Comparison of DB2 and Oracle?

[Rhino]

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

--
Rhino

[Mark Townsend]

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please take your pathetic attempts to some other group. Perhaps
alt.bored.troll.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

I have logged your previous attempts to start a flame war and no one
with an IQ over room temperature is going to fall for this one either.

Take your wasted life to alt.bored.trolls and post there.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[michael newport]

tell your friend Scott that he should stop wasting his time with DB2 and Oracle.

Use Ingres instead, it does the same stuff as the other 2, but its FREE.

Regards
Michael Newport

[Rhino]

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.

Rhino

[Rhino]

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2 but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have had to
answer.

Rhino

[Larry E]

Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions. This
stuff is almost religious to some people. The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms
- search the tech media for any reviews of each product
- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table

By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Larry Edelstein

Rhino wrote:

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.

Rhino

[Mark Townsend]

Rhino wrote:

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer
rather than in flames?

You can't - the exercise as you have it is a little facile. As a
suggestion, why not recommend a process to your friend, rather than just
an outcome. For instance

1) Work out what criteria are most important for you, for the given
situation (for instance, how you evaluate software depends on what you
want to use the software for, and databases can be used for many things
- from simple data management, to high end OLTP, to very, very large
Data Warehouse environments, and even more lately, to Content
Management). Other options such as price, support, market support,
platforms availability etc may also be relevant.

2) Evaluate the different offerings against this criteria. This may
require that you research the product's web site, read the doc, perhaps
even download and try. Definitely talk to each vendors sales
representatives - typically try to get to the more technical sales
consultants. As you go, use the newsgroup to validate your understanding
of what each offering does and does not do, and what you may have been told.

3) When you come up with a potential best candidate, validate your
decision. Seek references that best match your criteria. Talk to the
technical people in each reference account. Also ask to talk to the
users in each reference account (the two are often at odds as to what is
actually happening).

4) Then choose Oracle :-)

[Rhino]

"michael newport" <mi************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:63*************************@posting.google.co m...

tell your friend Scott that he should stop wasting his time with DB2 and Oracle.
Use Ingres instead, it does the same stuff as the other 2, but its FREE.

Thank you, that is also a useful answer.

But is cost the only reason you are recommending Ingres or does it do more
things better than Oracle and DB2? I haven't used Ingres either so I have no
idea. I'm pretty sure Scott has not used it either.

Rhino

[Rhino]

"Larry E" <la***@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Wt********************@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...

Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).
Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.
Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.
This
stuff is almost religious to some people.
That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.
The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms
There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)
- search the tech media for any reviews of each product
Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?
- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table
Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.
By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.

Rhino
Rhino wrote:

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...

Rhino wrote:
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott justwant some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at whichjobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I didn't know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent on-topic posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I tried that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it is.
Rhino

[Rhino]

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZYQcd.262640$MQ5.163157@attbi_s52...

Rhino wrote:

So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful answer rather than in flames?
You can't - the exercise as you have it is a little facile. As a
suggestion, why not recommend a process to your friend, rather than just
an outcome. For instance

1) Work out what criteria are most important for you, for the given
situation (for instance, how you evaluate software depends on what you
want to use the software for, and databases can be used for many things
- from simple data management, to high end OLTP, to very, very large
Data Warehouse environments, and even more lately, to Content
Management). Other options such as price, support, market support,
platforms availability etc may also be relevant.

2) Evaluate the different offerings against this criteria. This may
require that you research the product's web site, read the doc, perhaps
even download and try. Definitely talk to each vendors sales
representatives - typically try to get to the more technical sales
consultants. As you go, use the newsgroup to validate your understanding
of what each offering does and does not do, and what you may have been

told.
3) When you come up with a potential best candidate, validate your
decision. Seek references that best match your criteria. Talk to the
technical people in each reference account. Also ask to talk to the
users in each reference account (the two are often at odds as to what is
actually happening).

4) Then choose Oracle :-)

Thank you! Those are all excellent suggestions. (I'm ignoring your 4th
suggestion due to the obvious bias ;-)

Rhino

[Hans Forbrich]

Mark Townsend wrote:

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>
2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans

[Larry E]

Rhino wrote:

"Larry E" <la***@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:Wt********************@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.ne t...

