473,889 Members | 1,327 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11617
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<108774895 6.675560@yasure >...
I am having a hard time believing that based on the pricing I've seen.
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?

What I mean by equivalent systems is that you include ALL costs. Not
just the base database.

Because every time I have done the pricing DB2 has been more expensive.


Really? How do you configure db2 to get it more expensive than
oracle? The only time db2 really seems to become expensive is when a
project specifies UDB ESE and should be using workgroup. Then you can
find folks spending $25k+ / CPU when they only really need about $7k+
/ CPU.

Man, I remember the bad old days of the oracle power unit - when a
theoretical 4x1000 mhz smp server could cost you $400,000! At the
time I was reselling oracle and our solutions were all twisted up by
the database licensing costs - which forced us to come up with ways to
use minimum licensing even if we wanted additional boxes, etc. At
that time the equiv db2 solution was something like $80,000. Of
course, I liked oracle 8i quite a bit more than db2 5-6. But now that
we're comparing db2 8 to oracle 9-10, it seems that db2's simplicity
and cost structure is giving it an edge on some projects.

I know oracle was forced to really drop its prices - probably due to
dot-com collapses, and competition from db2. Any chance that the
oracle folks would "meet or beat" db2 prices? Maybe that's a good
strategy to get better pricing on my oracle projects?

Also - think we're going to see database prices continually dropping
now? I'm seeing a heck of a lot of projects shifting from oracle &
db2 to mysql & postrgesql. Now, the majority of these projects are
small & non-critical - but still, at the end of the day it has to be a
loss of revenue for the database players...
Nov 12 '05 #61
> Why do you think I have a lack of objectivity when you didn't respond to
the question I posed?

Here it is again in case you missed it:
>>Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
>>last year, that support this contention?


Do you have actual quotes to support your statement or are you just
making it all up because it is the answer you wish to be true?

Daniel Morgan


Daniel, I have not purchased any licenses of Oracle in the last year. In
general my previous experience has been that Oracle is definitely more
expensive than DB2, especially on UNIX platforms. Of course, in reaction to
their rapidly declining market share, Oracle may have slashed prices
recently.

But given your lack of knowledge about DB2 (for example, you thought DPF was
only available on UNIX), I don't really trust your ability to accurately
price a DB2 configuration.

I don't have any stake in which one is more expensive, so I don't have to
"wish" anything.
Nov 12 '05 #62
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<108774895 6.675560@yasure >...

I am having a hard time believing that based on the pricing I've seen.
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?

What I mean by equivalent systems is that you include ALL costs. Not
just the base database.

Because every time I have done the pricing DB2 has been more expensive.

Really? How do you configure db2 to get it more expensive than
oracle? The only time db2 really seems to become expensive is when a
project specifies UDB ESE and should be using workgroup. Then you can
find folks spending $25k+ / CPU when they only really need about $7k+
/ CPU.


Lets assume, as that is the subject of this thread, that they need
high security, range partitioning, high availability, and failover.
All things one would get in Oracle's EE? Lets further assume they need
an equivalent support agreement. Lets put both solutions on identical
hardware ... say Intel P4s with 4CPU and 8GB RAM with a NetApp 910
filer head and Linux EL AS 3 Update 2. And lets assume that the
application requires full text searches of documents such as PDFs. In
short ... the application I am pricing right now for a division of
a very large aerospace company. Can I do better with DB2?

If you think I can ... feel free to communicate that fact to a sales
rep. Because that is not consistent with the quotes I've received.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #63
Mark A wrote:
Why do you think I have a lack of objectivity when you didn't respond to
the question I posed?

Here it is again in case you missed it:
>>Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
>>last year, that support this contention?


Do you have actual quotes to support your statement or are you just
making it all up because it is the answer you wish to be true?

Daniel Morgan

Daniel, I have not purchased any licenses of Oracle in the last year. In
general my previous experience has been that Oracle is definitely more
expensive than DB2, especially on UNIX platforms. Of course, in reaction to
their rapidly declining market share, Oracle may have slashed prices
recently.

But given your lack of knowledge about DB2 (for example, you thought DPF was
only available on UNIX), I don't really trust your ability to accurately
price a DB2 configuration.

I don't have any stake in which one is more expensive, so I don't have to
"wish" anything.


And in the past I would have agreed with you: Not any more!

