473,854 Members | 1,789 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Comparison of DB2 and Oracle?

One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have
newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him
how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches.

Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to
understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2
but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for
him. He does not have a lot of database background but sometimes has to
choose or recommend a database to his clients.

Scott has enough life-experience to take the marketing information produced
by IBM and Oracle with a grain of salt and would like to hear from real
DBAs, especially ones who are fluent with both products, for their views on
two questions:

1. What are the pros and cons of the current releases of DB2 and Oracle?

2. What other sources of *independent* information are available to help
someone new to databases choose between DB2 and Oracle?

This is *not* a troll and we don't want to start a flame war! Scott just
want some honest facts to help him decide which product is best at which
jobs.

--
Rhino
Nov 12 '05
137 6697
michael newport wrote:
Then again, perhaps it's not uncommon that when your opponent is
generally making no sense, that you stop reading his posts objectively,
and just assume that the whole argument is absurd, rather than just the
individual (and overwhelming) portions of it that really are absurd?


which bit did you have trouble with ?


The lack of "T" in your "TCO".

I mean, there are many different costs in owning software. Not just
the initial cost.

1. Purchase cost.

This is what you seem to be focusing on. Unfortunately, it's not the
total cost. For most larger databases, it isn't even always a
significant portion of the total cost.

2. Support costs.

This, with #1, is what you pay to the vendor, and often significantly
outweighs the purchase cost. Sure, Ingres may be free to "purchase",
but what about support costs if/when something goes wrong?

At one time, support came free with purchase. Nowadays, it is swinging
heavily in the other direction, especially with commodity (read: open
source) software. The cost of 24/7 within-the-hour support is
significant, but so is its peace of mind.

3. Development costs.

This is what the purchaser spends to integrate the software into their
infrastructure. This may be a lonely IT tech in a closet somewhere
figuring out how to get the software installed, or it may be an entire
software development engineering team with a few DBAs trying to
architect their business model inside the database. Generally
speaking, this outweighs both #1 and #2 together.

If, then, the database product provides functions, stored procedures,
and other database-isms ("Oracle-isms" or "DB2-isms" for the newsgroups
getting this cross-posted) which save you 2 weeks of development time
in the pursuit of your business goals, right there you've saved a
significant portion of your purchase cost of any of the "expensive"
database vendors. I know that 2 weeks of my time is worth way more
than $400 - although I suspect most DB2 or Oracle deployments cost more
than $400 in purchase costs. Even with $20,000 in purchase costs, if
it saves me 4 weeks in development time, and a corresponding 1-2 weeks
in testing time (since I shouldn't need to debug that function - IBM or
Oracle have already done that for me), I've saved a significant portion
of that purchase cost... at least if I'm contracting. And we get to
market (deployment) 5-6 weeks earlier. If this new database
application is supposed to save the whole corporation 1 hour of work
per person per month, and there are 1000 employees, that's 1250-1500
hours saved in those extra 5-6 weeks, and it only takes an average of
$10/hour to pay for the rest of the purchase price of $20,000. In
other words, the "purchase price" is FREE at the point where the
application would be deployed if I didn't have those extra built-in
functions.

And it's this last area that you seem to keep ignoring. I don't think
it's me who is having trouble with the thread...
Nov 12 '05 #121
michael newport wrote:
I also read that IBM and Sybase appear to be going opensource.

IBM is a company, not a product.
IBM Cloudscape has been open sourced as "Derby".
There aren't even rumours that IBM may open source one of it's
mainstream commercial RDBMS (DB2, IDS, XPS and RedBrick)

Cheers
Serge
Nov 12 '05 #122
Darin McBride wrote:
DA Morgan wrote:

You can, if you wish, get support for a license. That is annual, and
provides unlimited support calls. Quite different from licensing.

<heavy sigh>


When the facts don't support a position it is not uncommon to have
pseudofacts invented.

To be really fair, this is just nitpicking on the semantics. To most
people, "licensing" really means "total cost payable to the vendor."
If I must buy an annual support contract to ensure the product's
success in my environment, that's the same thing, at the end of the
day - money going from my company to Oracle, IBM, MS, CA, whatever.

Most of the thread arguing against Ingres has talked vaguely about a
"total cost" of ownership - and the one time Michael has a valid point
about the vendor portion of that TCO (which, of course, does not
validate anything else he says), you go and nitpick his terminology.

Then again, perhaps it's not uncommon that when your opponent is
generally making no sense, that you stop reading his posts objectively,
and just assume that the whole argument is absurd, rather than just the
individual (and overwhelming) portions of it that really are absurd?


