
Making it any bigger then 12px as a normal size looks too bulky to most
people, and sometimes even kills the balance in the design of the site.
You should not be setting text sizes in pixels. Not ever. If you're
trying to show good design, that is a serious non-starter.
"gray text on gray background"
As long as there is a contrast, light gray background with dark gray
text, usually it's not a problem.
Translation: It looks pretty to you; too bad that people can't read
it.
However if more people tend to have a problem with this, us designers
will eventually catch on,
What a silly statement! You asked for feedback, and you reject it
when you get it. You don't show any sign of being swayed by mere
users.
Thanks for your feedback, I hope these answers have been helpfull.

Apparently the feedback was not helpful to _you_. Too bad.

(To top it off, you posted upside down, and you apparently don't
know how to set your name in your newsreader.)

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/

[kchayka]

ld******@gmail.com wrote:

lol.. point well taken.
Hmmm... based on your responses, I think my points weren't taken at all. :(

BTW, I wasn't just commenting on the PB site, but the "featured" sites
as well. Most suffer from the same problems, some are worse than others.
"Microscopic font size"
This way the designer sets the "font-size norm" for that design, but
you still have the choice to change the size if it's too small.
Making it any bigger then 12px as a normal size looks too bulky to most
people, and sometimes even kills the balance in the design of the site.
Why not get your head out of the print media mindset and into the web
media mindset? If a design is so fragile that it can't adapt gracefully
to different browsing environments, or if the visitor has to work to
make the site usable, then I'm afraid it is not such great web design.
"gray text on gray background"
The reason this combination is
popular is because it adds an amount of subtlety.
So being able to read the content isn't a requirement, it just has to
look pretty?
However if more people tend to have a problem with this, us designers
will eventually catch on,
It has been my experience that, in general, graphic designer types doing
web design have little regard for usability or accessiblity issues.
Their only real consideration is that it looks good in their particular
browsing environment. It would be a very pleasant surprise indeed if you
could show this is not the case after all. Then your site would be a
true asset.
Thanks for your feedback, I hope these answers have been helpfull.

No, they weren't. It just sounds like you are rationalizing degraded
usability for the sake of maintaining a pretty layout - typical form
over function. Perhaps you will take user feedback more to heart and
consider further the differences between web and print media.

FWIW, if a designer lets a skilled coder implement that design, there is
probably a better chance it will be more usable for more people. IMNSHO.

And in the future, pleast don't top-post.
<URL:http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post>

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

[Darin McGrew]

ld******@gmail.com wrote:

"Microscopic font size"
Fortunatly you can increase/decrease font size through your browser if
the site uses relative font sizes as opposed to fixed sizes..
And if you left the font size alone, then I could read your content without
mucking with my browser settings.

FWIW, if a site's presentation is broken and I need to fix something to
read its content, then my response isn't to fix the part of the
presentation that is broken. My response is to switch to user mode, which
essentially throws out all of the site's presentation.
Making it any bigger then 12px as a normal size looks too bulky to most
people, and sometimes even kills the balance in the design of the site.

It sounds like a broken design to me. What about browsers that are
configured to enforce a minimum font size that is larger than that?
--
Darin McGrew, mc****@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, da***@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Each snowflake in an avalanche pleads not guilty." - Stanislaw J. Lee

[Tim]

On 18 Apr 2005 21:46:21 -0700,
ld******@gmail.com posted:

"Microscopic font size"
Fortunatly you can increase/decrease font size through your browser if
the site uses relative font sizes as opposed to fixed sizes..
This way the designer sets the "font-size norm" for that design, but
you still have the choice to change the size if it's too small.
The designer should work around the default size that browsers use. It's
default for good reason, and you need to make your site work in browsers
where the user has overriden your sizes. Too many pixel perfect attempts
break horribly when some aspect of their control is broken.
Making it any bigger then 12px as a normal size looks too bulky to most
people, and sometimes even kills the balance in the design of the site.
px is not a relative font size, it's a fixed one, and a damn small one.
On some of my systems 16 is the smallest readable text. 12px text is
completely unreadable, and unresizeable on MSIE.

Likewise with pt, though theoretically it'd be better than using px.
Pixels generally gets treated as pixels (do you realise how small 12 pixels
are on a modern screen?), even though that's not supposed to be the case.
Points, however, seem a bit more likely to be treated properly (as
something proportional/related to what they're displayed on and an
expectation of a standard size).
"gray text on gray background"
As long as there is a contrast, light gray background with dark gray
text, usually it's not a problem.
Medium contrast can be easy on the eyes, but low constrast is hard to read.
My tests show that a slight sway away from black on white is useful, but
anything more than a slight variation isn't helpful.

e.g. color: #111 background-color: #eee

You'll notice that's not much differnet from black on white. Putting
something only slightly brighter, like #333, onto #fff is not nice to read
on many systems that I've looked at.
The reason this combination is popular is because it adds an amount of
subtlety.
No, it's just the latest fad. Designers spout the latest fad like trendy
brainless kids fall in love with mobile phone ringtones...
However if more people tend to have a problem with this, us designers
will eventually catch on,

I seriously doubt that. Designers will keep pushing the same silly ideas
until the cows come home, in the hope that people will start believing
them.

--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

[aqualizard]

Hey Lou,
thanks for sharing.

There are some cool designs on these sites, and having resources like
this is valuable to web authors.

Also, I admire your bravery posting real examples of work on the
use-net. It is often like walking into a Lion's Den with red meat in
your hands...

aqualizard @ gmail.com

[ldufrane]

Thanks for your kind words aqualizard, yes, it's a tough crowd over
here.. :)

kchayka:
I think I got your point perfectly, as I said before, " You bring up a
very valid point, un-readable content is just as un-accessible as not
adding proper tags. ".

I merely added my point of view of why those certain styles are popular
these days, isn't that what you infact asked?
"Why is it that just about every site that is considered "great design"
has unreadable text"

Stan and Tim, I never said using pixels was relative, it is fixed, I
said, you can easily change font size through the browser, if relative
font sizes are used.

"Medium contrast can be easy on the eyes, but low constrast is hard to
read.
My tests show that a slight sway away from black on white is useful,
but
anything more than a slight variation isn't helpful.
e.g. color: #111 background-color: #eee
You'll notice that's not much differnet from black on white. Putting
something only slightly brighter, like #333, onto #fff is not nice to
read
on many systems that I've looked at. "

I completely agree with this, naturally #ccc on #fff is not much of a
contrast, however, let's say #333 on #ccc background creates a very
good contrast, yet they are both a gray color.

Stan, I do appreciate everyone's feedback, it helps me a great deal,
however, it doesn't mean I agree with all of it. kchayka made a great
point, and I responded, now I have a question...

Why are most of you so angry...we are talking about font size and
background color, not a nuclear war...

I'm sorry I couldn't respond to each post,

[Stan Brown]

"" wrote in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets:

I'm sorry I couldn't respond to each post,

Given the nature of the responses, it's probably just as well.

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/