Rhino,

Frankly, if your friend Scott is a person who doesn't have a db
background, he is not going to be able to understand any technical
differentiators that are brought forth here (and their significance).

Excellent point. I was expecting to help him a bit with that part of his
search.

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

This
stuff is almost religious to some people.

That's why I mentioned that I was not trying to start a flame war. Still, I
was quite prepared to ignore obvious zealotry on behalf of one product or
the other.

The best thing that Scott can
do is to:

- fully understand his customer's requirements from a business and
technology perspective
- tap into someone like Gartner, Mega, Giga for independent opinions on
each dbms

There you go; you've just answered Question 2 in my original post. I'm
familiar with Gartner and can probably find a website for them but I'm not
familiar with Mega or Giga at all. Can you suggest some URLs or at least
tell me the full names of these companies so that I can start searching? A
Google search on "Mega" is going to give me a gazillion hits ;-)

Sorry ... it's "Meta Group" not "Mega". My fault.

- search the tech media for any reviews of each product

Who would you consider the most reputable of the tech media with respect to
this sort of question, database comparisons?

Perhaps CMP Media. Info Week, EWeek, Computerworld ...

- call upon his local Oracle and IBM reps to bring whatever they can to
the table

Absolutely; I had every intention of suggesting that to him but only AFTER
he had done his research FIRST.

By the time he gets done here, his head is going to be spinning and he
will be asking "so who is right and who do I listen to?"

Yeah, I know, that's how it always seems to go with these things. No matter
how dilligently you look at the options, there is always a load of bias and
hype to weed through before you get to something that appears to be
objective truth.

That's why you're just not gonna get what you're looking for here.

Rhino

Rhino wrote:

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:41************@comcast.net...
Rhino wrote:

>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at
which
jobs.
>

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.
So how can I ask this question in a way that will get a meaningful
answer
rather than in flames?

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server
Thank you! As I said in my original post, I've never used Oracle so I
didn't
know that comp.databases.oracle was defunct. It had a few recent
on-topic
posts in it and I had no idea what its normal activity level is so I
tried
that one. I'll repost to the correct newsgroup now that I know what it
is.
Rhino

[Serge Rielau]

Hans,

Shame on you! You caved. Even Daniel didn't.
Let's pretend it didn't happen.

Cheers
Serge

[Richard D. Latham]

DA Morgan <da******@x.washington.edu> writes:

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.
Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:
1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and
Oracle?
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to
help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please take your pathetic attempts to some other group. Perhaps
alt.bored.troll.

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

--
#include <disclaimer.std> /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham la*****@us.ibm.com

[Hans Forbrich]

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

Especially the part about not having access to news, but able to monitor
google. I'd have concerns about any consultant who doesn't know how to get
free email such as gmail.google.com, or use groups.google.com

I s'pose the might be a legit reason, but ...

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

Or do you think you or your imaginary friend are in any position to
evaluate the values of shared-everything vs shared-nothing? How about
the value of procedure code compilation options? Bulk collection?
Multi-version read consistency? Do you really think there is any value
there based on your set-up?

I don't!
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

I have an associate that always knows exactly which product to
recommend. The one where he makes the greatest commission. Oh but
then he sells life insurance. ;-)

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Hans Forbrich wrote:

Richard D. Latham wrote:

It says a lot about consulting in the IT industry, that the part where
Scott is a consultant that recommends databases when he doesn't know
anything about databases, actually sounds like the truth. :-)

Especially the part about not having access to news, but able to monitor
google. I'd have concerns about any consultant who doesn't know how to get
free email such as gmail.google.com, or use groups.google.com

I s'pose the might be a legit reason, but ...

.... like all bait fish ... it smells.

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling
him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with
DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons
for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information
produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views
on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have had to
answer.

Rhino

I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.

But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.

So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[michael newport]

I used Ingres for 15 years
I have now used Oracle for 1 year
I am doing the same work now that I did on Ingres, except Oracle costs
a lot of money, and Ingres is free.

You can download Ingres from www.ca.com and give it a test.

[Noons]

Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message news:<2t*************@uni-berlin.de>...