Buy a single copy of Personal Oracle. Get a support contract for less
than $200. Give me a break! I paid more for dinner and a bottle of wine
last night.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Nov 12 '05 #123
> 2. Support costs.

This, with #1, is what you pay to the vendor, and often significantly
outweighs the purchase cost. Sure, Ingres may be free to "purchase",
but what about support costs if/when something goes wrong?

At one time, support came free with purchase. Nowadays, it is swinging
heavily in the other direction, especially with commodity (read: open
source) software. The cost of 24/7 within-the-hour support is
significant, but so is its peace of mind.
I agree support costs money.
But this is not product dependent.
It depends on the support you need.

Mature products give you peace of mind, and Ingres has a long history.
3. Development costs.

This is what the purchaser spends to integrate the software into their
infrastructure. This may be a lonely IT tech in a closet somewhere
figuring out how to get the software installed, or it may be an entire
software development engineering team with a few DBAs trying to
architect their business model inside the database. Generally
speaking, this outweighs both #1 and #2 together.

If, then, the database product provides functions, stored procedures,
and other database-isms ("Oracle-isms" or "DB2-isms" for the newsgroups
getting this cross-posted) which save you 2 weeks of development time
in the pursuit of your business goals, right there you've saved a
significant portion of your purchase cost of any of the "expensive"
database vendors. I know that 2 weeks of my time is worth way more
than $400 - although I suspect most DB2 or Oracle deployments cost more
than $400 in purchase costs. Even with $20,000 in purchase costs, if
it saves me 4 weeks in development time, and a corresponding 1-2 weeks
in testing time (since I shouldn't need to debug that function - IBM or
Oracle have already done that for me), I've saved a significant portion
of that purchase cost... at least if I'm contracting. And we get to
market (deployment) 5-6 weeks earlier. If this new database
application is supposed to save the whole corporation 1 hour of work
per person per month, and there are 1000 employees, that's 1250-1500
hours saved in those extra 5-6 weeks, and it only takes an average of
$10/hour to pay for the rest of the purchase price of $20,000. In
other words, the "purchase price" is FREE at the point where the
application would be deployed if I didn't have those extra built-in
functions.

And it's this last area that you seem to keep ignoring. I don't think
it's me who is having trouble with the thread...


Again, these costs are entirely dependent on people, not product.

More importantly OpenSource software is yours to change.
Nov 12 '05 #124
Serge,

would you like to see these other IBM products OpenSourced ?

Regards
Michael Newport
Nov 12 '05 #125
> >>michael newport wrote:


Daniel,

what do you do at the University of Washington ?

nothing to do with education ?

Regards
Michael Newport

Teach databases something that might have interested you
once in your life.

I am still interested, which is why we are having this discussion.
But rather than back a product because it has a particular brand,
I prefer a more realistic discussion of experience.

Have you ever used Ingres ?


I don't "back" a product. I work routinely in multiple products. That
I teach one relates to what the university's students want ... not what
I do.

But no one wants to learn Ingres. It is a decaying corpse that CA has
attempted to bury at sea. If you want to work with a real open-source
database the clear choice is MySQL.


So you have never used Ingres.

I guess the OpenSource tide brought Ingres back to shore.

Why is the clear choice MySQL ?
Nov 12 '05 #126
"Jim Kennedy" <ke************ *************** *@attbi.net> wrote in message news:<Tzifd.680 2$HA.6215@attbi _s01>...
If this is the same Ingres I used awhile ago I wouldn't touch it with a ten
foot pole even if you paid me. The concurrency model sucks, start a
transaction, insert a record, lock 95% of the table if it has a primary
key - because the page locks on the index locks most of the pages. NO ONE
ELSE COULD GET ANY WORK DONE, unless you threw out the transaction model and
went to auto commit. POS.


The very same POS. That got shafted out of the market
PRECISELY because of the crap it always was.
Did you ever try crashing the server? Best way to ensure
you lost all your work, with Ingres.
Nov 12 '05 #127
You are asking me whether I want to be fired from my current job.
I currenly own a good portion of DB2 for LUW's SQL Compiler code.
For sure I'm not in it for the charitable work although it sometimes
feels like it.

Cheers
Serge
Nov 12 '05 #128
michael newport wrote:
2. Support costs.

This, with #1, is what you pay to the vendor, and often significantly
outweighs the purchase cost. Sure, Ingres may be free to "purchase",
but what about support costs if/when something goes wrong?

