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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11617
> > Oh, I think 1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user is a lot less
expensive than Oracle (even after any necessary extender is added on). And a lot less expensive than you thought.


If you do then answer this question ... how many "additional users" are
there on the World Wide Web?

If you were correct ... I'd think the written quote I have on my desk
would reflect it ... sad to say that is not the case. The difference
between the two quotes wouldn't buy me a week's worth a dinners at a
decent restaurant.

--
Daniel Morgan


I think you missed the part where I explained that. There is a feature in
DB2 which allows applications to share connections, so you can limit the
number of simultaneous DB2 connections to 5 (5 are included in the
$1,211.00) regardless of how many actual users are on the system connected
to the application. In this situation, DB2 just reuses the same connection.
Any users over the 5 licenses that come with the $1,211.00 (or whatever
number of extra licenses that are purchased) would just wait for a running
DB2 process to finish and then execute.

If you want an unlimited number of connections, then you can purchase the
DB2 Workstation Server Edition Unlimited Edition, which charges on a CPU
basis (I don't have pricing for that) rather than number of simultaneous DB2
connections.

So be careful and don't confuse the number of users connected to an
application and the number of simultaneous DB2 connections needed.
Nov 12 '05 #71
Actually partitioning (DB2 UDB for LUW calls is organization to curb
confusion) of a table is orthogonal to partitioning of the database.
Let's use multi-dimensional clustering (MDC) as one example of
"organizati on" since it is supported in DB2 UDB for LUW at present.
MDC is supported in DB2 + DPF. What happens is that first the table is
hash partitioned across the database partitions, then MDC kicks in and
clusters the data in extends (which are a subdivision of a tablespace).
Now, you can add "range partitioning" or "fragmented tables" to that and
you end up with a hierarchie.
First comes database partitioning, then comes range partitioning and
finally multidimensiona l clustering.

I'm not certain if adding anny other partitioning but hash on the
database level is a good idea. It invites data skew and would be a
maintenance nightmare to add more database partitions.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #72
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 21/06/2004 9:42 PM:

"organizati on" since it is supported in DB2 UDB for LUW at present.
MDC is supported in DB2 + DPF. What happens is that first the table is
Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?

I'm not certain if adding anny other partitioning but hash on the
database level is a good idea. It invites data skew and would be a
maintenance nightmare to add more database partitions.


Only if you implement it as an add-on option...

I get extremely worried everytime I hear the word "partitioni ng"
mixed up with "clustering " and "databases" .

Rather than the simple word "table". The reason for this worry is
that one thing is database clustering, the other (and completely
different one) is object partitioning. The two should never be
mixed under the penalty of obfuscation. Let's not go into
index partitioning and optimization across multiple nodes.

Last time I looked, adding a partition to a table in Oracle
was a simple SQL statement that can be run without
affecting other users of said table. Same goes for dropping
a partition. Both tables and indexes work the same way.
None of that multi-whatever clustering, orthogonal or not, or
multiple databases: single instance is plenty enough (single
license, no clustering add-ons).

And if it is not a hash partition, (a date range partition, for
example) it is if anything easier. Which makes it extremely easy
to implement very large "rolling date" transaction tables in a
single database instance . Since V8.0, BTW. MOL 1997.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #73
"Mark A" <no****@switchb oard.net> wrote in message news:<Vr******* *********@news. uswest.net>...
If you want an unlimited number of connections, then you can purchase the
DB2 Workstation Server Edition Unlimited Edition, which charges on a CPU
basis (I don't have pricing for that) rather than number of simultaneous DB2
connections.


I think this product is about $7500/CPU. Not sure if you need any
extenders at all - since limited text search is already available
within the base product. So, about $30k total plus HACMP would do it.

Personally, I have never used a db2 extender, and as a rule avoid all
database extensions (whether oracle, db2, or whatever). The idea of
using the nasty built-in ETL, content management, etc that comes with
either of those products gives me a sour stomach. Not just because of
the vendor lock-in either, the database vendor implementations are
usually bizarre.
Nov 12 '05 #74
DPF stands for "Database Partitioning Feature".
(Please don't shoot the messenger, I didn't invent the name)
You may know is as "EEE" (Extended Enterprise Edition) prior to V8.
It's scale-out and yes it is, at present, priced extra.

The point I was trying hard to make is that DPF and partitoned tables
are not comparable. It is nonsense to compare them.

Once partitioned tables ar eintroduced into DB2 they will of course we
easy to administer. With or without DPF being present.

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #75
Ian
Noons wrote:
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 21/06/2004 9:42 PM:

"organizati on" since it is supported in DB2 UDB for LUW at present.
MDC is supported in DB2 + DPF. What happens is that first the table is

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


You mean like every Oracle option? According to the Oracle E-Business
Global Price List (http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/ePLext.pdf),
the following features are separately priced options for Oracle Enterprise
Edition:

Real Application Clusters
Partitioning
OLAP
Data Mining
Spatial
Advanced Security
Label Security

I was suprised to learn that (range/list) partitioning costs extra on
Oracle.

