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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11594
Serge Rielau wrote:
In a "partitione d" view case, which is the one we are debating here,
The compiler will find that the same indices are present for all tables.
The SELECT FROM V WHERE <input> with V = UNION ALL (T1, ..., Tn) will be
rewritten into a SELECT FROM T(i) with i = foo(<input>) and associated
indexes Ix(i)
For secondary indexes as well ? Can uniqueness be enforced across the
tables for things other than the primary key ? What happens if a
constraint is not in place at the time of the DML ?
Statistics are also computed with some magic.


Including overall skew at the table or index level ? Will one or more
individual execution plans be merged into an overall range scan and
executed in parallel if it makes sense ? Does the possible degree of
parallelism only match the tables left in the query after the elimination.

Nov 12 '05 #141
Mark Townsend wrote:
Serge Rielau wrote:
In a "partitione d" view case, which is the one we are debating here,
The compiler will find that the same indices are present for all tables.
The SELECT FROM V WHERE <input> with V = UNION ALL (T1, ..., Tn) will
be rewritten into a SELECT FROM T(i) with i = foo(<input>) and
associated indexes Ix(i) For secondary indexes as well ? Can uniqueness be enforced across the
tables for things other than the primary key ?

As long as the partitioning columns are part of the unique key.
General non unique indexes are no problem of course.
What happens if a constraint is not in place at the time of the DML ?

Sorry to be blunt: But that is a stupid comment if I ever heard one.
Each partition in a range partitioned table obeys the range, dohhh!
If that's no comnstraint what is?
For a UNION ALL view the partitioning is described in constraints.
For partitioned tables in the table DDL.
I wasn't even drawing a comparison between DB2 UNION ALL vs. Oracle
range partitioning. I'm simply describing what DB2 UNION ALL views do
and that it's more than one would ordinarily expect and that they
possess many aspects of what one would expect only from table tange
partitioning.
If you feel the need for a p***ing contest do it alone.
Statistics are also computed with some magic.

Including overall skew at the table or index level ? Will one or more
individual execution plans be merged into an overall range scan and
executed in parallel if it makes sense ? Does the possible degree of
parallelism only match the tables left in the query after the elimination.

So, Mark, just how deep is your Oracle optimizer knowledge.
My DB2 Optimizer knowledge is fair at best despite latching right onto
it every day. Do you really think we should go into comparing DB2 SMP
capabilities against Oracle SMP capabilities? It would be a good piece
of work to just describe the basic lingo such as what straw scans are.
And then of cours ethe magic question: Does one want SMP and when?
And then who will decide what is better, given the tight integration
into the overal design? It's like one of those embararsing pseudo
scientific matches on Discover Channel:
"The Big White Shark vs the Alligator" *drumroll*

I've got a product to deliver. I take time to teach, I won't waste my
time on: "But my daddy drives...."

Cheers
Serge

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #142
Larry wrote:
Thank you for admitting that this comes back to customer requirements.

Larry Edelstein


Admitting? Admitting? Everything comes back to customer requirements.
I can't think of a single thing that doesn't other than what I order
for lunch.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #143
Rahul Kitchlu wrote:
Daniel, Oracle's practice of dubious 'internal' discounts in pricing are a
legend in iteself. As for list price comparisons for
the sake of objectivity, Oracle is consistently the most expensive solution
you can pick up.


I don't sell the product or make any money from its sales so I don't
care. But dubious is your word. And surely you aren't so naive that
you don't think the sales person that met me from IBM didn't do the
same thing. The only a fool or a moron pays list price for a commercial
RDBMS or a used car.

And I suspect your CFO would say the same thing about anyone that
price shops based on list price. You price commercial RDBMS products
with something called an RFP.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #144
Mark Townsend wrote:
Noons wrote:

But the partitioning being extra is new in Enterprise Server 10g.
That has always been the argument for that version: it has everything
and the kitchen sink, except for weird and wonderful options such as
cluster server stuff (aka RAC), OLAP, text.


Noons - I'm confused. Partitioning has always been a chargeable option,
from when it was introduced way back in Oracle 8. Are we at
cross-purposes here ?


Interestingly enough while it is a "chargeable option" I am currently
consulting for a division of a very very large aerospace firm, and I
am aware of a very very large internet retailer, that do not pay a
premium for partitioning. I can partition every database in the entire
corporation and not one additional cent goes to Larry.