At one time, support came free with purchase. Nowadays, it is swinging
heavily in the other direction, especially with commodity (read: open
source) software. The cost of 24/7 within-the-hour support is
significant, but so is its peace of mind.


I agree support costs money.
But this is not product dependent.
It depends on the support you need.

Mature products give you peace of mind, and Ingres has a long history.


Not quite - unchanging products give you peace of mind - as long as new
features are added, things can break.
3. Development costs.

This is what the purchaser spends to integrate the software into their
infrastructure. This may be a lonely IT tech in a closet somewhere
figuring out how to get the software installed, or it may be an entire
software development engineering team with a few DBAs trying to
architect their business model inside the database. Generally
speaking, this outweighs both #1 and #2 together.

If, then, the database product provides functions, stored procedures,
and other database-isms ("Oracle-isms" or "DB2-isms" for the newsgroups
getting this cross-posted) which save you 2 weeks of development time
in the pursuit of your business goals, right there you've saved a
significant portion of your purchase cost of any of the "expensive"
database vendors. I know that 2 weeks of my time is worth way more
than $400 - although I suspect most DB2 or Oracle deployments cost more
than $400 in purchase costs. Even with $20,000 in purchase costs, if
it saves me 4 weeks in development time, and a corresponding 1-2 weeks
in testing time (since I shouldn't need to debug that function - IBM or
Oracle have already done that for me), I've saved a significant portion
of that purchase cost... at least if I'm contracting. And we get to
market (deployment) 5-6 weeks earlier. If this new database
application is supposed to save the whole corporation 1 hour of work
per person per month, and there are 1000 employees, that's 1250-1500
hours saved in those extra 5-6 weeks, and it only takes an average of
$10/hour to pay for the rest of the purchase price of $20,000. In
other words, the "purchase price" is FREE at the point where the
application would be deployed if I didn't have those extra built-in
functions.

And it's this last area that you seem to keep ignoring. I don't think
it's me who is having trouble with the thread...


Again, these costs are entirely dependent on people, not product.

More importantly OpenSource software is yours to change.


Ok, I see where you're coming from now. But I think you missed
something. If I use a smaller product, such as Ingres, which doesn't
have a function which takes me 4 weeks to implement, vs using Oracle or
DB2 or MSSQL (big three) which does have that function, saving me, in
effect, 4 weeks of development, then the "pricey" database just cost me
nothing - the costs and the savings cancel each other out.

Small, stable vendor means reinventing the wheel on many projects.
Nov 12 '05 #129
Darin McBride wrote:
michael newport wrote:

2. Support costs.

This, with #1, is what you pay to the vendor, and often significantly
outweighs the purchase cost. Sure, Ingres may be free to "purchase",
but what about support costs if/when something goes wrong?

At one time, support came free with purchase. Nowadays, it is swinging
heavily in the other direction, especially with commodity (read: open
source) software. The cost of 24/7 within-the-hour support is
significan t, but so is its peace of mind.


I agree support costs money.
But this is not product dependent.
It depends on the support you need.

Mature products give you peace of mind, and Ingres has a long history.

Not quite - unchanging products give you peace of mind - as long as new
features are added, things can break.

3. Development costs.

This is what the purchaser spends to integrate the software into their
infrastructu re. This may be a lonely IT tech in a closet somewhere
figuring out how to get the software installed, or it may be an entire
software development engineering team with a few DBAs trying to
architect their business model inside the database. Generally
speaking, this outweighs both #1 and #2 together.

If, then, the database product provides functions, stored procedures,
and other database-isms ("Oracle-isms" or "DB2-isms" for the newsgroups
getting this cross-posted) which save you 2 weeks of development time
in the pursuit of your business goals, right there you've saved a
significan t portion of your purchase cost of any of the "expensive"
database vendors. I know that 2 weeks of my time is worth way more
than $400 - although I suspect most DB2 or Oracle deployments cost more
than $400 in purchase costs. Even with $20,000 in purchase costs, if
it saves me 4 weeks in development time, and a corresponding 1-2 weeks
in testing time (since I shouldn't need to debug that function - IBM or
Oracle have already done that for me), I've saved a significant portion
of that purchase cost... at least if I'm contracting. And we get to
market (deployment) 5-6 weeks earlier. If this new database
applicatio n is supposed to save the whole corporation 1 hour of work
per person per month, and there are 1000 employees, that's 1250-1500
hours saved in those extra 5-6 weeks, and it only takes an average of
$10/hour to pay for the rest of the purchase price of $20,000. In
other words, the "purchase price" is FREE at the point where the
applicatio n would be deployed if I didn't have those extra built-in
functions.

