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Verdana font. Why not?

I am a bit curious about this.

The graphic design people I work with say it is their preferred font for
web pages. The reason being that it is "kinder" to the eye both in terms
of shape and size.

The HTML "hardcore elititst" profess that it is a useless font because
it is too big compared to other fonts.

Personally I do not care one way or the other, but I generally trust
graphic designers more than programmers and rules lawyers when it comes
to pure design.

It seems to me that the only argument against using Verdana is that a
large number of browsers do not support it and therefore it causes their
pages to render with a very small font.

Can anyone honestly say they do not have the Verdana font installed?
Jul 21 '05
300 18512
Els wrote:
Wrong assumption ;-)

Ops :)
Jul 21 '05 #61
Els
Ståle Sæbøe wrote:
Then you haven't looked at my site. 100% Verdana ;-)

Mine too! :)


But where is it?

Oh :)

I guess its not really a site yet :)
http://80.202.168.171/sandbox/


Yup, I call it a site :-)
It has real columns, and a horizontal scrollbar because of a (too)
wide textarea near the bottom ;-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Status Quo - The Anniversary Waltz - Part Two
Jul 21 '05 #62
Els wrote:
Blinky the Shark wrote:
OT: Assuming the X-face is you - weren't you wearing a hat yesterday?
Not me.

<g>


No, really...

--
Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups

Jul 21 '05 #63
Martin! wrote:
Steve Pugh wrote:
Curt Balluff <po**@curt-balluff.de> wrote:

Use em or px
don't use pt


px is every bit as bad as pt. Em has bugs in IE. % is the best choice.

Steve


maybe if you want your site to be accessable by the largest possible
audience, but not many sites aim at 'everybody'.

it is also not easy to make a site 'right' for resolution varying from
mobile phone to WHUXGA, therefor people often settle for a range between
VGA and SVGA. in a small range like this font sizes can be defined with
an absolute unit without causing the site to be unreadable.

thus, what is best depends on your quality defenitions which are defined
by your audience (or client).

gr
martin


Okay, I'm totally missing something here. Every visual browser I'm
familiar with has a choice under the 'view' option to increase the size
of the text by various percentages. Being old as well as slow, I often
read pages at 120-200 percent, depending on font size and background.

I'm certainly not advocating unreadable fonts (although Ghu knows there
are enough unreadable pages out there), but it seems to me that once
again the user triumphs.

What am I missing?

--RC
Jul 21 '05 #64
On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 22:18:14 +0100, Ståle Sæbøe <ot*****@tdz.no > wrote:
Dave Anderson wrote: [...]
A common response when a web page intially appears as an unreadable mess
is for the user to ask himself "do I really want to deal with an
organization that has already demonstrated its incompetence?". ..

If he did not mess with the browser in the first place, chances are he
sees the verdana and is pleased with the nice readable product description.


<http://www.css.nu/articles/font-analogy.html>

Go figure...

--
Rex
Jul 21 '05 #65
Rick Cook <rc****@TAKEOUT .mindspring.com > wrote:
Okay, I'm totally missing something here. Every visual browser I'm
familiar with has a choice under the 'view' option to increase the size
of the text by various percentages. Being old as well as slow, I often
read pages at 120-200 percent, depending on font size and background.

I'm certainly not advocating unreadable fonts (although Ghu knows there
are enough unreadable pages out there), but it seems to me that once
again the user triumphs.

What am I missing?


Not much from the sound of it. If only all users were as well informed
about their browsers capabilities as you were...

But if you use Windows IE and if the page author has specified the
font size in px or pt then you can not resize the font without first
going into the settings and disabling _all_ author specified font
sizing. That's why using pt or px is a bad idea.

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <st***@pugh.net > <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Jul 21 '05 #66
That's why using pt or px is a bad idea.


idealistic and thus unrealistic
Jul 21 '05 #67
in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets, =?ISO-8859-
1?Q?St=E5le_S=E 6b=F8e?= wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
The problems with Verdana aren't a question of pure design, which is why
the graphic designers don't have the whole story. By way of exaggerating
the situation so as to illustrate the point: if a font were configured
so that, when "10pt" was specified, the letters were two centimeters
high (or, alternatively, one millimeter high), it would be a problem, no
matter how pleasing the font might be to the eye.
I have browsed the web since before graphic browsers.


Then you know how it worked just fine without ever setting font size. Of
course, you needed a machine that had text size big enough for you to
read, but after that, it was OK.
I have worked on
old and new lap tops and PCs, with huge monitors and tiny displays. I
have never experienced the phenomena you describe.
Propably you have enough clue to actually set the ppi setting of you OS.
Or you just never actually used very high ppi screen. Huge monitor vs
small one is not issue. Neither is it new lap top vs desktop. It is the
resolution that is used. The high ppi displays are still somewhat rare.
For those that do not know: 1pt = 1/72 inch. 10pt means 10px in a 72dpi
display and around 20px in a 144dpi display.


But, usually setting is 96ppi in both displays, so you get something like
12px in both systems. Or someone has set his ppi incorrectly in order to
see pt units in size they like (in windows, this is most natural, as the
ppi setting is not supposed to be correct...)

And, if you have 21" monitor just because you have vision problems, 10pt
is still 10 * 1/72 inch, which is 3.5mm (assuming you would set ppi
correctly). That is not too big. Of course anyone actually using it for
that reason won't use ppi setting that would get right results, but
somthing that gives them better results. Which kind of proves that pt
unit is no good.

And setting that setting wrong is not option for people that actually
need correct display of pt units, like graphical designers. Who are, BTW,
most likely to use expensive high ppi screens...

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Utrecht, NL.
Jul 21 '05 #68
Ståle Sæbøe wrote:
Dave Anderson wrote:
Ståle Sæbøe wrote:
It seems to me that if the user absolutely does not want to see web
pages in Verdana, he can easily override it and resize his own font
to suit his needs.


Given a reasonable browser he can, but will he bother?

A common response when a web page intially appears as an unreadable
mess is for the user to ask himself "do I really want to deal with an
organization that has already demonstrated its incompetence?" and
immediately move on to a competitor's web site. Even if he stays and
wastes time fiddling around to make the site usable to him, the user
is likely to be muttering to himself "goddamn incompetent d3ziiner
d00dz" -- which is not a good way to start a relationship.

If he did not mess with the browser in the first place, chances are
he sees the verdana and is pleased with the nice readable product
description.


*If* he has Verdana available -- but we already know that some people
don't, and so are likely to be presented with an unreadable mess.
Deliberately designing a site so that it doesn't work for some people
based on an unknowable-in-advance characteristic of their computer is
very much like a brick-and-mortar store employing someone to bar the
door to anyone who has green eyes -- which I suspect we'd all agree
would be a really stupid idea.

"If he did not mess with the browser in the first place" implies that
you believe that the user should not set browser defaults that he finds
comfortable because this might interfere with what some designer wants.
Is this really what you intended to say?

Dave

Jul 21 '05 #69
"Ståle Sæbøe" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets:
Stan Brown wrote:
"Ståle Sæbøe" wrote in comp.infosystem s.www.authoring.stylesheets:
I am a bit curious about this.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html

I read that before I started this thread. That guy only has one
argument. It is incredible how he manages to fill 2 pages to explain it.
I repeated it in my original post.


And yet you learned nothing from it.

Pity.

--

Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
Jul 21 '05 #70

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