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non-breaking hyphens??

is there a non-breaking hyphen in HTML?? for example, so a phone no.
falls all on one line.. as in..

1-800-444-5454... (and is not broken into two lines if phone no. occurs
near end of a line..)

(searched for 'hyphen' in FAQ pg, didn't find anything..)

thank you.. Frances


Jul 23 '05 #1
87 6405
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Frances Del Rio wrote:
is there a non-breaking hyphen in HTML??
‑ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/dashes.html>
1-800-444-5454... (and is not broken into two lines if phone no. occurs
near end of a line..)


Write your telephone numbers in standard format (ITU E.164).
Then there should be no hyphens in your numbers.

--
M. Pirard strikes again:
<http://www.alltheweb.c om/search?q=it1s&_ sb_lang=any>
<http://www.altavista.c om/web/results?q=it1s& kgs=0&kls=0>

Jul 23 '05 #2

"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4 .44.04100818072 10.3256-100000@s5b004.. .
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Frances Del Rio wrote:
is there a non-breaking hyphen in HTML??


‑ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/dashes.html>
1-800-444-5454... (and is not broken into two lines if phone no. occurs
near end of a line..)


Write your telephone numbers in standard format (ITU E.164).
Then there should be no hyphens in your numbers.


Probably not. On a web page for a flower shop in Davenport, Iowa, a phone
number should be written in the format commonly used by ordinary people in
Davenport, Iowa, not in a manner adopted by international commercial
concerns in Europe. Likewise, dates on a web-based calendar of events for a
church in Walla Walla are going to appear as "4/13/04, 4:30 P.M." or "April
13, 2004, at 4:30 pm". "2004-04-13 16:30" would be inappropriate.

Jul 23 '05 #3
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:
Write your telephone numbers in standard format (ITU E.164).
Then there should be no hyphens in your numbers.
Probably not.


Surely not, since the standard format has no hyphens.

Oh yeah, I know you tried to refute the _first_ sentence.
On a web page for a flower shop in Davenport, Iowa, a
phone number should be written in the format commonly used by
ordinary people in Davenport, Iowa, not in a manner adopted by
international commercial concerns in Europe.
Really? So you seriously think they will misunderstand, or fail to
understand, a phone number that uses standard punctuation?

The fact is that when nonstandard punctuation is used in phone numbers,
_different_ systems of punctuation are used, and the numbers become
understandable only if you look at the digits only and ignore _all_
punctuation. So you might just as well use standard punctuation, with
spaces (or no-break spaces when desired), which is the least confusing-
Likewise, dates on a
web-based calendar of events for a church in Walla Walla are going to
appear as "4/13/04, 4:30 P.M." or "April 13, 2004, at 4:30 pm".
"2004-04-13 16:30" would be inappropriate.


What about all the potential visitorslike tourists and immigrants who get
very confused with American notations like 03/04/05 and have to guess
which number means which component of a date? (In the worst case, they
think they know well what it means.)

Date issues are different from phone number notations, since real
misunderstandin gs are possible with dates. The first thing to note is
that by writing the year in four digits makes virtuallu sure that the
reader gets at least the year right. :-)

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #4
Once upon a time *Harlan Messinger* wrote:
"Andreas Prilop" <nh******@rrz n-user.uni-hannover.de> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4 .44.04100818072 10.3256-100000@s5b004.. .
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004, Frances Del Rio wrote:
> is there a non-breaking hyphen in HTML??


‑ <http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/dashes.html>
> 1-800-444-5454... (and is not broken into two lines if phone no. occurs
> near end of a line..)


Write your telephone numbers in standard format (ITU E.164).
Then there should be no hyphens in your numbers.


Probably not. On a web page for a flower shop in Davenport, Iowa, a phone
number should be written in the format commonly used by ordinary people in
Davenport, Iowa, not in a manner adopted by international commercial
concerns in Europe. Likewise, dates on a web-based calendar of events for a
church in Walla Walla are going to appear as "4/13/04, 4:30 P.M." or "April
13, 2004, at 4:30 pm". "2004-04-13 16:30" would be inappropriate.


I have understand that common accepted international standards is not
accepted in U.S. :-)

2004-04-13 16:30 is very easy to understand, e.g each day (date) have 24
hours. And its not a big problem if the line braks between the date and
the time, as they are separated.

All "real" browsers don't even break the date. But we know the problem
here is IE, as with many other things.

