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Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11617
Noons wrote:
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 10:39 PM:
DB2 UDB for LUW even collapses a UNION ALL view into a single
"parameteri zed table" if possible, it pushes UPDATE and DELETE through
UNION ALL. At this point UNION ALL and range-partitioning effectively
move very close together in those DML respects.

OK, so how does the optimizer handle indexes in this UNION ALL of
many tables?

In a "partitione d" view case, which is the one we are debating here,
The compiler will find that the same indices are present for all tables.
The SELECT FROM V WHERE <input> with V = UNION ALL (T1, ..., Tn) will be
rewritten into a SELECT FROM T(i) with i = foo(<input>) and associated
indexes Ix(i)
Statistics are also computed with some magic.
Essentially what you see is a partitioned table. It just has different
lingo attached to it. But for all the optimizer cares it is.
This makes the difference between a partitioned table and a partitioned
view the administration which's importance differs from case to case.
Nonetheless I see having sophisticated UNION ALL technology as
important in the broader context, especially in the context of
federated databases.

Again: so how do you optimize a UNION ALL across federated databases?

sing information constarints/where predicates it is easy to do branch
elimination with a therem prover or at least prove the partitioning
property. The result is that only relevant remote tables will be queried
which, in a federated environment, is a big deal.
the rides at your favorite theme park are also all free. Pitty if you
don't use them all after paying the entrance fee.

That is how parks make moolah... :)

Indeed.
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #131
Larry wrote:
Who said anything about operating system security, and why are you
changing the subject? Noons made a claim, and I disputed it. DB2 UDB has
"basic" security. The implementation of security authentication is
another matter.

Larry Edelstein


Not changing the subject at all.

You learn what Oracle provides in its basic, no extra cost add-ins
security and then we'll have a discussion in which all of us know
what the phrase security means.

From the standpoint of a discussion comparing two products ... you
are making assumptions based on one about the other that are clearly
unfounded.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #132
Larry wrote:
Hmmm.

"Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to the TCO of the
'equivalent' configurations. Just like Tivoli for even the most basic
security. Ah well, in character. What can one say..."

I guess saying "Tivoli is required" is open to interpretation, huh Daniel?

Larry Edelstein


I think not. Required to match, or at least come close to, Oracle's
base security offering. But if you don't need that level of security
not necessary. It really comes down to how valuable the assets are
that you are protecting.

I'll be in California at UC Berkeley tomorrow. If you are in the
area stop by and join me for lunch. ;-)

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #133
Thank you for admitting that this comes back to customer requirements.

Larry Edelstein

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:
Hmmm.

"Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to the TCO of the
'equivalent' configurations. Just like Tivoli for even the most basic
security. Ah well, in character. What can one say..."

I guess saying "Tivoli is required" is open to interpretation, huh
Daniel?

Larry Edelstein

I think not. Required to match, or at least come close to, Oracle's
base security offering. But if you don't need that level of security
not necessary. It really comes down to how valuable the assets are
that you are protecting.

I'll be in California at UC Berkeley tomorrow. If you are in the
area stop by and join me for lunch. ;-)


Nov 12 '05 #134
There you go changing the subject again. The original statement had
nothing to do with a comparison of what Oracle provides. It said

"Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security. Ah well, in
character. What can one say... "

Larry Edelstein

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:
Who said anything about operating system security, and why are you
changing the subject? Noons made a claim, and I disputed it. DB2 UDB
has "basic" security. The implementation of security authentication is
another matter.

Larry Edelstein

Not changing the subject at all.

You learn what Oracle provides in its basic, no extra cost add-ins
security and then we'll have a discussion in which all of us know
what the phrase security means.

From the standpoint of a discussion comparing two products ... you
are making assumptions based on one about the other that are clearly
unfounded.


Nov 12 '05 #135
Noons,

I can't answer all of your questions. Perhaps someone else on the list can.

Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 1:59 AM:
Yes ... priviledges can be granted via SQL Grant and Revoke to groups
... and it works for tables, views, indexes, packages, UDFs, Stored
Procs, etc.

Indexes? I think you are overstating the features right there... :)
Or perhaps you are quoting a feature that only exists in the mainframe
version?


Specifically in the index area, DB2 UDB provides the ability to grant
the privilege to create an index on a table, or an index specification
on a nickname. Not talking mainframe or DB2/400 at all here. See the DB2
SQL Reference under the Grant statement.
Good. So how do you map that to a user that was verified externally?
Say for example I login as "BLOGGSJ", which the external security attached
to group "OZZIE"? Do I have to have "OZZIE" defined BOTH in DB2
AND the external security?
No. Just GRANT required priviledge to group OZZIE via GRANT statement.

