473,881 Members | 1,693 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Unicode: Combining diacritical "dot above" mark with the capital letter P

Hi all,

I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't. The following capital letters all work
correctly -

B C D F G M S T

with the diacritical marker &#_0775. Why am I having a problem with P?
The latter letter and those 8 listed above are all used in Gaelic.

I've presented the problem here -

http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html

Cheers,

Barry.
Jul 23 '05 #1
7 4826
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.co m> wrote in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html


t's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #2
Stan Brown <th************ @fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.co m> wrote in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html


t's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.


On my IE 6 (Win), I see the same situation as Barry: Ṗ gets
displayed incorrectly, other cases are OK. (Barry probably mistyped the
character references here to prevent newsreaders from interpreting.
But if someone's newsreader interprets strings as character references,
or as HTML markup in general, <blink><font color="red" size="7">the
newsreader needs to be fixed</font></blink>. Misrepresenting data is not
a solution. And a leading zero, though allowed, is rather pointless in
decimal character references.)

Specifically, I see Ṗ as capital P followed by a small box. The box
is IE's way of telling about a character it cannot render. I have no idea
why this happens, but we know IE's mechanism for dealing with combining
diacritic marks is defective. It can handle simple cases but fails often
miserably. However the usual failure is putting the diacritic at a wrong
vertical position, because IE does not pay attention to the height of the
base character - it probably just overprints the base character with a
glyph of the diacritic in a fixed position.

On the practical side, precomposed characters like Ṗ often work
better than decompositions like Ṗ, because
a) they work even on browsers that have no support to combining diacritic
marks but are able to use a rich enough font (e.g., several older
versions of IE)
b) when they work, they generally produce a better visual presentation,
since the glyph is designed by a typographer, instead of being
produced by a (simplistic) program that combines two glyphs.
On the other hand, it is possible that the font in use lacks a glyph for
the precomposed character but the browser would be able to handle the
decomposition using its general algorithms. At present, this is less
likely.

What you, Stan, have observed might be explainable as follows: you are
using a browser that can handle combining diacritics and also the
precomposed characters _but_ the glyphs for the latter are oddly designed
(consisting of a letter with the diacritic placed on the right of it).

If I tell IE to ignore fonts suggested on Web pages, then none of the
characters are correctly presented on most font choices. On Arial Unicode
MS, they are OK (technically - the glyphs are far too modern I'm afraid)
except Ṗ, which appears as mere P.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #3
On 24 Oct 2004, Barry wrote:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.


"it doesn't"?
You forgot to specify operating system, browser(s), and font(s).
Without this information, your statement is completely meaningless.

Read
- <http://ppewww.ph.gla.a c.uk/~flavell/charset/checklist.html>
"Combining marks"
- <http://ppewww.ph.gla.a c.uk/~flavell/unicode/>
"Combining marks"
And have a look at these test pages
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/combimarks.html >
<http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/temp/combimarks-indic.html>
using *various* browsers and fonts.

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #4
On Mon, 25 Oct 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
On my IE 6 (Win), I see the same situation as Barry: Ṗ gets
displayed incorrectly, other cases are OK.


What's "Win"? The display of base letters with combining marks depends
on the version of your operating system and your fonts. Windows 2000
(and above) has OpenType fonts, which support the combination of
base letters with marks. Palatino Linotype has a lot more characters
than Times New Roman. Have a look at
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nht...ombimarks.html

See also
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...icot/other.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...ewot/other.htm
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/...icot/other.htm
"combining marks".

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #5
Thanks guys.
Specificall y, I see Ṗ as capital P followed by a small box.

The box
is IE's way of telling about a character it cannot render. I have no
idea
why this happens, but we know IE's mechanism for dealing with
combining
diacritic marks is defective. It can handle simple cases but fails
often
miserably. However the usual failure is putting the diacritic at a
wrong
vertical position, because IE does not pay attention to the height of
the
base character - it probably just overprints the base character with a
glyph of the diacritic in a fixed position.

Yeah, that's exactly what I see too on IE 6.0.28

I was thinking that if you write P&#775, that IE would check some kind
of table and realise that this is infact &#7766 and fetch that glyph
only. Instead you suggest that IE would combine two glyphs - one with
a P and one with a dot. This would make much more sense, but should
there be a dot glyph in the eot file or does IE use its own - with one
vertical position for Caps and one for small letters? There is no
glyph for a dot in the eot file, nor is there anything mapped at
U+0307. Could this be the issue?