But I have written quotes on both current to within the last 60 days. So
I am not likely to be wrong. In fact I have it on good authority that
given a quote from IBM or Microsoft ... Oracle will match it or beat it.
I think like so much in this business ... the over-pricing of Oracle has
become mythology rather than reality.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #64
> Lets assume, as that is the subject of this thread, that they need
high security, range partitioning, high availability, and failover.
All things one would get in Oracle's EE? Lets further assume they need
an equivalent support agreement. Lets put both solutions on identical
hardware ... say Intel P4s with 4CPU and 8GB RAM with a NetApp 910
filer head and Linux EL AS 3 Update 2. And lets assume that the
application requires full text searches of documents such as PDFs. In
short ... the application I am pricing right now for a division of
a very large aerospace company. Can I do better with DB2?

If you think I can ... feel free to communicate that fact to a sales
rep. Because that is not consistent with the quotes I've received.

--
Daniel Morgan


Since I am not an IBM marketing person, I cannot speak definitively on the
configuration pricing.

However, for range partitioning (UNION ALL VIEWS) neither DB2 ESE nor Data
Partitioning Feature is needed. DB2 Workgroup Server Edition (which includes
5 connections) or possibly the WSE Unlimited Edition (which charges for per
processor instead of number of connections) will work very well with
intra-partition parallelism using 4 CPU's on such a configuration.

The WSE can be deployed in Linux, UNIX, and Windows environments on systems
with up to 4 CPU's.

Again, I am not an IBM employee, but a search of the IBM site reveals that
DB2 UDB WORKGROUP SERVER EDITION SERVER LIC+SW MAINT 12 MO (D5B7FLL) for 5
users is $1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user.

Most middleware and web applications can be used in such a way that there a
very large number of simultaneous users, but only a limited number of DB2
connections being used at a given time.

However, if an unlimited number of DB2 connections is necessary, an
unlimited user license (Unlimited Edition) is available and the price is
based on number of CPU's. I don't have the price of that.

If any of the following complimentary products are needed I believe there
may be an extra charge.

Net Search Extender
DB2 Spatial Extender
Audio, Image, and Video Extenders
WebSphere MQ
Nov 12 '05 #65
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087793552 .594682@yasure. ..
And in the past I would have agreed with you: Not any more!

But I have written quotes on both current to within the last 60 days. So
I am not likely to be wrong. In fact I have it on good authority that
given a quote from IBM or Microsoft ... Oracle will match it or beat it.
I think like so much in this business ... the over-pricing of Oracle has
become mythology rather than reality.

--
Daniel Morgan


As I stated, Oracle is loosing market share rapidly, especially on Windows,
so they are slashing prices. The only other explanation is that they are
really stupid to lower their prices so much (I don't think anyone would said
that Oracle execs are stupid).
Nov 12 '05 #66
Mark A wrote:
Lets assume, as that is the subject of this thread, that they need
high security, range partitioning, high availability, and failover.
All things one would get in Oracle's EE? Lets further assume they need
an equivalent support agreement. Lets put both solutions on identical
hardware ... say Intel P4s with 4CPU and 8GB RAM with a NetApp 910
filer head and Linux EL AS 3 Update 2. And lets assume that the
application requires full text searches of documents such as PDFs. In
short ... the application I am pricing right now for a division of
a very large aerospace company. Can I do better with DB2?

If you think I can ... feel free to communicate that fact to a sales
rep. Because that is not consistent with the quotes I've received.

--
Daniel Morgan

Since I am not an IBM marketing person, I cannot speak definitively on the
configuration pricing.

However, for range partitioning (UNION ALL VIEWS) neither DB2 ESE nor Data
Partitioning Feature is needed. DB2 Workgroup Server Edition (which includes
5 connections) or possibly the WSE Unlimited Edition (which charges for per
processor instead of number of connections) will work very well with
intra-partition parallelism using 4 CPU's on such a configuration.

The WSE can be deployed in Linux, UNIX, and Windows environments on systems
with up to 4 CPU's.

Again, I am not an IBM employee, but a search of the IBM site reveals that
DB2 UDB WORKGROUP SERVER EDITION SERVER LIC+SW MAINT 12 MO (D5B7FLL) for 5
users is $1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user.

Most middleware and web applications can be used in such a way that there a
very large number of simultaneous users, but only a limited number of DB2
connections being used at a given time.

However, if an unlimited number of DB2 connections is necessary, an
unlimited user license (Unlimited Edition) is available and the price is
based on number of CPU's. I don't have the price of that.

If any of the following complimentary products are needed I believe there
may be an extra charge.