Hans,

Shame on you! You caved. Even Daniel didn't.
Let's pretend it didn't happen.

and I'm still sitting on the fence...
:)

[Noons]

"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<33*****************@news20.bellglobal.com>.. .

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
etcetcetc...

Hmmm, lemme get this straight: Scott is a consultant
with lots of life-experience and he can figure out when
he's being given a ride. But, he doesn't know much about
databases... And he doesn't have access to newsgroups. But
he can use google newsgroups to follow a discussion.
Yet he doesnt know how to post in google newsgroups.

Hmmmmmmmmmm............

I'm sorry, but Scott reads as a fake. His password is not "TIGER",
is it? And the free class for "would be marketeers looking for an
easy ride on the next positioning paper" is now closed.
Too boring to do all over again. Private contributions
to my preferred charity are, of course, accepted.

This is *not* a troll
Of course not!
and we don't want to start a flame war!
Perish the thought...
Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Scott needs to read more about both products. And
learn more about IT, particularly databases.
Instead of hoping a Usenet discussion
is going to provide a free ride.

<plonk>

[Bruce M]

Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.net> wrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...

Mark Townsend wrote:

Rhino wrote:

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans

-----------------

Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.

[Hans Forbrich]

Bruce M wrote:

Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.

Not quite. I warned that I had a bias AND I didn't say anything technical
<g>

[Rhino]

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...

Rhino wrote:

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.

That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and DB2 but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so that
they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino

[Rhino]

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1098158866.213704@yasure...

Rhino wrote:

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...

Rhino wrote:

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling

him

how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with
DB2

but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons

for

him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information

produced

by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their

views
on

two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and

Oracle?
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to helpsomeone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott justwant some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at whichjobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.

Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to

people's questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of my own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never posted there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure out how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one over the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have had to answer.

Rhino

I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.

Well, I don't know how to convince you of that beyond what I've already
said.
But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.
I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.

He is rather new to systems work - I think he is just out of school - and he
doesn't had much contact with databases yet. He has heard names like Oracle
and DB2 and asked me which was best. I have no Oracle experience so I
suggested he post here and on the Oracle newsgroup but he doesn't have
newsgroup access at work or at home so I posted for him.

Now maybe that seems preposterous to you but it happens to be the truth.
So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.

I don't think Scott has a specific requirement in mind yet so I thought I'd
ask a general question on the pros and cons of DB2 vs. Oracle. If that
doesn't suit you, feel free to ignore this thread. It would be more positive
that calling me a liar.

Rhino

[Rhino]

"Noons" <wi*******@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:73**************************@posting.google.c om...

"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message

news:<33*****************@news20.bellglobal.com>.. .

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

etcetcetc...

Hmmm, lemme get this straight: Scott is a consultant
with lots of life-experience and he can figure out when
he's being given a ride. But, he doesn't know much about
databases... And he doesn't have access to newsgroups. But
he can use google newsgroups to follow a discussion.
Yet he doesnt know how to post in google newsgroups.

Hmmmmmmmmmm............

I'm sorry, but Scott reads as a fake. His password is not "TIGER",
is it? And the free class for "would be marketeers looking for an
easy ride on the next positioning paper" is now closed.
Too boring to do all over again. Private contributions
to my preferred charity are, of course, accepted.

This is *not* a troll

Of course not!

Please see my reply to DA Morgan where I explained Scott's situation in a
bit more detail. The fact is his employer doesn't allow newsgroup access at
work - I've encountered other (foolish) employers who followed the same
policy - and he plans to get newwgroup access at home but is in the middle
of a move to a new house right now. He will get newsgroup access in a few
weeks once he's settled in his new house. *I* told him about Google's
newsgroup reading capabilities so that he could read these replies from his
browser; I don't think he knew about Google newsgroup archives before.

Since none of that is relevant to the question at hand, I omitted it from
the post. Besides, what possible benefit could I get from making him up?? I
was simply trying to explain that I was asking a question for a friend who
had such-and-such a level of understanding of database. Period.

Now, do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion?

and we don't want to start a flame war!

Perish the thought...

Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

Scott needs to read more about both products. And
learn more about IT, particularly databases.
Instead of hoping a Usenet discussion
is going to provide a free ride.

Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino

[Haider Rizvi]

Rhino,

You are seeing such a strong reaction about your query because in the
(recent) past, similar queries have resulted in long, heated discussions
/ mud-slinging, etc. And it seems everyone wants to avoid a repeat of
that.

I did a quick search on google (see url below), which turned up a lot of
posts (the top 4 have 176, 117, 101 and 23 articles !!). If you (or
Scott) have a chance to read up those posts (all available on internet
so no need for newsgroup access) and still have questions, may be you
can post more specific questions that people can (somewhat) objectively
answer.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=gr...20vs.%20oracle

Regards,
--
Haider

[Rhino]

"Haider Rizvi" <ha*****@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7z************@thinkhr.torolab.ibm.com...

Rhino,

You are seeing such a strong reaction about your query because in the
(recent) past, similar queries have resulted in long, heated discussions
/ mud-slinging, etc. And it seems everyone wants to avoid a repeat of
that.

I did a quick search on google (see url below), which turned up a lot of
posts (the top 4 have 176, 117, 101 and 23 articles !!). If you (or
Scott) have a chance to read up those posts (all available on internet
so no need for newsgroup access) and still have questions, may be you
can post more specific questions that people can (somewhat) objectively
answer.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=gr...20vs.%20oracle

Thanks, Haider. I've already suggested that to Scott ;-)

Rhino

[Larry]

Rhino,

There is no way to discuss pros and cons of DB2 and Oracle in a
constructive way (i.e. in a way that would provide value to the
customer) without going back to specific customer requirements, which
you are telling us that he doesn't have. There just isn't a good answer.
The first thing he needs to learn to be a successful consultant is that
EVERYTHING begins with customer requirements. It's kinda like going car
shopping and asking the dealers to compare a Nissan Altima with a Honda
Accord. You need to know certain things about how you're going to use
the car to make heads or tails of what they are going to tell you.

Larry Edelstein

Rhino wrote:

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1098158866.213704@yasure...

Rhino wrote:

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:41**************@x.washington.edu...
Rhino wrote:
>One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
>newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be
telling
him
>how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.
>
>Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
>understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with

DB2
>but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons

for
>him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
>choose or recommend a database to his clients.
>
>Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information

produced
>by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
>DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their
views
on
>two questions:
>
>1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and
Oracle?
2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to
help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?
>
>This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott
just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at
which
jobs.

DB2 consists of two letters and one integer and Oracle consists of 6
letters and no integers.

This is not the first time you have tried to start a flame war and your
previous attempt is logged in my database.
Please name another time I've tried to start a flame war. If you look in
comp.databases.ibm-db2 you'll find that I am usually a responder to
people's
questions and usually only start my own posts when I have a technical of
my
own. If you look in comp.databases.oracle you'll find that I've never
posted
there before because, as I said, I am not familiar with Oracle.

Can you suggest a better way to ask my question? I am trying to figure
out
how someone having to choose between Oracle and DB2 would choose one
over
the other. Surely that is a legitimate question that many people have
had to
answer.

Rhino

I am still far from convinced your question is sincere.

Well, I don't know how to convince you of that beyond what I've already
said.

But if it is the nonsense about a friend that is so wholly uneducated he
couldn't handle a stack of 3x5 cards is preposterous on its face.

I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.

He is rather new to systems work - I think he is just out of school - and he
doesn't had much contact with databases yet. He has heard names like Oracle
and DB2 and asked me which was best. I have no Oracle experience so I
suggested he post here and on the Oracle newsgroup but he doesn't have
newsgroup access at work or at home so I posted for him.

Now maybe that seems preposterous to you but it happens to be the truth.

So if you are serious ... ask serious questions. Do you think a hammer
is the best tool for assembling a precision watch? Do you think a
microscope appropriate for putting the propeller on an aircraft carrier?
You give an exact description of the need and someone might think you
seriously trying for something other than a flame war.

I don't think Scott has a specific requirement in mind yet so I thought I'd
ask a general question on the pros and cons of DB2 vs. Oracle. If that
doesn't suit you, feel free to ignore this thread. It would be more positive
that calling me a liar.

Rhino

[Mark Townsend]

Haider Rizvi wrote:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=gr...20vs.%20oracle

Rhino - before you pass this on to Scott you may want to recognize the
inherent bias this Goggle query has by being limited to only the replies
in the DB2 newsgroup.