The funny thing is that I rewrote my javascript and perl lastweek
using diacritical marks only, so I'll have to undo all that again if
the issue lies with IE.
Jul 23 '05 #6
On 25 Oct 2004, Barry wrote:
I was thinking that if you write P&#775, that IE would check some kind
of table and realise that this is infact &#7766 and fetch that glyph
only.
That's how OpenType fonts are supposed to work in _every_ program,
not just Internet Explorer.
Instead you suggest that IE would combine two glyphs - one with
a P and one with a dot.
A fall-back mechanism.
This would make much more sense, but should
there be a dot glyph in the eot file
EOT? Why EOT?
or does IE use its own - with one
vertical position for Caps and one for small letters?


No. A combining mark is the same for capital and small base letter.

--
Top-posting.
What's the most irritating thing on Usenet?

Jul 23 '05 #7
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:
Stan Brown <th************ @fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Barry" <bg***@yahoo.co m> wrote in
comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.html:
I've noticed a strange error on my website. When I print a capital
letter P with a dot above, using & #7766; it appears correctly, but
when I use P& #0775 it doesn't.
I've presented the problem here http://baz.perlmonk.org/example.html
It's exactly the opposite for me: your four "775" examples all have
the dot above, and your other four examples have the dot looking
like a period (full stop) after the letter.

What you, Stan, have observed might be explainable as follows: you are
using a browser that can handle combining diacritics and also the
precomposed characters _but_ the glyphs for the latter are oddly designed
(consisting of a letter with the diacritic placed on the right of it).


Could be. I should have mentioned it's Mozilla 1.7 on Win98, but I
forgot. :-)

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Jul 23 '05 #8

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

9
3726
by: Pierre Senellart | last post by:
The C++ standard states (26.3.2.1), about std::valarray constructors: > explicit valarray(size_t); > > The array created by this constructor has a length equal to the value of > the argument. The elements of the array are constructed using the default > constructor for the instantiating type T. Does that mean that, on built-in types (e.g. int), "default initialization" (as described in 8.5) is performed?
1
1784
by: Christopher Subich | last post by:
I don't think the python regular expression module correctly handles combining marks; it gives inconsistent results between equivalent forms of some regular expressions: >>> sys.version '2.4.1 (#65, Mar 30 2005, 09:13:57) ' >>>re.match('\w',unicodedata.normalize('NFD',u'\xf1'),re.UNICODE).group(0) u'n' >>>re.match('\w',unicodedata.normalize('NFC',u'\xf1'),re.UNICODE).group(0) u'\xf1'
1
5789
by: John | last post by:
How can I draw single 1x1 pixel "dot" in window? Not a line, I really mean "dot".
2
1058
by: Tee | last post by:
In our web.config, when we are doing forms authentication, we have such code <authentication mode="Forms"> <forms name=".MyProject" etc etc> I see some example with a . in front of their project name at the <forms name> ... and some don't have the dot ... any differences between the dot or not dot ?
2
8832
by: anubis | last post by:
Heay, i've got this problem: http://rafb.net/paste/results/lpNgbn49.html i'm using wifstream to read utf-16 file and i've got this problem, that each byte is read into seperate char while little-endian uses at least 2 bytes for one sign. the code of method is in the above letter, also with the problem i'm attaching below:
14
6442
by: abhi147 | last post by:
Hi , I want to convert an array of bytes like : {79,104,-37,-66,24,123,30,-26,-99,-8,80,-38,19,14,-127,-3} into Unicode character with ISO-8859-1 standard. Can anyone help me .. how should I go about doing it ? Thanks
3
1584
by: Johs | last post by:
When I declare a string in C++ I type: std::string mystring = "sdfsdf"; afterwards I can access string methods like: mystring. but why is there both :: and . operators and what are the difference?
2
1087
by: COHENMARVIN | last post by:
I have a listbox of cities. The listbox is bound to a database table. But I want to add the option - "all cities" to the listbox. How do I do that? Thanks, Marvin
1
1315
by: maminx | last post by:
hello all, i have this situation, i have this script below <script type="text/javascript"> var money="45.000.000"; document.write(str.replace(/./, "")); </script> You see, i want to eliminate the element "." in variable money with replace reference, but it didn't work..
0
9776
by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
0
11104
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
0
10724
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
1
10825
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
9556
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
7953
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
7113
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
2
4198
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
3
3226
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.