--
/Arne
Jul 23 '05 #5
Frances Del Rio wrote:
is there a non-breaking hyphen in HTML?? for example, so a phone no.
falls all on one line.. as in..

1-800-444-5454... (and is not broken into two lines if phone no. occurs
near end of a line..)

A general approach is:
css: .nobr { white-space: nowrap; }
html: <span class="nobr">1-800-444-5454</span>

--
jmm dash list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)
Jul 23 '05 #6
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote in
news:Xn******** *************** ******@193.229. 0.31:
Date issues are different from phone number notations, since real
misunderstandin gs are possible with dates. The first thing to note is
that by writing the year in four digits makes virtuallu sure that the
reader gets at least the year right. :-)


Why use sensible date notation when you could just dodge around the problem
with good scheduling? When your convention starts on 5/5/5, everybody
wins!
Jul 23 '05 #7

"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote in message
news:Xn******** *************** ******@193.229. 0.31...
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:
Write your telephone numbers in standard format (ITU E.164).
Then there should be no hyphens in your numbers.
Probably not.


Surely not, since the standard format has no hyphens.

Oh yeah, I know you tried to refute the _first_ sentence.
On a web page for a flower shop in Davenport, Iowa, a
phone number should be written in the format commonly used by
ordinary people in Davenport, Iowa, not in a manner adopted by
international commercial concerns in Europe.


Really? So you seriously think they will misunderstand, or fail to
understand, a phone number that uses standard punctuation?


Quite possibly. But it will *certainly* confuse some, who will say, "What
the heck does +19458293829 mean?" and may not recognize it as a phone
number. Remember, you're talking from the perspective of someone who already
knows the standard format.

Anyway that's not the main point. I believe you're inflating the scope and
role of standards committees. It's not up to an international committee to
dictate local practices or to coerce people into giving up their familiar
conventions in local affairs. I'd think you'd agree, unless you're an
Englishist or an Esperantist who'd like the ISO to compel his compatriots to
switch to English or Esperanto and stop using Finnish altogether. :-)

The fact is that when nonstandard punctuation is used in phone numbers,
_different_ systems of punctuation are used, and the numbers become
understandable only if you look at the digits only and ignore _all_
punctuation. So you might just as well use standard punctuation,
It's not a question of "might as well". It's not a question of making a
choice between the traditional convention and the standard, it's a question
of most people not even knowing about the convention.
with
spaces (or no-break spaces when desired), which is the least confusing-
Likewise, dates on a
web-based calendar of events for a church in Walla Walla are going to
appear as "4/13/04, 4:30 P.M." or "April 13, 2004, at 4:30 pm".
"2004-04-13 16:30" would be inappropriate.
What about all the potential visitorslike tourists and immigrants who get
very confused with American notations like 03/04/05 and have to guess
which number means which component of a date? (In the worst case, they
think they know well what it means.)


Many of them also get confused because we Americans have the annoying habit
of writing things in English instead of the tourists' language. (Most other
countries are the same way!) That's the way it goes when you travel: you
encounter things that are unfamiliar. If you go to Egypt, you'll usually see
numbers written in Arabic numerals; if you go to China, they'll often be
written in Chinese numerals.

I wouldn't have any argument against a movement at the national level to
introduce and switch to the standard format. After all, I've been wishing
for 30 years that we'd get around to switching to the metric system. But
that's not the same thing as advising someone (and by the way, I may not be
talking about the OP here--I'm talking about a generic situation) to switch
unilaterally to a convention unfamiliar to her and to the rest of her
community. There wouldn't be any more benefit to that than to being the only
butcher in the state to sell meat by the gram instead of by the ounce.

Date issues are different from phone number notations, since real
misunderstandin gs are possible with dates.
Real confusion is possible with phone numbers.
The first thing to note is
that by writing the year in four digits makes virtuallu sure that the
reader gets at least the year right. :-)


Since year 2000, I've tended to write four-digit years too: 3/15/2004. But
in daily use I stick to the local convention for the order of the date's
components.

Jul 23 '05 #8
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:
Really? So you seriously think they will misunderstand, or fail to
understand, a phone number that uses standard punctuation?
Quite possibly. But it will *certainly* confuse some, who will say,
"What the heck does +19458293829 mean?"