[Jim Kennedy]

"Rhino" <rh****@NOSPAM.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Lx********************@news20.bellglobal.com. ..

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...

Rhino wrote:

>Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
>going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and

DB2

but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that

is favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so

that they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino

I liked Oracle better because the concurrency model is much nicer. I found
that you had to run DB2 in autocommit mode if you used dynamic SQL because
of page locks on the plan table. Never had to worry about that in Oracle.
That doesn't really tell you much. It would be much better if you actually
did some work and said what your business needs.
Jim

[Haider Rizvi]

Mark Townsend <ma***********@comcast.net> writes:

Rhino - before you pass this on to Scott you may want to recognize the inherent
bias this Goggle query has by being limited to only the replies in the DB2
newsgroup.

Given the number of posts in those discussions I doubt that there is any
bias left. Anyway, feel free to replace db2 ng with oracle ng, heck I'll
even post the url:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...db2+vs.+oracle

Happy? now don't say that there still is bias because db2 comes first
in the query :-)

Regards,
--
Haider

[Serge Rielau]

DB2 UDB for LUW does not have page locks.. Only row and table level

[DA Morgan]

michael newport wrote:

I used Ingres for 15 years
I have now used Oracle for 1 year
I am doing the same work now that I did on Ingres, except Oracle costs
a lot of money, and Ingres is free.

You can download Ingres from www.ca.com and give it a test.

Perhaps rather than doing on Oracle what you used to do on Ingres you
should try leveraging what Oracle can do and do things differently.

Your statement is roughly equivalent to ... I used to build houses
with a hammer. Now I work in a glass factory and ....

Had you said 15 years of Ingres and 1 year of DB2 or Informix or 3x5
cards I'd have given the same advice.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Bruce M wrote:

Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.net> wrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...

Mark Townsend wrote:

Rhino wrote:
This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.
Two things

1) This WILL end in a flame war.

I agree Mark. This discussion, in a public forum such as these lists, will
attract the strong supporters and will invariably devolve to a religious
discussion.

First step should be to develop a set of business requirements. Then ask
experts to explain how each product under consideration will satisfy the
requirements.

Then decide based on who you trust! Ultimately both products, as well as
some open source (or soon to be open source - sic), will satisfy many
business requirements.
<Now my religious rant ...>

Don't let anyone tell you that Oracle is the most expensive - that myth
comes from people who buy before they think (or have someone else think for
them) and then avoid or are ignorant of what they have bought. And is
encouraged by each and every competitor.

If used properly, and if you don't re-invent the wheel by using built-in
features and capabilities, the difference in long term cost (between
Oracle, DB2, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQL Server, etc.) is very, very
small.

I happen to prefer Oracle because it provides a lot of functionality in the
database at no additional price - functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

These capabilities may exist in other database managers, but if not (or if
the developer doesn't know/understand how to use them in Oracle) these
capabilities will be duplicated. That moves the money from "product price"
to "development cost" in creating the application and the cost of
supporting the application into the hands of the developer instead of the
'vendor'. (You pay for it somehow <g>)

Aside from that, there _are_ a few technical differences ... I'll leave
those to others.

<end rant>

2) You have posted this message to a defunct Oracle group. If you insist
on starting this at least use the right targets -
comp.databases.oracle.server

Copied to comp.databases.oracle.server. Requesting all other threads and
potential replies to this one PLEASE remove cdo and only use cdo.server

Thanks
/Hans

-----------------

Huh? This guy is told NOT to get religous and there somebody gets
religious on him...not fair.

Well I'll gladly bow my head and pray that he and all other trolls go
away forever. That's about as religious as I'm willing to get. It is
no wonder Rhinos are an endangered species.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

"DA Morgan" <da******@x.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:1098155825.612649@yasure...

Rhino wrote:

Secondly, when you post and ask such questions here ... all you are
going to get are people's opinions ... some very biased opinions.
That's why I was hoping to hear from people who had used both Oracle and
DB2
but weren't employees (or resellers) of either of them. The marketing
information by the vendor always tends to be skewed in some way that is
favourable to the vendor but not necessarily a fair way.

