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Comparison of DB2 and Oracle?

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

--
Rhino
Nov 12 '05
137 6697
JS
DA Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<109825036 5.710337@yasure >...
Rhino wrote:
Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino


And exactly what you are not going to get as I haven't found a single
post from anyone that believes you. It is absolutely impossible for the
situation you presented to be true.


the true answer to the original question posted, which was, which db
is better, is: it's a tie, both products under the control of
experienced DBA('s) (and let's not forget the developer's) will do the
job for which they were designed.
Both products can scale indefinately, perhaps db2 has better locking
mechanism but overall you would have to slice the product very thinly
to declare a true winner. That said, db2 is cheaper, so in my mind you
get more bang for the buck with db2.
Nov 12 '05 #61
JS wrote:
That said, db2 is cheaper, so in my mind you
get more bang for the buck with db2.


I note the following from http://oraclestore.oracle.com (US) and
http://www-306.ibm.com/software/info...cts/index.html

Personal:

DB2 UDB PERSONAL EDITION INSTALL LIC+SW MAINT 12 MO (D5B69LL) 461.00
Oracle Database Personal Edition - Named User Plus Perpetual[$400.00]
(add 15% for support) = $60

The licensing agreements on the IBM site are moderately confusing for me
(I'm familiar with Oracle's licensing mess), but IF I interpret them
correctly, having checked the numbers for other versions ...

the LIST price for DB2 at any version, personal / workgroup /
enterprise / and so on seems roughly equivalent to the Oracle
counterpart, within a reasonable error.

From what I can tell, DB2 provides the opportunity to buy more options,
resumably because the capabilities are not included in the base line. But,
in fairness, in both cases I see options that are not in the other, and I
assume that the items that are not listed as options are embedded in the
base product.

The only discussion can be from a list price perspective and standard
discounts - all bets are off when negotiating prices as there are to many
additional variables.

So I see NO PRICING advantage to DB2.

My conclusion: I could agree with your comment that DB2 is cheaper (if you
insist on sticking with that), but I perceive it is NOT less expensive.

/Hans

Nov 12 '05 #62
wi*******@yahoo .com.au (Noons) wrote in message news:<73******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com>...
mi************* ****@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a******* *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com>...
Let's not forget that RDBMS essentially is a SQL execution engine, and
Most definitely not. That is a file system.


Are you kidding?
A *database* (that is what the
"D" in RDBMS stands for) is not even necessarily a SQL execution engine:
it could be an execution engine for many other languages.


By RDBMS I have meant SQL DBMS; this is what all vendors are offering.

It is SQL interface that makes DBMS that powerful, not bells and
whistles. Some procedural to SQL is warranted, because user-defined
functions make SQL more powerful. Analytic exptensions arguably makes
SQL even mightier. And, sorry, junk XML extensions don't make SQL more
powerful.
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:


Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?


SQL is high level programmatic environment. Did I ever say I don't
need high level programming environment and goind to reimplement it
myself? Or I'm talking to DBA, who usually have no idea what
programmatic environment is?
Nov 12 '05 #63
"Mikito Harakiri" <mi************ *****@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:8a******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com...
wi*******@yahoo .com.au (Noons) wrote in message

news:<73******* *************** ****@posting.go ogle.com>...
mi************* ****@yahoo.com (Mikito Harakiri) wrote in message news:<8a******* *************** ***@posting.goo gle.com>...
everything else should be judged from the perspective how well does it
fit into that primary purpose. Therefore, let's go through your list
itemized:


Your primary purpose is totally wrong. You don't need a RDBMS,
you need only a SQL engine. Obviously, you can do everything
else the database can do, yourself, and better. What can I say?


SQL is high level programmatic environment. Did I ever say I don't
need high level programming environment and goind to reimplement it
myself? Or I'm talking to DBA, who usually have no idea what
programmatic environment is?


You probably have meant that there is much more to RDBMS than just SQL
engine. One need to store tables somewhere, there should be a way to connect
client somehow, etc. DBAs usually make a great deal out of those gory
implementation details. In that case I have a news for you: there is not
much demand in marketplace for masters of segments and extents anymore --
it's automated. The art of juggling init.ora parameters is on its way to
obsolescense as well. Once again, it's SQL interface is what defines
database, and would stay with us for quite a while.
Nov 12 '05 #64
michael newport wrote:
correction you thought that you had made your point...

You can also use JAVA on Ingres.

