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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11594
"Sy Borg" <bo*********@ya hoo.ca> wrote in message
news:b2******** *************** **@posting.goog le.com...
Thanks very much everyone. This has been very helpful to us. We have
realized very quickly that we were going down the wrong path in trying
to figure out the right database for our customers upfront. Our client
apps work with the databases via genreic dbms connectivity apis and
sql and, we can easily allow our apps to pick either one of the
datasources (don't mind the extra development effort on the oracle and
db2 sql).
The ultimate choice of the DBMS platform will perhaps be best made by
our customers (who will have a much better understanding of their dbms
TCO based on existing infrastructure) .

~Sy


Good idea. There is not as much difference between the major DBMS products
as the vendors would like you to believe. Stick to standard SQL and keep
away from the proprietary extensions.
Nov 12 '05 #51
Mark A wrote:

<snip>
since both DB2 for z/OS and Oracle only support share-everything
parallelism, that is what they both have range partitioning instead of hash
partitioning (hash partitioning is designed to split the load evenly across
all partitions).

Oracle also has hash partitioning, for the same reasons. Oracle also has
list partitioning, and indeed range-hash and list-hash.
Having actually worked on such applications, I can say that it can be done
quite well with DB2 UNION ALL views. If Oracle is slightly better in that
respect with range partitioning, then fine. I don't think it is deal
breaker. The use of range partitioning comes at a big cost, especially when
trying to balance a load across multiple partitions for true parallel
operations that are scalable. With range partitioning, one gets a lot of hot
spots on a particular partition (which is usually the most current monthly
or yearly data).


And hence the support in Oracle for hash, and even better, range-hash.
Do you actually know much about Oracle's partitioning - it sounds like
you think Oracle does what DB2 OS/390 does. In fact, Oracle's
partitioning capabilities are more like what is in Informix XPS.
Nov 12 '05 #52

"Mark Townsend" <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message
news:40******** ******@comcast. net...
Mark A wrote:

<snip>
since both DB2 for z/OS and Oracle only support share-everything
parallelism, that is what they both have range partitioning instead of hash partitioning (hash partitioning is designed to split the load evenly across all partitions).

Oracle also has hash partitioning, for the same reasons. Oracle also has
list partitioning, and indeed range-hash and list-hash.


Minor point, but actually Oracle 9i has range-list and range-hash composite
partitioning, but not list-hash.

Regards
HJR
Nov 12 '05 #53
> > Oracle also has hash partitioning, for the same reasons. Oracle also has
list partitioning, and indeed range-hash and list-hash.
Minor point, but actually Oracle 9i has range-list and range-hash

composite partitioning, but not list-hash.

Regards
HJR

Careful, you are talking to an Oracle marketing rep.
Nov 12 '05 #54
Mark A wrote:
Yes DPF is an additional cost on top of the ESE license. Even so, it is less
expensive than an equivalent Oracle system.


More or less no disagreements right up to here. A few nits to pick but
they can wait. But how can an additional cost be less expensive than
included in the standard edition license?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #55
Serge Rielau wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Mark A wrote:
Please correct me if you think I am incorrect. But losing a single node
with RAC can not deprive users of access to data. The system continues
to run with no effect other than the loss of a few CPU's and their
associated RAM.

With DB2 I could lose a node and either lose access to some of the data
or, worst case, lose the entire database application.
Daniel, you are still measures with two metrics :-)
When an Oracle RAC node goes down it has information that is needed by
the other nodes. All the remaining nodes are affected by that during
this timeframe where RAC gets its balance back.
Which is sub-second. So what's the point?
I take your word, that this is in the second ballpark.
Sub-second in my lab. And I'm not even using fast equipment like fiber.
Now in a DB2 + DPF scenario, if DB Partition goes down all clients
connected to that partition get kicked.
Which it would seem to me is a substantial consideration.
All other clients will not get kicked and they may or may not feel that
a partition went down, depending on whether the downed partition is
needed or not.
And what are the chances that it might be needed unless you hand coded
for a specific number of partitions and distribution of data which would
send you back to your source code everytime you added or removed a node.
Do you mean loose the database permanently or just until a fallover
can be
accomplished or the hardware repaired? I don't know of a situation where
data would be lost permanently unless there was a multiple disk failure
affecting both the data and logs.


I meant only until it is brought back on-line. DB2 is far more robust to
become ashes ... just toast. ;-)


Right, so now the question is the race against time to get the down
partition up again. On the same hardware, different hardware, doesn't
matter.