This is no different than DB2. DB2 UDB ESE has some add-on cost options,
too:

Database Partitioning Feature
Net Search Extender
Spatial Extender
Intelligent Miner
Cube Views
OLAP Server


So, what's your point?

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nov 12 '05 #76
Mark A wrote:
Oh, I think 1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user is a lot less
expensive than Oracle (even after any necessary extender is added on).
And a
lot less expensive than you thought.
If you do then answer this question ... how many "additional users" are
there on the World Wide Web?

If you were correct ... I'd think the written quote I have on my desk
would reflect it ... sad to say that is not the case. The difference
between the two quotes wouldn't buy me a week's worth a dinners at a
decent restaurant.

--
Daniel Morgan

I think you missed the part where I explained that. There is a feature in
DB2 which allows applications to share connections, so you can limit the
number of simultaneous DB2 connections to 5 (5 are included in the
$1,211.00) regardless of how many actual users are on the system connected
to the application. In this situation, DB2 just reuses the same connection.


Everybody offers connection pooling. Oracle offers the same 5 user
license for less ($149.00 per connected user for SE1 and $300 per
connected user for SE).

You don't connect the WWW to a per-user license unless you are either
crazy or in desparate need of legal counsel.
Any users over the 5 licenses that come with the $1,211.00 (or whatever
number of extra licenses that are purchased) would just wait for a running
DB2 process to finish and then execute.
This is a web application. 'Wait' would equate to 'bankruptcy'.
If you want an unlimited number of connections, then you can purchase the
DB2 Workstation Server Edition Unlimited Edition, which charges on a CPU
basis (I don't have pricing for that) rather than number of simultaneous DB2
connections.

So be careful and don't confuse the number of users connected to an
application and the number of simultaneous DB2 connections needed.


The sales reps from IBM know all of this. So do I. So does the person
from purchasing assigned to this. In the end the difference between the
pricing ... Oracle vs DB2 ... was inconsequential .

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #77
Noons wrote:
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 21/06/2004 9:42 PM:

"organizati on" since it is supported in DB2 UDB for LUW at present.
MDC is supported in DB2 + DPF. What happens is that first the table is

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


That's what it is. Installed by default but you can not use it without
paying an additional licensing fee.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #78
Ian <ia*****@mobile audio.com> wrote in message news:<40******* ***@corp.newsgr oups.com>...
Noons wrote:
Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


You mean like every Oracle option? According to the Oracle E-Business
Global Price List (http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/ePLext.pdf)

Aha, well - the point is that Oracle costs have dropped
*significantly* in the last four years, while DB2 hasn't.

For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost. Now that isn't
entirely fair, since there are ways to bump up that cost - even as
high as $35k if you put everything in. That's still less than 50% of
the cost of oracle (and oracle could also bump up its price with that
long list of add-ons). So, DB2 is sounding really inexpensive here -
certainly not way more expensive as Daniel asserted.

However, keep in mind that this is a huge drop in price for oracle.
Imagine if it still used its power-unit licensing cost - and you were
going to use four 3 ghz CPUs. That would cost about $300k / CPU - or
about $1.2m for to fully license the quad. Based upon this - oracle
has dropped its price around 75% in four years!

Now, I'm not sure how DB2 UDB was licensed in 2000 - but I think it
was actually less than it is now. So, at the same time oracle has
dropped its price 75% db2 has raised its price 10% I believe (please
correct me on the older db2 prices).

So back to my original question - any one have tips on using
competitive pricing to drive oracle down to more competitive pricing?
Nov 12 '05 #79
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
Ian <ia*****@mobile audio.com> wrote in message news:<40******* ***@corp.newsgr oups.com>...
Noons wrote:
Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


You mean like every Oracle option? According to the Oracle E-Business
Global Price List (http://www.oracle.com/corporate/pricing/ePLext.pdf)


Aha, well - the point is that Oracle costs have dropped
*significantly* in the last four years, while DB2 hasn't.

For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost. Now that isn't
entirely fair, since there are ways to bump up that cost - even as
high as $35k if you put everything in. That's still less than 50% of
the cost of oracle (and oracle could also bump up its price with that
long list of add-ons). So, DB2 is sounding really inexpensive here -
certainly not way more expensive as Daniel asserted.

However, keep in mind that this is a huge drop in price for oracle.
Imagine if it still used its power-unit licensing cost - and you were
going to use four 3 ghz CPUs. That would cost about $300k / CPU - or
about $1.2m for to fully license the quad. Based upon this - oracle
has dropped its price around 75% in four years!

Now, I'm not sure how DB2 UDB was licensed in 2000 - but I think it
was actually less than it is now. So, at the same time oracle has
dropped its price 75% db2 has raised its price 10% I believe (please
correct me on the older db2 prices).

So back to my original question - any one have tips on using
competitive pricing to drive oracle down to more competitive pricing?


Not if you get your prices from a sales rep rather than from a web site.
Not even close.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #80

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