1. Security model – same
2. Scalability - same
3. Performance - same
hardly
hardly
hardly

And if you disagree feel free to point me to the benchmarks
that prove otherwise. Last time I looked at Ingres it had nothing
even remotely approaching FGA and FGAC capabilities.
4. Shared Everything Architecture - equivalent
Nonsense.
5. RAC - equivalent
Pure rubbish. You need to get back on your medication. ;-)
6. DataGuard - equivalent
Send a link.
7. RMAN - equivalent
Not in your wildest imagination.
28. TAF (transparent application failover) - equivalent
Sorry but my contacts at CA say no such technology exists.
8. User defined indexes - same
Provide a link or demonstrate the Ingres syntax.
9. User defined operators - same
Provide a link or demonstrate the Ingres syntax.
10. User defined locking - nice but never needed
Your loss.
11. Domain indexes - nice but never needed
Your loss. But then you don't have full-text indexing as in
Oracle Text and InterMedia so why have the domain indexes when
you don't have the technology to use them.
14. Function based indexes - nice but never needed
Your loss.
16. User defined data types - same
In your dreams.
17. Partitioning and Subpartitioning - same
Nonsense.
18. Global Temporary Tables - same
Nonsense.
19. External Tables - same
Nonsense.
20. Index Organized Tables - same
Nonsense.
21. Enterprise level support 7x24x365 - same
For free. You've really got to stop smokin' that stuff.
22. Books at Amazon.com
(Oracle 27,707 hits, DB2 1,955 hits, Ingres 0 hits if refering to
your product)
23. Jobs at Dice.com
(Oracle 8,097 jobs, DB2 1,779 jobs, Ingres 18 jobs)
24. Jobs at Monster.com
25. Jobs at Hotjobs.com

I agree that Oracle wins on the job front but that will change.
Would you rather keep your job and use Ingres ? or
keep Oracle and have your job outsourced to India ?
More jobs for MySQL than Ingres. More jobs for PostgreSQL than Ingres.
My jobs not in danger. And if it was there are 8,097 possibilities for
me. You get to choose from 18. And it is no secret I will get paid
tens of thousands of dollars more each year with Oracle or DB2 than you
will with you open source (because we couldn't sell it to anyone) database.
26. Packages - like programs ?
You made up your answers to previous questions when you had no idea what
the technology was so why ask a question now?
27. Native compilation into C of PL/SQL – never needed this
Apparently you've never built a real RDBMS application with tens of
thousands of simultaneous users runnign 7x24x365. Perhaps Ingres is the
right tool for you.
29. A prayer the product will still exist in 10 years. –
now that Ingres is Open Source it will still be here, why,

because its free

for the few things that Ingres does not have, Oracle is not worth the money ??

I know I have made my point !

Regards
Michael Newport


In a world with multiple open-source products only the best will
survive. A category in which, alas, Ingres is not a player. The only
reason Ingres is open-source is CA couldn't sell it. It has no real
community support and will perish. Well no doubt there is someone
out there using Advanced Revelation, RPG II, dBASE 4, etc. But they
really are not players and that is where Ingres is going. Even FoxPro,
as pathetic as Microsoft's marketing is, does better than Ingres.

--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Nov 12 '05 #65
JS wrote:
DA Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<109825036 5.710337@yasure >...
Rhino wrote:

Nobody's looking for a free ride. He/we just wanted to hear from people who
had used BOTH products to see what their pros and cons were. He/we also
wanted recommendations about good independent sources of reviews of these
products. That's exactly what I asked for.

Rhino


And exactly what you are not going to get as I haven't found a single
post from anyone that believes you. It is absolutely impossible for the
situation you presented to be true.

the true answer to the original question posted, which was, which db
is better, is: it's a tie, both products under the control of
experienced DBA('s) (and let's not forget the developer's) will do the
job for which they were designed.
Both products can scale indefinately, perhaps db2 has better locking
mechanism but overall you would have to slice the product very thinly
to declare a true winner. That said, db2 is cheaper, so in my mind you
get more bang for the buck with db2.


Another one that gave into the temptation to render an opinion when the
better man would have ignored the temptation. Repent. ;-)
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Nov 12 '05 #66
michael newport wrote:
correction you thought that you had made your point...

You can also use JAVA on Ingres.
But nothing I've read says you can use Java IN Ingres. As in stored
procedures. But since Ingres is missing triggers, I suppose it doesn't
really matter. (Have to admit the rough counterpart - events - is neat. A
bit like database level triggers.)

1. Security model – same
Agreed, if you restrict yourself to simple grants. The Oracle security
model has a few additional things that are relevant and somewhat more
advanced than what the Ingres DBA manual indicates. At the tip of the
iceberg we see Virtual Private Database ...
2. Scalability - same
I can't seem to find any reference to scalability in the Ingres
documentation, or to system limitations. Nor did Google give any
references to big Ingres implementations .

Pointers would be appreciated to indicate that Ingres can handle 3000
concurrent users and 20TByte of raw data.
3. Performance - same
Checked TCP.org - no Ingres in sight. Any suggestions?
4. Shared Everything Architecture - equivalent
5. RAC - equivalent
So you are saying I can have 2 servers updating the same database
concurrently? Not SMP - separate machines. Updating the same table?

Couldn't find that in the docco.