Except that with RAC the SA and DBA could just ignore it until the
following morning as no loss of service is involved.
Just to wrap up:
The point being made is:
1. DB2 + DPF for near unlimited scale out
(DB2 supports 999 DB Partitions,
there >100 partition installation out there)
2. DB2 + DPF _supports_ HA solutions if needed
3. DB2 + DPF is not an HA feature and never was meant to be one.
Thanks.
My personal toughts on RAC are:
Oracle RAC is an HA feature with neat limited scale out ability
Oracle RAC has yet to proof how far it can scale out.
64 nodes with 9i and 128 nodes with 10g is the largest of which I am
personally aware.
I don't believe that near linear scale out can be achieved without a
divide and conquer strategy of sorts. That strategy requires schema/app
changes.
I do ... but then I've been working with it.

Cheers
Serge


--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #56
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087744953 .74103@yasure.. .
Mark A wrote:
Yes DPF is an additional cost on top of the ESE license. Even so, it is less expensive than an equivalent Oracle system.


More or less no disagreements right up to here. A few nits to pick but
they can wait. But how can an additional cost be less expensive than
included in the standard edition license?

--
Daniel Morgan


First, Oracle is more expensive than DB2.

I believe that both DB2 and Oracle are usually priced by the number of CPU's
for parallel versions. I know I paid extra a few years ago for the parallel
version of Oracle over and above the standard version (but I don't remember
the details).
Nov 12 '05 #57
Mark A wrote:
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087744953 .74103@yasure.. .
Mark A wrote:

Yes DPF is an additional cost on top of the ESE license. Even so, it is
less
expensive than an equivalent Oracle system.


More or less no disagreements right up to here. A few nits to pick but
they can wait. But how can an additional cost be less expensive than
included in the standard edition license?

--
Daniel Morgan

First, Oracle is more expensive than DB2.


I am having a hard time believing that based on the pricing I've seen.
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?

What I mean by equivalent systems is that you include ALL costs. Not
just the base database.

Because every time I have done the pricing DB2 has been more expensive.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #58
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087748956 .675560@yasure. ..
First, Oracle is more expensive than DB2.


I am having a hard time believing that based on the pricing I've seen.
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?

What I mean by equivalent systems is that you include ALL costs. Not
just the base database.

Because every time I have done the pricing DB2 has been more expensive.

--
Daniel Morgan


I have a hard time believing you are objective.

You continuously are confusing 2 things (similar to the way you confused
share-everything with share-nothing):

- multiple node parallel database
- multiple nodes for failover capability for continuous operation

Granted that Oracle is ahead of DB2 in the second of these (failover),
although some important enhancement in the next DB2 release will address
some of these issues.

But not everyone needs sub-second failover. Given today's hot swap RAID-5
and dual power supply systems, node failures are very unlikely. The vast
majority of large parallel systems are used for decision support where
sub-second failover is not a requirement.

But linear scalability, total cost of ownership, and ease of use are
important, and that is why is DB2 ESE with DPF is one of the best parallel
solutions on the market.
Nov 12 '05 #59
Mark A wrote:
"Daniel Morgan" <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message
news:1087748956 .675560@yasure. ..
First, Oracle is more expensive than DB2.


I am having a hard time believing that based on the pricing I've seen.
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?

What I mean by equivalent systems is that you include ALL costs. Not
just the base database.

Because every time I have done the pricing DB2 has been more expensive.

--
Daniel Morgan

I have a hard time believing you are objective.

You continuously are confusing 2 things (similar to the way you confused
share-everything with share-nothing):

- multiple node parallel database
- multiple nodes for failover capability for continuous operation

Granted that Oracle is ahead of DB2 in the second of these (failover),
although some important enhancement in the next DB2 release will address
some of these issues.

But not everyone needs sub-second failover. Given today's hot swap RAID-5
and dual power supply systems, node failures are very unlikely. The vast
majority of large parallel systems are used for decision support where
sub-second failover is not a requirement.

But linear scalability, total cost of ownership, and ease of use are
important, and that is why is DB2 ESE with DPF is one of the best parallel
solutions on the market.


Why do you think I have a lack of objectivity when you didn't respond to
the question I posed?

Here it is again in case you missed it:
Do you have any actual quotes on equivalent systems, priced within the
last year, that support this contention?


Do you have actual quotes to support your statement or are you just
making it all up because it is the answer you wish to be true?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #60

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