Net Search Extender
DB2 Spatial Extender
Audio, Image, and Video Extenders
WebSphere MQ


Exactly my point. Pricing must be based upon equivalent capabilities.
Not some simplistic jingoism such as vendor A's EE edition vs. vendor
B's EE edition.

The only thing that matters is when specific specifications are put on
the table and two or more vendors are asked to submit written bids for
the business. And that is where mythology must give way to the facts.

We are here for technology ... not one of us, as far as I know, gets
even a dime in commission no matter who sells the most licenses next
quarter. I know I certainly don't so I don't care. Lets not make
statements about "more expensive" vs "less expensive" unless we are
willing to put both the system specifications and the vendor's written
quotes up for comparison. Both vendors are charging as much as they
think they can given market conditions. And not one penny less. And
if I were a stockholder (which I am not) I would expect nothing less.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #67
Mark A wrote:
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087793552 .594682@yasure. ..
And in the past I would have agreed with you: Not any more!

But I have written quotes on both current to within the last 60 days. So
I am not likely to be wrong. In fact I have it on good authority that
given a quote from IBM or Microsoft ... Oracle will match it or beat it.
I think like so much in this business ... the over-pricing of Oracle has
become mythology rather than reality.

--
Daniel Morgan

As I stated, Oracle is loosing market share rapidly, especially on Windows,
so they are slashing prices. The only other explanation is that they are
really stupid to lower their prices so much (I don't think anyone would said
that Oracle execs are stupid).


I don't see the numbers and don't care about the numbers ... but the
other reason Oracle might be slashing prices is that Microsoft is trying
to clone Oracle's multiversion technology in Yukon and Oracle might
want a bigger marketshare before facing a 'real' competitor on that
operating system.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #68
> Exactly my point. Pricing must be based upon equivalent capabilities.
Not some simplistic jingoism such as vendor A's EE edition vs. vendor
B's EE edition.

The only thing that matters is when specific specifications are put on
the table and two or more vendors are asked to submit written bids for
the business. And that is where mythology must give way to the facts.

We are here for technology ... not one of us, as far as I know, gets
even a dime in commission no matter who sells the most licenses next
quarter. I know I certainly don't so I don't care. Lets not make
statements about "more expensive" vs "less expensive" unless we are
willing to put both the system specifications and the vendor's written
quotes up for comparison. Both vendors are charging as much as they
think they can given market conditions. And not one penny less. And
if I were a stockholder (which I am not) I would expect nothing less.

--
Daniel Morgan


Oh, I think 1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user is a lot less
expensive than Oracle (even after any necessary extender is added on). And a
lot less expensive than you thought.
Nov 12 '05 #69
Mark A wrote:
Exactly my point. Pricing must be based upon equivalent capabilities.
Not some simplistic jingoism such as vendor A's EE edition vs. vendor
B's EE edition.

The only thing that matters is when specific specifications are put on
the table and two or more vendors are asked to submit written bids for
the business. And that is where mythology must give way to the facts.

We are here for technology ... not one of us, as far as I know, gets
even a dime in commission no matter who sells the most licenses next
quarter. I know I certainly don't so I don't care. Lets not make
statements about "more expensive" vs "less expensive" unless we are
willing to put both the system specifications and the vendor's written
quotes up for comparison. Both vendors are charging as much as they
think they can given market conditions. And not one penny less. And
if I were a stockholder (which I am not) I would expect nothing less.

--
Daniel Morgan

Oh, I think 1,211.00 plus $311.00 per additional user is a lot less
expensive than Oracle (even after any necessary extender is added on). And a
lot less expensive than you thought.


If you do then answer this question ... how many "additional users" are
there on the World Wide Web?

If you were correct ... I'd think the written quote I have on my desk
would reflect it ... sad to say that is not the case. The difference
between the two quotes wouldn't buy me a week's worth a dinners at a
decent restaurant.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #70

