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Help putting standard headers on all pages

I've been looking for references for some weeks now, but haven't found
an answer to the following question. I'd love some help on this:

*Without* using JavaScript or other active client-side scripting,
server-side includes or frames, is there a way to include a standard
header on all pages within a site? The design goal is to have the
header links and title graphic on every page kept in some single
place, so that a change to the header data doesn't require changing
every single html file on the site. (The sites in question are my
personal sites - see signature).

In other words, I want a way to do this in regular (non-framed) non-
active HTML and CSS only. It seems like there ought to be a way to do
it with CSS, but I really can't work it out.

Thanks for any pointers...

--
Lewin A.R.W. Edwards
Projects - http://www.zws.com/
Personal - http://www.larwe.com/

Sep 21 '08
68 4775
On 22 Sep, 18:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
In article
<2f718cb7-242d-43d2-a7ef-b2bbe7b7a...@2g 2000hsn.googleg roups.com>,

zwsdot...@gmail .com wrote:
On Sep 21, 10:19 pm, Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.co m/wrote:
The Game of Why Don't You / Yes But
I'm well aware of it, having been on both sides of the net (?
goalposts? ring? home plate?).
I asked for a solution that's as low-tech as possible because hi tech
breaks.
Not as bad as iframes. But then, all "hi tech" seems to break at your
end.
I don't /like/ most of the solutions that have been posited so
far, but I'm trying out two of them to determine how disruptive
they'll be. As for my pet answer, well, I don't like it very much
either. All conceivable solutions will break under certain
circumstances; I've got to make a judgement as to which will be least
disruptive to me.
I wonder what your conclusion would be.
See the note at the foot of:http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present...ml#edef-IFRAME

which links tohttp://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents

I don't know if this does what you want, or how well different
browsers will handle it, but it does appear to be an alternative
to iframe, scripting, or server-side includes.
They renders more or less the same.
(I'd be interested to know if anyone has actually tried this
for, for example, a navigation menu. I will try it when I have
time, but that won't be for a while :( )
If you have an formula like those on Stan Browns page,
http://www.tc3.edu/instruct/sbrown/ti83/skurt.htm

, you could use xhtml and present it with MathML:

<object data="math.xhtm l" type="applicati on/xhtml+xml" style="height:
5em; width: 100%; overflow: auto"
<img src="math.gif" alt="..." longdesc="descr iption.html">
</object>

You could do the same with figures in SVG.

No browsers seems to support intrinsic dimensions (anymore) for
embedded html/xhtml documents.

You can take a look some testcases at:
http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-tag/en/
Sep 23 '08 #61
In article
<d1************ *************** *******@c58g200 0hsc.googlegrou ps.com>,
"Roy A." <ro*********@gm ail.comwrote:
On 22 Sep, 18:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
[snip]
See the note at the foot
of:http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present...ml#edef-IFRAME

which links
tohttp://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents

I don't know if this does what you want, or how well different
browsers will handle it, but it does appear to be an alternative
to iframe, scripting, or server-side includes.

They renders more or less the same.
[snip]
You can take a look some testcases at:
http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-tag/en/
Interesting. May I suggest that you add the links for the specific
test cases into each section? That way, readers don't have to scroll
all the way to the bottom of the page if they are only interested in
embedding, say, a flash object.

One potential problem appears to be that the NoScript plugin (which
I leave on by default) didn't load the "resultObje ct" until I
allowed this. Presumably, this indicates that others have abused this
technique in the past, much like frames and iframes. I wonder if
other "security" software or settings would cause similar problems?
Sep 23 '08 #62
On 23 Sep, 14:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
In article
<d13baf9b-d9f3-4a6c-a5ca-bbb341a19...@c5 8g2000hsc.googl egroups.com>,
"Roy A." <royarnes...@gm ail.comwrote:

On 22 Sep, 18:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
[snip]
See the note at the foot
of:http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present...ml#edef-IFRAME
which links
tohttp://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents
I don't know if this does what you want, or how well different
browsers will handle it, but it does appear to be an alternative
to iframe, scripting, or server-side includes.
They renders more or less the same.
[snip]
You can take a look some testcases at:
http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-tag/en/

Interesting. May I suggest that you add the links for the specific
test cases into each section?
Sorry, what I wrote about embedded html/xhtml documents wasn't related
to those testcases.

The main rendering problem is that browsers don't support intrinsic
dimensions for embedded document like:

<object data="math.xhtm l" type="applicati on/xhtml+xml"
style="height: auto; width: auto"
<img src="math.gif" alt="..." longdesc="descr iption.html">
</object>

Browsers that don't support "applicatio n/xhtml+xml" are using the
alternate content.
That way, readers don't have to scroll
all the way to the bottom of the page if they are only interested in
embedding, say, a flash object.
Hm, those testcases isn't mine. With flash objects, I don't think
problems with intrinsic dimensions applies in the same degree. I
haven't used flash, but it seems that they always comes with
dimensions fixed in pixels.
One potential problem appears to be that the NoScript plugin (which
I leave on by default) didn't load the "resultObje ct" until I
allowed this.
Isn't that a good thing? Then you can run flash only from domains you
trust.
Presumably, this indicates that others have abused this
technique in the past, much like frames and iframes.
No, what do flash got do with frames and iframes? It might indicate
that others has abused flash. AFAIK the object element don't allow
scripting between the parent document and the "entirely independent"
embedded document in the object element.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents>
I wonder if
other "security" software or settings would cause similar problems?
It might.
Sep 24 '08 #63
In article
<78************ *************** *******@j22g200 0hsf.googlegrou ps.com>,
"Roy A." <ro*********@gm ail.comwrote:
On 23 Sep, 14:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
[snip]
You can take a look some testcases at:
>http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-tag/en/
[snip]
>
One potential problem appears to be that the NoScript plugin (which
I leave on by default) didn't load the "resultObje ct" until I
allowed this.