Once again ... it all comes down to negotiations. I am beginning to
think that too many geeks need to take some bonehead business classes.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #145
I've only put my post in at this point for want of somewhere else to do it.
It's not a reply to anyone, actually.

This has all been most fascinating, and probably could continue to be. And
it occurs to me that there is probably a use for a full-blown newsgroup to
cover the intersect between the two products. It must surely be quite common
to have to do both DB2 *and* Oracle work, and a newsgroup that compares one
with another, or explains one in the terms of the other, might not be a bad
idea. If only I knew how to go about doing such a thing, I might perhaps do
it. Maybe someone else will think it a good idea and run with it?

But, aside from that, I'd venture to suggest that the thread itself is
pretty much off-topic for at least the Oracle group, whose charter I have at
least read. Particularly since it regularly threatens to degenerate into a
product-bashing competition, and not a vehicle for mutual enlightenment.

Do you think we might begin to draw it to a close, please?

Just a thought.

Regards
HJR
Nov 12 '05 #146
Serge Rielau wrote:
I wasn't even drawing a comparison between DB2 UNION ALL vs. Oracle
range partitioning. I'm simply describing what DB2 UNION ALL views do
and that it's more than one would ordinarily expect and that they
possess many aspects of what one would expect only from table tange
partitioning.
No, you weren't. But others on this thread have at least implied that
DB2's UNION ALL capabilities are equal to Oracle's Partitioning Option,
and there has been a strong implication that DB2 is better because the
functionality is the same, while Oracle charges for the solution and IBM
does not - an implication I found incredibly arrogant. Then there was
the spurious pricing comparison between a fully loaded Oracle EE
environment versus IBM DB2 UDB WSE, and the equally spurious claim that
while Oracle has been forced to drop it's prices, IBM's has been able to
raise theirs. Then Blair felt the need to put the boot in with some
completely random wanderings, and then Rahul (a first time poster, I
note, to either group) decided to reiterate around a supposed pricing
differential with yet more incorrect information, invecture, and a list
of difference between the Oracle's editions, that was, frankly, ingenious.
If you feel the need for a p***ing contest do it alone.


I'd be happier to not to have to do it at all. The truth is that a lot
of mis-information is posted during these tirades. How about next time
you see something posted somewhere that negatively compares Oracle to
DB2, which you know to be incorrect, you step in and politely offer a
correction, either way ?

Nov 12 '05 #147
Mark Townsend wrote:
> If you feel the need for a p***ing contest do it alone.


I'd be happier to not to have to do it at all. The truth is that a lot
of mis-information is posted during these tirades. How about next time
you see something posted somewhere that negatively compares Oracle to
DB2, which you know to be incorrect, you step in and politely offer a
correction, either way ?

I have stepped in when DB2 was technically oversold. (which is all I know)
I have also been seen defending SQL Server in these waters when I felt
it was unfairly bashed.
To protect Oracle as an IBM techie..wouldn' t that require some from of
quit-pro-quo in a good way for a change? ;-)
I do attempt myself in technical contribution on c.d.o.s and c.d.ms-sql
when it comes to SQL btw.
I'm glad you have recognized that I try hard to keep my side education
rather than confrontational .

Now let's heed HJR's request and end this thread's misery :-)

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #148
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 3:12 PM:

And then of cours ethe magic question: Does one want SMP and when?

Hmmm, judging by the fact that IBM bought one of the major
exponents of SMP and uses its technology a bit all over the place,
and that SUN and just about any other *nix computer maker does
the same, I think you should rephrase that to
"Does anyone not want SMP?"

:)
Federated databases may be a nifty way of working around
the limitations of a shared-nothing architecture in an
SMP environment, but that doesn't make SMP undesirable....

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #149
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 12:04 PM:
Specifically in the index area, DB2 UDB provides the ability to grant
the privilege to create an index on a table, or an index specification
on a nickname.
I was talking about grants for access to objects. Administrative grants
are a completely different thing.

No. Just GRANT required priviledge to group OZZIE via GRANT statement.
Hmmm OK. Didn't look that way when I looked at it, but I'm willing to
admit I didn't get all the details.
One can GRANT schema priviledges, and GROUP can be specfied in that
GRANT statement.
Yes, but can that group have privileges to portions of various
schemas simultaneously?
Don't know what versions deserve the name of UDB. But I am talking about
DB2 UDB for Intel/UNIX/Linux.


Thanks. That makes it clear for me.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #150

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