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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11597
Rahul Kitchlu apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 12:32 PM:

Better yet: can I login to the external security AND the database
as a member of group "USERS", get a SP to check who I am and what I
want to do and then give my logon the db group "OZZIE" and its rights
according to the contents of a config table?

GRANT can be embedded in an application program. Don't know for sure if
this can be done ... perhaps someone from Toronto knows.

Authentication of external users is possible, you can even write your own
user exits to acheive this.
Authorization happens in the engine through grant statements. Yes you can
embed grants in any application sql. Also, usually static sql coming from
applications uses package level security.


There must be some confusion here. I said: "give my logon the db group
and its rights". I didn't say: "create these rights on the fly".
I'm assuming there is a set of rights associated with a group already.
I'm also assuming my logon id has been included in two groups. And when
I logon, I want to have one group as the default, then change it to
another. Which effectively may change what I can look at.

If there is still confusion.. think of it as this..
I am not at all confused. What I want is a reply that
is SPECIFIC to the LUW UDB environment. Couldn't care less
of what is available in others. This spurred from the fact
that in the past I've had all sorts of suggestions of
features to use that do not exist in all environments,
but are still mentioned as if they applied across the board.

DB2 on distributed platforms is UDB .. rest is Host DB2.. this again is not
too far from what oracle does.. fyi.


Not really. I never noticed much of a difference between
Oracle runtime environments in a multitude of OSs.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #151
Mark Townsend apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 1:08 PM:

Noons - I'm confused. Partitioning has always been a chargeable option,
from when it was introduced way back in Oracle 8. Are we at
cross-purposes here ?


No. And I'm confused as well as everywhere I used it, it
was included as part of the standard EE license.
What can I say: I was lucky?

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #152
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 4:00 AM:
Essentially what you see is a partitioned table. It just has different
lingo attached to it. But for all the optimizer cares it is.
This makes the difference between a partitioned table and a partitioned
view the administration which's importance differs from case to case.


Ah OK. Very much like the union-partitions in Oracle V7.
With updates thrown in. That is cool.
Again: so how do you optimize a UNION ALL across federated databases?


sing information constarints/where predicates it is easy to do branch
elimination with a therem prover or at least prove the partitioning
property. The result is that only relevant remote tables will be queried
which, in a federated environment, is a big deal.


You bet. Does the optimizer do that? I mean, I'm in node A, my
data lives in node B, what does it do with my query? Ship it to node
B for execution there, or get data from node B into A then run it, or
a mix of the above? What if my query needs data from both A and B?
Is it both indexes and data or just indexes that get branch-eliminated?

All these are relatively well handled by Oracle in partitions with SMP,
as well as partitions with RAC. There are also a heap of alternatives
on how to distribute the load across CPUs in both SMP and RAC. I'm
just curious how UDB would handle its federated situations.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #153
You cannot compare federated with RAC or SMP.
Federated databses are not federated because it's nice or because it's
preferred technology.
They are federated is by necessity.
If you take a look at health care, a lot of the data cannot be
replicated to a central store for leagal reason. It may or may not be OK
to query the data directly (store it in the DBMS's cache) but copying
the the data to be stored persistently is a no-no.
So federation is all about coping with an imperfect world (from the
DBMS' point of view).

DB2 II can indeed push parts of the (optimized) query to the remote
side. It works not all that different from the shared nothing algorithms.
The difference is that instead of shipping "DB2 byte code" to the
database partition to be executed. DB2 II reverse engineers the remote
DBMS' SQL dialect and uses the remotes native client interfaces to pose
the query.
Doing a join between a Oracle and SQL Server can mean:
a) Pull the data to DB2 II , then join locally
b) Pull the data from SQL Server to DB2 II, push it to Oracle and join
on Oracle
c) Reverse from b)

To do this the DBMS has to know a fair bit about the remote DBMS
capabilities.
E.g. if DB2 II based it's decision on a hash-join costing but the remote
doesn't know what that is things go sour.

In a life sciences space there often isn't even any choice. The remote
side (which may not be relational to start with) may have certain
functions (like detetcing a gene-sequence match) which DB2 II does not
have and which can-not or must not (IP) implemented in DB2.
In this case a fucntion mapping is provided to model teh foreing
function and DB2 II knows that any plan must involve pushing the foreign
function to it's native source.

The remise in this case is that the user does not need to worry about
learning the remote's interfaces or mix query languages.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #154
I suppose I was quite ambigeous in that post.
I wans't referring to SMP hardware. I was referring to SMP parallelism
within a user connection. "intra-query"
This is a different way of exploiting SMP than say, for concurrency to
scale number of users.
I can't talk for Oracle of course, but DB2 runs with "intra-query"
parallelism OFF in TPC-C and to the best of my knowledge (which is
limited) this is true for many real world OLTP applications using DB2.