And it's this last area that you seem to keep ignoring. I don't think
it's me who is having trouble with the thread...


Again, these costs are entirely dependent on people, not product.

More importantly OpenSource software is yours to change.

Ok, I see where you're coming from now. But I think you missed
something. If I use a smaller product, such as Ingres, which doesn't
have a function which takes me 4 weeks to implement, vs using Oracle or
DB2 or MSSQL (big three) which does have that function, saving me, in
effect, 4 weeks of development, then the "pricey" database just cost me
nothing - the costs and the savings cancel each other out.

Small, stable vendor means reinventing the wheel on many projects.


Well said. Not once in my experience has the cost of any database
product been 10% of the cost of a system on which it was implemented:
Often substantially less than that. Last project on which I worked we
spent $80,000 for the database licenses. We spent $2.5M on development.
I'm going to sweat 3.2% of the system cost vs. the cost of testing
changes to the product's kernel to implement missing features? Perhaps
in someone's dreams ... most certainly in my nightmares. Mr. Newport has
obviously never done serious development where he was responsible for
the budget too.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with 'u' to respond)
Nov 12 '05 #130

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

38
25137
by: Mike | last post by:
No flame wars, please! We're planning a move from a non-relational system to a relational system. Our choices have been narrowed to Oracle and DB2. Since we're moving from non-relational to relational, then we're not currently using any relational-type operators. So I expect the end result to use simple, SQL standard commands and queries. The question: At the SQL standard level is there any
125
15533
by: Rhino | last post by:
One of my friends, Scott, is a consultant who doesn't currently have newsgroup access so I am asking these questions for him. I'll be telling him how to monitor the answers via Google Newsgroup searches. Scott has heard a lot of hype about DB2 and Oracle and is trying to understand the pros and cons of each product. I'm quite familiar with DB2 but have never used Oracle so I can't make any meaningful comparisons for him. He does not have...
133
9109
by: jonathan | last post by:
hey all, I realize that this question might pop up from time to time, but I haven't seen it a while and things might of changed, so - Right now (July 2004) how does mysql stand up in comparison to oracle? We are seriously considering migrating our multi-processor oracle system to mysql to save on licensing costs, and would need several features that mysql may or may not have:
63
25731
by: Nick Palmer | last post by:
Hi all, Is there a DB2 equivilant to Oracle's DB Link functionality ? I have two DB2 databases and I need to get access to the tables in one from the other. In Oracle I would just create a DB Link between the two instances. Is such a thing possible between two DB2 databases ? Thanks in advance, Nick
11
3209
by: Mark A | last post by:
Here is Mark Townsend's (Oracle Product Manager) explanation and justification for posting in the DB2 newsgroup, as posted on the Oracle newsgroup, and my response: "Mark Townsend" <markbtownsend@comcast.net> wrote in message > > By an large you will find that they > all fall into 1 of 3 categorires. > > 1) Explaining how Oracle does something when somebody asks how to do the
11
17070
by: Rosco | last post by:
Does anyone have a good URL or info whre Oracle and Access are compared to one another in performance, security, cost etc. Before you jump on me I know Oracle is a Cadillac compared to Access the Ford Fairlane. I need this info to complete a school project. Thanks.
2
13794
by: Nadeem Bitar | last post by:
I've searched unsuccessfully on google and the archives for a technical comparison of Oracle and PostgreSQL. Is there any free and recent comparison that covers more than just the basic differences. Thanks, Nadeem -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
2
14259
by: Vinod Sadanandan | last post by:
All, Below listed are the new features in Oracle 11g ,please join me in this discussion to generate a testcase and analyze each of the listed features . Precompilers: Additional Array INSERT and SELECT Syntax Support by Pro*C/C++ and Pro*COBOL Precompilers: Dynamic SQL Statement Caching in Pro*C/C++ and Pro*COBOL Precompilers: Fix Execution Plan in Pro*C/C++ and Pro*COBOL Precompilers: Flexible B Area Length...
0
9901
marktang
by: marktang | last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However, people are often confused as to whether an ONU can Work As a Router. In this blog post, we’ll explore What is ONU, What Is Router, ONU & Router’s main usage, and What is the difference between ONU and Router. Let’s take a closer look ! Part I. Meaning of...
0
11031
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
0
10684
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
1
10763
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
9517
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
7918
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
7082
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
1
4563
by: 6302768590 | last post by:
Hai team i want code for transfer the data from one system to another through IP address by using C# our system has to for every 5mins then we have to update the data what the data is updated we have to send another system
2
4159
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.