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

6
3006
by: Mica Cooper | last post by:
Hi, I have a series of Select menus on a page. I am trying to allow the user to click on the Select title and have it popup a help window. This works fine with the following code except that all the Select choices are lost. <A HREF="javascript:location='menu.jsp';window.open('menuhelp.jsp?menuID=5','me nuhelp',)">MenuTitle</A> I saw an example of a popup on a website that did not lose the menu choices.
4
1324
by: frank | last post by:
Hi there. Before anyone gripes about cross posting, Ill say upfront that I just posted this message to am SQL server newsgroup because I want feedback from database developers as well as asp coders... I want to create a web based software rating database. I have a number of objectives that I would need to achieve to make this a useable tool and some are not easy figure out considering my begginning level of db and asp knowledge. I am...
6
1739
by: apngss | last post by:
When an application needs to get information from another machine over the network, how many distributed computing choices out there? Here are the choices I know of, classifying by different programming languages HTTP (any??) RPC (C, C++) ..NET (Microsoft)
6
1537
by: Kennedy_f | last post by:
I did better in terms of score on this one than 291, but I found it much harder. Wordings of questions are difficult like the rest, but the DNS and CA scenarios were very tough to figure out. Take your time on the questions. I used uecrtify exam simulation. Make sure you know exactly what they are asking for and think it through. You will not pass unless you have experience with the product and have done a lot of prep work. Read the...
9
1692
by: Rhino | last post by:
How hard (and desireable) would it be to give the user certain choices when it comes to printing web pages? The pages on my site use colours and pictures and contain an imbedded menu, among other things. Now, I could make certain assumptions on the user's behalf, such as making the background white and the text black, suppressing the menu from the printed page, and even suppressing the printing of the pictures if they are merely...
2
1578
by: Tedros.G | last post by:
Okay this is a slightly tricky one for us newbies, butI'm guessing it'll be breeze for ou experts! Problem: You recieve a xml message which conforms to a common schema. Everything is great and your clients (who send you their data based on this agreed schema), do everything works as agreed and planned. Over the next few months a few clients suddenly decide to add extra nodes, therby breaking the schema validation. Then another client...
4
1917
by: wideasleep | last post by:
Hello everyone, I am looking for a way to remove choices from cascading combo boxes as each selection is made. Here's how this is laid out. The initial combo box is STAGE and it will have choices STAGE1, STAGE2, STAGE3 and that will cascade to the CODE combo box. The CODE selections will also have lb. amounts for each code item. For example purposes here's the layout for the STAGE choices in the CODE combo box and use your imagination...
5
2050
by: vajra1987 | last post by:
Hello everybody I am working on a Website built on JSP and Servlets . one of the features of the site is to give user the chance to subscribe to different newsletters under different categories. So for example, user1 surfs to the page which displays category sport and under that some options (check boxes) and he can choose zero or more, and he clicks to add the next catetory options , for example entertainement. I am new at Java and...
1
1531
by: jej1216 | last post by:
Background: I have an PHP form that inserts data into a MySQL DB, and it works. Severity of Incident: <select name="severity" size="1"> <option value="">Select a Severity Option</option> <option value="Level1 - No Obvious Harm">Level 1 - No Obvious Harm</option> <option value="Level2 - Non-permanent Harm">Level 2 - Non-permanent Harm</option> <option value="Level3 - Semi-permanent Harm">Level 3 - Semi-permanent Harm</option> <option...
0
11188
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
0
10789
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
1
10889
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
10441
tracyyun
by: tracyyun | last post by:
Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
0
9606
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
1
7993
isladogs
by: isladogs | last post by:
The next Access Europe User Group meeting will be on Wednesday 1 May 2024 starting at 18:00 UK time (6PM UTC+1) and finishing by 19:30 (7.30PM). In this session, we are pleased to welcome a new presenter, Adolph Dupré who will be discussing some powerful techniques for using class modules. He will explain when you may want to use classes instead of User Defined Types (UDT). For example, to manage the data in unbound forms. Adolph will...
0
5828
by: TSSRALBI | last post by:
Hello I'm a network technician in training and I need your help. I am currently learning how to create and manage the different types of VPNs and I have a question about LAN-to-LAN VPNs. The last exercise I practiced was to create a LAN-to-LAN VPN between two Pfsense firewalls, by using IPSEC protocols. I succeeded, with both firewalls in the same network. But I'm wondering if it's possible to do the same thing, with 2 Pfsense firewalls...
2
4251
muto222
by: muto222 | last post by:
How can i add a mobile payment intergratation into php mysql website.
3
3255
bsmnconsultancy
by: bsmnconsultancy | last post by:
In today's digital era, a well-designed website is crucial for businesses looking to succeed. Whether you're a small business owner or a large corporation in Toronto, having a strong online presence can significantly impact your brand's success. BSMN Consultancy, a leader in Website Development in Toronto offers valuable insights into creating effective websites that not only look great but also perform exceptionally well. In this comprehensive...

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.