That's not standard punctuation.
I believe you're inflating the
scope and role of standards committees. It's not up to an
international committee to dictate local practices or to coerce
people into giving up their familiar conventions in local affairs.
The Web is not local. We are discussing authoring for the World Wide Web
here. And there are no "familiar conventions" for phone numbers even
locally but a confused mess. Since unification is needed anyway, there's
little reason not to do that by the standard.

ObHTML: There's the minor argument too that in HTML, we can easily and
effectively make a space non-breaking in a cross-browser way. The very
existence of this thread indicates this this is not the case for
hyphens.
Many of them also get confused because we Americans have the annoying
habit of writing things in English instead of the tourists' language.


Thank _you_ for saying that, even though you don't explicitly mention
that it's the "US English" with its odd notational conventions (like
using a period as a decimal separator!) that confuses us. You have the
liberty of continuing that even in the areas that confuse us most, like
phone numbers that might or might not be local and date notations that
look like fractions. ObHTML: evil browsers may split a line after a
solidus "/" as well, but admittedly they mistreat the hyphen "-" even
more often, and the only effective way (for both characters) is the
abhorred nonstandard <nobr> markup, except in special occasions.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Jul 23 '05 #9
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tu t.fi> wrote:
"Harlan Messinger" <h.*********@co mcast.net> wrote:
Really? So you seriously think they will misunderstand, or fail to
understand, a phone number that uses standard punctuation?
Quite possibly. But it will *certainly* confuse some, who will say,
"What the heck does +19458293829 mean?"


That's not standard punctuation.


Now that I'm researching the standard Andreas provided, all I'm
finding is examples that *do* use hyphens, in spite of what he said.
In fact, the only thing lacking in the OP's format is the plus sign.
(I think it's coincidence that we have a 1 in front of our area codes.
We had local calls, intra-LATA calls, and inter-LATA calls. For local
calls, we only needed the basic seven digits. For intra-LATA calls, we
needed to tack on the area code. For inter-LATA calls, to signal the
switch that the call was to another LATA, a 1 was inserted in front.
This was unrelated to 1 being the international dialing code for the
US.)
I believe you're inflating the
scope and role of standards committees. It's not up to an
international committee to dictate local practices or to coerce
people into giving up their familiar conventions in local affairs.
The Web is not local.


You're mixing up the medium with the communication. Communications via
international media are often local. I'm not making a specious
distinction. E-mail and SMTP are international. Does that mean an
Uzbek ought to me sure he follows international standards when he
sends e-mail in Uzbek to a family member? The New York Times is read
internationally . Advertisements are placed in it by local businesses
targeting local customers, and there's no reason why they need to
internationaliz e their ad copy.
We are discussing authoring for the World Wide Web
here. And there are no "familiar conventions" for phone numbers even
locally but a confused mess.
We've been recognizing phone numbers here without difficulty for the
past century or more, without kibbitzing by international standards
organizations, so in what sense are there no "familiar conventions"?

I have a confession: I think that uniformity has fallen by the wayside
here. I have a recollection that phone numbers always appeared as
(xxxx) xxx-xxxx, but nowadays I see xxx-xxx-xxxx a lot too.
Since unification is needed anyway, there's
little reason not to do that by the standard.

ObHTML: There's the minor argument too that in HTML, we can easily and
effectively make a space non-breaking in a cross-browser way. The very
existence of this thread indicates this this is not the case for
hyphens.
Many of them also get confused because we Americans have the annoying
habit of writing things in English instead of the tourists' language.
Thank _you_ for saying that, even though you don't explicitly mention
that it's the "US English" with its odd notational conventions (like
using a period as a decimal separator!) that confuses us.


At least we've gotten rid of the use of letters in place of the first
two digits of the number! When we moved to the town in which I mostly
grew up, our prefix (the three digits after the area code) was 531.
Everyone who lived there before us had JE1 (Jefferson-1).

Anyway, German, Danish, and so on have their own peculiar conventions
for dates and/or times. Have all Germans and Danes stopped using those
formats in their newspapers, magazines, and Web pages?
You have the
liberty of continuing that even in the areas that confuse us most, like
phone numbers that might or might not be local and date notations that
look like fractions. ObHTML: evil browsers may split a line after a
solidus "/" as well, but admittedly they mistreat the hyphen "-" even
more often, and the only effective way (for both characters) is the
abhorred nonstandard <nobr> markup, except in special occasions.

--
Harlan Messinger
Remove the first dot from my e-mail address.
Veuillez ôter le premier point de mon adresse de courriel.
Jul 23 '05 #10

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