So what exactly is the value given by people in the DB2 usenet group
saying "We're best" while the people in the Oracle usenet groups say
"We're best"?

I was actually hoping to hear from people who had used BOTH products so that
they could tell me which they prefered and why.

Rhino

I've used both and would gladly tell you which I prefer and why. But not
when, in my opinion, you start off with a bold faced lie. Following that
lie you then claim to not be a troll and not to be trying to start a
flame war.

I wasn't going to believe the first lie ... why should I not suspect the
second and third statements of being of equal value?

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

I've only mentioned my friend's first name because I am trying to protect
his privacy but he definitely exists. If you like, I'll ask him for
permission to specify his full name, mailing address, and phone number and
then you can contact him to ask if he really exists.

I wouldn't believe you if he wrote me a check. Your statements were
preposterous on their face: And they still are.

If you want information on these products go to http://www.ibm.com and
http://otn.oracle.com. Your credibility in all of these groups among, it
seems, all posters is zero.

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[DA Morgan]

Rhino wrote:

Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino

And exactly what you are not going to get as I haven't found a single
post from anyone that believes you. It is absolutely impossible for the
situation you presented to be true.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.washington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)

[Mikito Harakiri]

Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.net> wrote in message news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...

...functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:

1. "workflow". What exactly is this? A bunch of boxes connected with
arrows with some state flowing through them? A very rudimentary
execution environment, if you ask me: no composite data structures, no
exception handling, no debugger, or other things that we take for
granted in any decent programming language today. Does workflow scale
when comlexity increases? And finally how does workflow fit into SQL
execution? I bet any seasonamble programming would prefer to deal with
business logic in a conventional programming language rather than
workflow.

2. "message queueing". Isn't message queue just a table? If it is,
then wouldn't it be easy to leverage SQL interface instead of goofy
PL/SQL API?

3. "http request/response capability". Isn't apache no longer a part
of default server installation in 10g?

[Hans Forbrich]

Mikito Harakiri wrote:

Hans Forbrich <ne*******@telus.net> wrote in message
news:<h3Scd.18205$cr4.15935@edtnps84>...

...functionality that I see required in many
apps such as: workflow, message queueing, replication, subqueries, direct
http request/response capability, security, backup/recovery, admin &
management tools, job scheduler (akin to cron, but inside the DB), DB
initiated callouts to OS shared libraries, DB initiated mail & page, DB
initiated TCP calls, and so on.

I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:

The value is simply in having a wheel around that doesn't need to be
re-invented and maintained.

No matter how much one explains these away with "isn't it just ...",
developers always seme to be reinventing these "justs". What you call
"bells and whistles" seem to be a base requirement in 90% of the projects
I've seen in the past 3 years - only the developer's don't realize the
bells are already there so they either build or buy a completely new set.

If that wasn't true, JMS, MQ Series Queuing and Workflow (oh, sorry - it's
WebSphere now), and the like would not have a reason for being.

Or are you saying - let's get back to commoditizing the SQL engine so we can
recover some of the revenue from these capabilities? Or continue stretching
project timelines to accomplish stuff that already exists? <g>

/Hans

[Mikito Harakiri]

"Hans Forbrich" <ne*******@telus.net> wrote in message
news:%8xdd.22506$cr4.15445@edtnps84...

No matter how much one explains these away with "isn't it just ...",
developers always seme to be reinventing these "justs". What you call
"bells and whistles" seem to be a base requirement in 90% of the projects
I've seen in the past 3 years - only the developer's don't realize the
bells are already there so they either build or buy a completely new set.

Not all technologies are created equal. How much added value is there? Does
that "framework" really simplifies a lot to be worth considering?

If you want something that seems to be needed in 90% of the cases, then I
can sell you "business process coordinator" framework. You have to be
critical about its capabilities, though. It would take you just 2 years to
learn it, as it is quite messy yet. And after that you might discover that
you'd probably be better off just programing your task instead of wasting
your time trying to master a technology that has no clear definition.

To repeat, what exactly workflow is doing? Does it really save any
development time, compared to traditional programming? Does it scale when
business logic becomes more complex?