What I did find, in the System Administrator's guide (pp11-1) is "The Ingres
High Availability Option is not scalable; that is, it does not provide
active instances on multiple nodes."
6. DataGuard - equivalent
I simply could not find the terms failover and failback in the docco.
Pointer?

The System admin manual does discuss a cluster-coordinated switch over,
using scripts. I assume you mean that. A bit like the pre-DataGuard 'Fail
Safe' back in 7.3.4 and 8.0.
7. RMAN - equivalent
Nothing I saw in the docco indicated that there is a facility to do the
backupand track the location of the pieces of the backups to provide
recommendations about which files (Journal or other) are required to
recover the database. Seems it's a manual effort. Perhaps I'm wrong?
28. TAF (transparent application failover) - equivalent
That's usually a function related to the cluster-cordinate failover. TAF
can provide transparent failover, with no need to restart the transaction.
8. User defined indexes - same
We store non-traditional datatypes (keyword, spatial data, images, music,
sheet music ....) and want to create a custom index? Oracle permits that -
you define the indexing mechanisms and tell Oracle to use that WHILE
keeping the base integrity of the index mechanism.

Ingres, being open source, allows you to totally rewrite indexing - so that
is the same. However, the engine doesn't then guarantee the integrity of
other kinds of indexes while one is putzing with the base indexing code. A
bit of a trade-off?
9. User defined operators - same
10. User defined locking - nice but never needed
Most developers depend on table serialization to ensure that operations
block appropriately. Even if that cuts scalability to 5-10 concurrent
users.

I prefer having some mechanism other than data locking to coordinate
concurrent operations.
11. Domain indexes - nice but never needed
Domains are basically previously undefined datatypes, somewhat like UDTs
(which are not limited to just "structures ")

Why would anyone want to create any new data type and create an index type
that's relevant to the UDT? Much better to put that code in the
application than in the database! (Not)
12. Reverse-key indexes - same
Didn't see that in the online SQL manual as part of the CREATE INDEX
command. Have to take your word for it.
13. Compressed indexes - same
Yup. Finally one that seems similar. With the level of flexibility
described, possibly even better than Oracle's compression.
14. Function based indexes - nice but never needed


I think you missed the definition. In Oracle, the index is based on a user
defined _expression_ - so the ability to create an index on

(col1 * col2 + col3 )

is permitted. This are useful if the expression (using any function, even
user created functions) happens to occur frequently. Why look up the
pieces and assemble them later?

I could go on, but ....

My conclusion now is the same as I'd concluded that early 90's when a buddy
went to work for Ingres and encouraged a 'fair evaluation': Ingres is a
good database for reasonably plain, small, simple database usage with
nicely defined data buckets. For that it's probably one of the better
databases, but from what I can tell all effort goes into the application to
overcome the limitations.

However, my philosophy is 'give unto the database everything that can be
centralized'. Oracle's philosophy of additional tools, tricks and
simplifications help me. They will optimize and maintain those leaving me
free to worry about the application. And since I am willing to use them,
these items make the application's 3-year cost fairly reasonable.
I'm happy that Ingres is Open Source, even under CA's 'special' license. (I
hate it when the lawyers have to add value to a perfectly reasonable GPL.)

Of all the Open Source RDBMSs, I think Ingres will give Oracle the biggest
run for it's money if it survives. However I see MySQL, PostgreSQL - and
now Ingres - are competing and I think that will likely devolve to the old
unix SysV vs BSD core battles which helped no one (except Microsoft).

Since the questions I asked were mainly rhetorical, hopefully this will end
the "Ingres is good too!" contribution to the DB2 vs Oracle thread. <G>

/Hans
Nov 12 '05 #67
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.ibm .com> wrote in message news:<2t******* ******@uni-berlin.de>...
They believe by storing their data in tables and having some RI they are
using an RDBMS.

Ah!, but it's "got a SQL engine", you see? Gotta be good... :)

All they have done is found persistent storage for their data which then
is "processed" using nested cursors and procedural languages.
Bingo. They "encapsulat e" that too, in "beans". It's
all soooo mnemonic, isn't it?

The _center piece_ of RDBMS: "relational alegbra" ends up as roadkill in
the ditch. 30 years of research and all there is to show for it is that
data is stored in tables.

"Algebra"? What, you now wanna mix religion into this?
Narh, let's dumb down the industry and its players:
best way of ensuring mediocrity gets a free ride,
masquerading as new "technology ".
I should be fine with it.. it does sell hardware.


Of course it does. Wait until MySQL is the only
one used: that will open the floodgates.
Nov 12 '05 #68
*bigfatgrin*I see we agree :-)
Nov 12 '05 #69
Serge Rielau wrote:
*bigfatgrin*I see we agree :-)


Can I persuade you to leave just enough of the original post that it is
possible to maintain contex?

Thanks.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Nov 12 '05 #70

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