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #155
"Serge Rielau" <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:cb******** **@hanover.toro lab.ibm.com...
You cannot compare federated with RAC or SMP.
Federated databses are not federated because it's nice or because it's
preferred technology.
They are federated is by necessity.
If you take a look at health care, a lot of the data cannot be
replicated to a central store for leagal reason. It may or may not be OK
to query the data directly (store it in the DBMS's cache) but copying
the the data to be stored persistently is a no-no.
So federation is all about coping with an imperfect world (from the
DBMS' point of view).

DB2 II can indeed push parts of the (optimized) query to the remote
side. It works not all that different from the shared nothing algorithms.
The difference is that instead of shipping "DB2 byte code" to the
database partition to be executed. DB2 II reverse engineers the remote
DBMS' SQL dialect and uses the remotes native client interfaces to pose
the query.
Doing a join between a Oracle and SQL Server can mean:
a) Pull the data to DB2 II , then join locally
b) Pull the data from SQL Server to DB2 II, push it to Oracle and join
on Oracle
c) Reverse from b)

To do this the DBMS has to know a fair bit about the remote DBMS
capabilities.
E.g. if DB2 II based it's decision on a hash-join costing but the remote
doesn't know what that is things go sour.

In a life sciences space there often isn't even any choice. The remote
side (which may not be relational to start with) may have certain
functions (like detetcing a gene-sequence match) which DB2 II does not
have and which can-not or must not (IP) implemented in DB2.
In this case a fucntion mapping is provided to model teh foreing
function and DB2 II knows that any plan must involve pushing the foreign
function to it's native source.

The remise in this case is that the user does not need to worry about
learning the remote's interfaces or mix query languages.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab


Did I miss something? What is DB2 II?
Nov 12 '05 #156
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 10:43 PM:
In a life sciences space there often isn't even any choice. The remote
side (which may not be relational to start with) may have certain
functions (like detetcing a gene-sequence match) which DB2 II does not
have and which can-not or must not (IP) implemented in DB2.
In this case a fucntion mapping is provided to model teh foreing
function and DB2 II knows that any plan must involve pushing the foreign
function to it's native source.


I see your point. Had a similar conversation with someone else
at lunch today. We both concluded that things like Corba then later
on XML, will have a role to play in getting all these impedance
matching problems solved. Basically, a way is needed to automate/
standardize these "function descriptions", isn't it? So that they
can be efficiently used by all dbs. Then the whole idea of a single
corporate data resource can really become reality.
Mind you: a LOT of work...

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #157
So ... I would assume that this means that instead of trying to point
out advantages of Oracle over DB2 (or vice-versa for that matter) that a
customer may or may not use or need, you would favor gathering customer
requirements for each customer and then making an assessment of which
database, DB2 or Oracle, can best meet the customer's requirements?

Larry Edelstein

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:
Thank you for admitting that this comes back to customer requirements.

Larry Edelstein

Admitting? Admitting? Everything comes back to customer requirements.
I can't think of a single thing that doesn't other than what I order
for lunch.


Nov 12 '05 #158
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<108805539 7.21570@yasure> ...
Interestingly enough while it is a "chargeable option" I am currently
consulting for a division of a very very large aerospace firm, and I
am aware of a very very large internet retailer, that do not pay a
premium for partitioning. I can partition every database in the entire
corporation and not one additional cent goes to Larry.

Once again ... it all comes down to negotiations.
Yeah, nothing like a $50 million dollar enterprise license deal to get
you free partitioning. But that's a special case that seldom applies
in my experience.

On the other hand, I've had to use both oracle 8i & 9i on prior
projects *without* any partitioning due to the inability of my
management to work out the extra licensing costs. At this point the
free clustering/partitioning available within DB2 is an advantage -
since it can't be 'left out' of a license. I can use it with all
their products.
I am beginning to
think that too many geeks need to take some bonehead business classes.


Given that you've admitted to just throwing an rfp over the wall to
sales reps - and compared db2 & oracle based on the results - it
really doesn't sound like you know what negotiation means. That's a
starting point, not an ending point. Combine that with your poor
knowledge of db2 and I'm sure that your negotiated price was pretty
laughable. Did you deliberately rig your "negotiatio ns" to favor the
product you prefer? Or is this just incompetance?

db
Nov 12 '05 #159
Serge Rielau <sr*****@ca.e ye-be-em.com> wrote in message news:<cb******* ***@hanover.tor olab.ibm.com>.. .
<snip>
quit-pro-quo in a good way for a change? ;-)

<snip>

i've always heard that ibm was a hard guy to work for, resignation
for talking nice about Oracle??? seems a bit harsh <GG>
Nov 12 '05 #160

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