Isn't that a good thing? Then you can run flash only from domains you
trust.
Presumably, this indicates that others have abused this
technique in the past, much like frames and iframes.

No, what do flash got do with frames and iframes? It might indicate
that others has abused flash. AFAIK the object element don't allow
scripting between the parent document and the "entirely independent"
embedded document in the object element.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents>
If you view the source of the test case pages linked from the
joliclic.free.f r page referenced above, you'll see that the very
first object is text/html, which is blocked even though it is NOT
a flash object. Here's an explicit link showing the problem:

http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-...text.html#html

I suspect a prior security problem stemming from html pages embedded
using the object tag prompted the NoScript authors to block such
things by default; if other security packages/plugins do the same thing,
this would undermine using the object tag as an alternative to scripting
and SSIs as a way of handling common content.
Sep 24 '08 #64
On 24 Sep, 14:13, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
In article
<78f15c48-1400-4bab-a0ee-814456030...@j2 2g2000hsf.googl egroups.com>,
"Roy A." <royarnes...@gm ail.comwrote:

On 23 Sep, 14:10, David Stone <no.em...@domai n.invalidwrote:
[snip]
You can take a look some testcases at:
http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-tag/en/
[snip]
[...]
>
No, what do flash got do with frames and iframes? It might indicate
that others has abused flash. AFAIK the object element don't allow
scripting between the parent document and the "entirely independent"
embedded document in the object element.
<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#em bedded-documents>

If you view the source of the test case pages linked from the
joliclic.free.f r page referenced above, you'll see that the very
first object is text/html, which is blocked even though it is NOT
a flash object. Here's an explicit link showing the problem:

http://joliclic.free.fr/html/object-...text.html#html
I suspect a prior security problem stemming from html pages embedded
using the object tag prompted the NoScript authors to block such
things by default;
Who knows what an unsigned add-on might do. It's ridicules. An static
html page served as 'text/html' or 'application/xhtml+xml' page isn't
a security problem. At least you should be able to see the alternate
content.
if other security packages/plugins do the same thing,
Why would they do that. An static html page from the same domain isn't
a security problem. They might let you disable iframes, or third party
objects, but that's another question. Again, you should be able to see
the alternate content.
this would undermine using the object tag
Well, some vendors would like to do that.
as an alternative to scripting
And scripting is more secure than an static html page? And the
'NoScript' add-on is just plain fun?
and SSIs as a way of handling common content.
Well, server side scripting is a way to handle alternate content like
html vs xhtml. Just serve e.g. MathML or SVG to browsers that handles
'application/xhtml+xml' and a bitmap picture with alt text to other
browsers. With simple CSS like 'display: block' and 'display: hidden',
you can serve unreadable xhtml to an html parser, without reducing the
experience for people with disabilities.
Sep 24 '08 #65
Ben Bacarisse wrote:
The usual method it to include some sort of build step when making the
site. There are literally dozens of options from WYSIWYG site editing
software to using a macro processor and something like make.
Yes, I use m4 and make for this sort of thing.

robert
Sep 27 '08 #66
On Sep 20, 8:53*pm, zwsdot...@gmail .com wrote:
*Without* using JavaScript or other active client-side scripting,
server-side includes or frames, is there a way to include a standard
header on all pages within a site? The design goal is to have the
For what it's worth, I've concluded that the answer to this question
is "yes, but all the methods have significant downsides." I am using
SSI. TheFAQ from my provider was stale information.
Sep 29 '08 #67
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:50:11 -0400, Stan Brown
<th************ @fastmail.fmwro te:
>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:27:28 +0300 from Jukka K. Korpela
<jk******@cs.t ut.fi>:
>No amount of reduction in site management work (like moving from manually
maintained headers to iframed header file) could ever justify all the
problems you create by using IFRAME.

My situation is not common headers, which indeed I handle by
preprocessin g, but common *page content* in two different sites with
different structures.

Here's a sample URL:
http://oakroadsystems.com/math/tiskurt.htm

The actual content (inside the IFRAME) is at my college's Web site:
http://www.tc3.edu/instruct/sbrown/ti83/skurt.htm

There may be a better way to accomplish what I'm trying to do, which
is to make the content available through my Web site and through the
College Web site, without duplicate uploading all the content. (There
are several dozen instructional pages like this, and the average page
is updates maybe two or three times a year.) Suggestions?

Notce that just above the IFRAME I do give a link for busting out of
the frame.
Personally, I think it's a good application for an IFRAME.

I suppose IFRAME's can overused/abused like everything else. The only
problem I've come across with IFRAMES is that search engines don't
seem to follow any links contained within the frame.

Rob
Oct 12 '08 #68

RobC wrote:
>I suppose IFRAME's can overused/abused like everything else. The only
problem I've come across with IFRAMES is that search engines don't
seem to follow any links contained within the frame.
Try creating shortcuts with different frames selected.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.co m/>

Oct 12 '08 #69

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