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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11599
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:

For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost.
<snip>

A couple of things should be pointed out with this comparison

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM DB2
WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web serving
environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2 CPUs)
or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support for up to
4 CPUs in a cluster).

Comparative based prices are then

Oracle SE1 4995 per CPU
IBM DB2 WUSE 7500 per CPU
Oracle SE 15000 per CPU (includes RAC)

2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so I'm
not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison. They
also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same capability
that Advanced Security option provides.

However, keep in mind that this is a huge drop in price for oracle.
Imagine if it still used its power-unit licensing cost - and you were
going to use four 3 ghz CPUs. That would cost about $300k / CPU - or
about $1.2m for to fully license the quad. Based upon this - oracle
has dropped its price around 75% in four years!
Where did you get this price from ? It sounds completely made up -
AFAIK, Oracle never published power unit pricing for 3 GHz machines.
Now, I'm not sure how DB2 UDB was licensed in 2000 - but I think it
was actually less than it is now. So, at the same time oracle has
dropped its price 75% db2 has raised its price 10% I believe (please
correct me on the older db2 prices).
I'm not sure that IBM has indeed raised prices. This quote is taken
directly from the IBM website "DB2 WSE and DB2 WSUE have undergone
significant licensing changes when compared to DB2 V7. If you licensed
DB2 WSE V7 with the Internet Processor license, you must migrate to DB2
WSUE V8. The cost of DB2 WSUE V8 has been reduced by 47% when compared
to DB2 V7 prices."

In addition, it seems that IBM nows bundles 1 year of support with their
high end licence (DB2 ESE) - at least, those purchased via Passport
Advantage. This may account for what you are seeing as raised prices,
but in reality it's just a means of revenue recognition (certain
marketshare analysis, for instance, only count "new" licence revenue
towards their marketshare numbers - so bundling support with upfront
licences can help improve that number. Products that require a re-up as
you move from one version to another also benefit from this business
practice)
So back to my original question - any one have tips on using
competitive pricing to drive oracle down to more competitive pricing?


1) Get your figures straight 2) Negotiate

Nov 12 '05 #81
Mark Townsend wrote:
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:

For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost.

<snip>

A couple of things should be pointed out with this comparison

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM DB2
WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web serving
environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2 CPUs)
or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support for up to
4 CPUs in a cluster).

Comparative based prices are then

Oracle SE1 4995 per CPU
IBM DB2 WUSE 7500 per CPU
Oracle SE 15000 per CPU (includes RAC)

2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so I'm
not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison. They
also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same capability
that Advanced Security option provides.


Not that dread mention of Tivoli to provide equivalent security. Every
time I bring that up the blue suits go into attack mode. I also note
that in the comparisons not once was the DPF price or the required
add-on for HA included even though just one or two posts earlier
everyone agreed that they were essential.
So back to my original question - any one have tips on using
competitive pricing to drive oracle down to more competitive pricing?

1) Get your figures straight 2) Negotiate


Anyone that doesn't negotiate prices on enterprise software is someone
that would buy a car off the dealer's lot of the price listed in the
newspaper. And probably shouldn't be allowed to have a DBA account.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #82

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VVNBc.1571 11$Ly.81952@att bi_s01...
A couple of things should be pointed out with this comparison

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM DB2
WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web serving
environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2 CPUs)
or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support for up to
4 CPUs in a cluster).

Comparative based prices are then

Oracle SE1 4995 per CPU
IBM DB2 WUSE 7500 per CPU
Oracle SE 15000 per CPU (includes RAC)

DB2 Workgroup Server Unlimited Edition is not needed. If there are a lot of
users at one time, you don't want each web user to have their own connection
into DB2 with only 4 processors. Connection pooling can be used with a
reasonable number of simultaneous users.

With connection pooling, a user might have to wait until another DB2 process
has finished, but they would be waiting on resources anyway (disk, CPU etc)
if everyone tried to run exactly at the same time.
Nov 12 '05 #83
Ian apparently said,on my timestamp of 22/06/2004 4:04 AM:

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?

You mean like every Oracle option?


No. The "meaning" is yours.
I was suprised to learn that (range/list) partitioning costs extra on
Oracle.
Me too, mainly because it isn't true.

So, what's your point?


Ditto.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #84
Daniel Morgan apparently said,on my timestamp of 22/06/2004 6:42 AM:

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?

That's what it is. Installed by default but you can not use it without
paying an additional licensing fee.


Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to
the TCO of the "equivalent " configurations.
Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security.
Ah well, in character. What can one say...

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #85
DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities. DB2 UDB includes
database object security (which to me is the most basic security for
an rdmbs). DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.

Larry Edelstein

Noons wrote:
Daniel Morgan apparently said,on my timestamp of 22/06/2004 6:42 AM:

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


That's what it is. Installed by default but you can not use it without
paying an additional licensing fee.

Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to
the TCO of the "equivalent " configurations.
Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security.
Ah well, in character. What can one say...


Nov 12 '05 #86
The reference to Tivoli for security is mystifying. DB2 can use Tivoli
storage manager (or Veritas or Legato) for Backup and archival
management. DB2 can use Tivoli products for monitoring.

For security, 99% of DB2 customers today use services provided by the
operating system (like Kerberos on Windows and RACF on zOS). I'm aware
that there are Tivoli security products, but none of them are part of a
typical DB2 installation.