The argument that they have it because their comptitors have it is nonsence.
Sure when you read a survey of competing RDBMS you see the table with all
features listed. Clearly, nobody wants to see their product with the least
number of check marks in that table. My perspective on this: if users are
really that stupid to draw conclusions from such a table, then they deserve
the product they've got.

[Jim Kennedy]

"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:2t*************@uni-berlin.de...

DB2 UDB for LUW does not have page locks.. Only row and table level

Doesn't it still have a problem with dynamic SQL such that it locks the plan
table so people who need to bind programs with the database have to wait
until the transaction competes. Thus if one issues dynamic SQL and doesn't
commit for several minutes it will prevent (serialize) those programmers
from binding their programs with the database.
Jim

[Noons]

mi*****************@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a*************************@posting.google.c om>...

I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.
Because you reject that they can be useful?
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
Most definitely not. That is a file system. A *database* (that is what the
"D" in RDBMS stands for) is not even necessarily a SQL execution engine:
it could be an execution engine for many other languages. And then there
is the *relational* bit attached to it: the "R". IF you don't know what that
means and what it can do *way beyond* SQL itself ever will, then there
is no point in going there. Just use it as a "SQL engine". While others laugh.
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:

Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?

[michael newport]

Daniel,

in Ingres I wrote 4GL, in Oracle I write PL/SQL
in Ingres I wrote SQL, in Oracle I write SQL
in Ingres I ran an overnight batch from a Unix cron job, in Oracle I
schedule a dbms_job
in Ingres my results went to a database table, in Oracle my results go
to a database table
in Ingres I wrote a user parameterized report, in Oracle I write a
user parameterized report
in Ingres I ran the report with a system call, in Oracle I use Oracle
Reports server (with all its nasty bugs)

Ingres is free, Oracle is not

did I miss something ?

Regards
Michael Newport

[Serge Rielau]

I have never heard of such a problem and if it ever existed I would
consider it a bug.
Checking....

Cheers
Serge

[Serge Rielau]

Noons wrote:

mi*****************@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a*************************@posting.google.c om>...

I alway wondered what is the true value of those bells and whistles.

Because you reject that they can be useful?

Because often they are not useful, or priceworthy, for a given specific
application. I think a core point of this, carefully flame free, thread
so far has been that on eneeds to know ones requirements to knwo which
"bells and whistles" are needed in a specific case.

Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and

Most definitely not. That is a file system. A *database* (that is what the
"D" in RDBMS stands for) is not even necessarily a SQL execution engine:
it could be an execution engine for many other languages. And then there
is the *relational* bit attached to it: the "R". IF you don't know what that
means and what it can do *way beyond* SQL itself ever will, then there
is no point in going there. Just use it as a "SQL engine". While others laugh.

Uhm.. while splitting hair one must be careful not to cut ones fingers.
A database is a repository. Its just sits there. Quiet and dumb.
It's that MS (management system) part that does all the work. To the
best of my knowledge neither Oracle nor IBM are in the business of
selling databases.
Now that R correlates, for all major RDBMS that I know, quite well with
SQL as it's access language. Do you know of other languages commonly
used in an RDBMS? Yes, there could be, but there aren't.
Now products have a tendency to evolve beyond the original purpose.
All major vendors support procedural extensions of some sort which are
more or less interacting with the relational engine.
And different vendors have different opinion on how many extensions to
the core should be part of that core RDBMS or stay components to be
added on.
Each his/her religion I 'spose. In the end RDBMS integrate with other
middleware and apps. Be it as the killer product or a component of one.
There is a lot of bloat going on in the market (and I'm not excluding
any vendor)
and that's where the open source products come in...

everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:

Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?

He may be part of a significant part of the customer base for RDBMS.
Not everyone needs a Winnebago. Some folks just want to commute to
work... Mind you that doesn't make Winnebagos bad

Cheers
Serge

[Serge Rielau]

OK, here is the deal:
When you execute a dynamic statement which depends on table T.
DB2 will hold a usage lock on T until the end of the transaction.
So noone will be able to alter T (in a non-trivial way) until this
transaction is over.
An alternate design would be to release the lock after usage.
However in the interest of keeping the cache fast the capturing of locks
needs to be minimized. Schema evolution is considered a much rarer (more
rare??) event than cache-hits

Does that answer the comment?

Cheers
Serge