Noons wrote:
Daniel Morgan apparently said,on my timestamp of 22/06/2004 6:42 AM:

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


That's what it is. Installed by default but you can not use it without
paying an additional licensing fee.

Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to
the TCO of the "equivalent " configurations.
Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security.
Ah well, in character. What can one say...


Nov 12 '05 #87
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:
DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.
"capabiliti es"?

DB2 UDB includes
database object security (which to me is the most basic security for an
rdmbs).
Really? How?
DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.


And?

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #88
Daniel Morgan wrote:


Anyone that doesn't negotiate prices on enterprise software is someone
that would buy a car off the dealer's lot of the price listed in the
newspaper. And probably shouldn't be allowed to have a DBA account.


Yes, it seems that some software sales reps learned from used car dealers:

San Jose Mercury News
Chris O'Brien, 06/22/04

Oracle salesman Tony Kender was competing with PeopleSoft and SAP for a
client back in March 2002 when he fired off an e-mail to a supervisor
with the subject line: ``How Dirty Can I Fight?''

Kender wanted to insert a slide into his presentation bashing his rivals
and sought his boss's permission. ``This gives us the opportunity to
perform a bit of a sneak attack,'' he wrote to his supervisor.

The boss, Bob Greene, wrote back: ``Remember, SAP is not the enemy, as
much as you'll want to spank them. PeopleSoft is the enemy. Bury them. . .

``Now let me get back to my red meat breakfast.''

The e-mail exchange came to light during the Oracle antitrust trial in
which the U.S. government is trying to block Oracle's $7.7 billion
hostile takeover bid for rival PeopleSoft. It's a juicy example of how
the first two weeks of the trial in San Francisco have provided a rare,
behind-the-scenes look into the often vicious and high-stakes business
of selling software to the world's largest businesses and governments.
The revelations have added a note of drama to the normally arcane world
of business software.

The testimony from customers and tech executives has provided intimate
details about aggressive sales tactics by software suppliers -- in some
cases attacking rivals and offering customers discounts close to 100
percent. And it has painted an often unflattering picture of suppliers
and customers trying to manipulate each other over multimillion-dollar
deals.

``It does bring out clearly that there is really cutthroat competition
in this business,'' said Paul Hamerman, a vice president at Forrester
Research. ``And these vendors pull out all the stops to win a deal.''

The Justice Department is trying to block Oracle's $7.7 billion hostile
takeover bid for PeopleSoft, arguing it would reduce from three to two
the number of companies that sell human resource and financial software
to the largest customers. Oracle argues that the government has defined
the market too narrowly and that customers have plenty of options.

On Monday, the government presented its third economic expert of the
trial, Preston McAfee, a professor of the California Institute of
Technology, who testified that if PeopleSoft were to disappear, prices
for large business software customers would rise anywhere from 13
percent to 26 percent. ``Competition with PeopleSoft caused Oracle to
lower its prices,'' McAfee said.

It's clear that in many cases, the Big 3 of business software -- SAP of
Germany, PeopleSoft and Oracle -- compete against each other for a
handful of customers.

Perhaps the most telling evidence of this competition are thousands of
Oracle customer discount forms introduced by the Justice Department.
When an Oracle salesperson wants to offer a significant discount, he or
she must fill out forms seeking approval from bosses and detailing the
nature of the deal and the competition.

When trying to sell Oracle's human resource software to Teradyne, an
Oracle salesman wanted an 83 percent discount to win the deal. ``I am
requesting a relatively deep discount given the level of desperation at
[PeopleSoft], and the un-natural acts they are committing in the
field,'' he wrote.

At GAF Materials, Oracle was again squaring off against PeopleSoft when
a salesman requested approval for an 85 percent discount. PeopleSoft CEO
Craig Conway was apparently trying to get the company to delay its
purchase until June -- after the end of Oracle's fiscal year.

``We're in a head to head battle with PeopleSoft,'' the Oracle salesman
wrote. ``Craig Conway is calling in to the account to try to delay the
decision past 5/31, and have gotten ultra aggressive on the price and
discount to win the business. . . . Oracle account team and [PeopleSoft]
account team spent the entire day in the customer's office on 5/28
bidding and counterbidding against each other.''

For its part, Oracle turned up the pressure in March 2003 when its
salespeople launched a ``PeopleSoft Attack'' campaign. Oracle even set
up a ``PeopleSoft Competitive Help Desk'' for its salespeople to call
and get advice on sales tactics.

In a 100-page PowerPoint presentation submitted as evidence in the
trial, Oracle executives tried to give salespeople new ammunition to use
against PeopleSoft. First, the presentation outlined what Oracle
considered to be dirty tricks from PeopleSoft, such as handing out
doctored analyst reports, negative references and hiring former Oracle
managers and salespeople.

``PeopleSoft has no magical product, they have bugs, product
deficiencies, demo disasters, resource and morale issues, account
losses, and horror stories in the press to deal with,'' the presentation
said. ``Just like we do.''

Oracle urged its salespeople to ``lay land mines and undermine
PeopleSoft's credibility.''

They should try to create ``FUD'' -- fear, uncertainty and doubt --
about PeopleSoft's pricing and ``scare'' customers over its products'
lack of functions...... .

Nov 12 '05 #89


Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:
DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.

"capabiliti es"?

Yes.
DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the most
basic security for an rdmbs).

Really? How?


Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.
DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.

And?


And what?


Larry Edelstein

Nov 12 '05 #90

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