Better yet: can I login to the external security AND the database
as a member of group "USERS", get a SP to check who I am and what I
want to do and then give my logon the db group "OZZIE" and its rights
according to the contents of a config table?
GRANT can be embedded in an application program. Don't know for sure if
this can be done ... perhaps someone from Toronto knows.
And another point: can you associate group security by GRANT
across schemas? As in granting a given set of tables from schema A
AND schema B to a single group "OZZIE"?
One can GRANT schema priviledges, and GROUP can be specfied in that
GRANT statement.

Because I'll tell you what: I had a copy of DB2 UDB in my PC for
most of last year and for the life of me I could not find out
how to do it... Then again: please stay within the only version of
DB2 that deserves the name of UDB, OK? I don't give two hoots
what DB2/zos or DB2/AS400 does or will do in version 32.


Don't know what versions deserve the name of UDB. But I am talking about
DB2 UDB for Intel/UNIX/Linux.

Larry Edelstein

Nov 12 '05 #136
> But I have written quotes on both current to within the last 60 days. So
I am not likely to be wrong. In fact I have it on good authority that
given a quote from IBM or Microsoft ... Oracle will match it or beat it.
I think like so much in this business ... the over-pricing of Oracle has
become mythology rather than reality.

--
Daniel Morgan

Daniel, Oracle's practice of dubious 'internal' discounts in pricing are a
legend in iteself. As for list price comparisons for
the sake of objectivity, Oracle is consistently the most expensive solution
you can pick up. Since this thread is talking
about Microsoft, lets for a minute consider the SMB space. Oracle have
introduced a new low price SE1 version with
10g to compete in this space which is still 3 times more expensive than DB2
in cpu licensing and 2 times in per user
licensing. Moreover in terms of real usability, oracle fails to remind ppl
that SE and SE1 does not include key functionality
that oracle EE includes such as TAF, parallelism, label security, perf
/diag/monitoring tools etc. On top of all this another
gimmick is 'free' inclusion of RAC with SE. Yes, Oracle is trying to win on
windows, etc.. but so far the strategy really
has been more of a marketing ploy than realism.. something to get their RAC
acceptance numbers up.
Nov 12 '05 #137

"Larry" <La***@nospam.n et> wrote in message
news:cb******** **@news.btv.ibm .com...
Noons,

I can't answer all of your questions. Perhaps someone else on the list can.
Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 1:59 AM:
Yes ... priviledges can be granted via SQL Grant and Revoke to groups
... and it works for tables, views, indexes, packages, UDFs, Stored
Procs, etc.

Indexes? I think you are overstating the features right there... :)
Or perhaps you are quoting a feature that only exists in the mainframe
version?


Specifically in the index area, DB2 UDB provides the ability to grant
the privilege to create an index on a table, or an index specification
on a nickname. Not talking mainframe or DB2/400 at all here. See the DB2
SQL Reference under the Grant statement.

Good. So how do you map that to a user that was verified externally?
Say for example I login as "BLOGGSJ", which the external security attached to group "OZZIE"? Do I have to have "OZZIE" defined BOTH in DB2
AND the external security?


No. Just GRANT required priviledge to group OZZIE via GRANT statement.

Better yet: can I login to the external security AND the database
as a member of group "USERS", get a SP to check who I am and what I
want to do and then give my logon the db group "OZZIE" and its rights
according to the contents of a config table?

GRANT can be embedded in an application program. Don't know for sure if
this can be done ... perhaps someone from Toronto knows.


Authentication of external users is possible, you can even write your own
user exits to acheive this.
Authorization happens in the engine through grant statements. Yes you can
embed grants in any application sql. Also, usually static sql coming from
applications uses package level security.
And another point: can you associate group security by GRANT
across schemas? As in granting a given set of tables from schema A
AND schema B to a single group "OZZIE"?


One can GRANT schema priviledges, and GROUP can be specfied in that
GRANT statement.

Because I'll tell you what: I had a copy of DB2 UDB in my PC for
most of last year and for the life of me I could not find out
how to do it... Then again: please stay within the only version of
DB2 that deserves the name of UDB, OK? I don't give two hoots
what DB2/zos or DB2/AS400 does or will do in version 32.


Don't know what versions deserve the name of UDB. But I am talking about
DB2 UDB for Intel/UNIX/Linux.


If there is still confusion.. think of it as this..
DB2 on distributed platforms is UDB .. rest is Host DB2.. this again is not
too far from what oracle does.. fyi.

Larry Edelstein

Nov 12 '05 #138
> Oracle have
introduced a new low price SE1 version with
10g to compete in this space which is still 3 times more expensive than DB2
in cpu licensing and 2 times in per user
licensing.
This is incorrect. SE1 is $4995 per CPU, or $149 per named user, with a
minimum of 5 named users (i.e $745)

According to this article
http://www-106.ibm.com/developerwork...ikopoulos.html

IBM UDB WSE is $999 plus $249 per user and IBM UDB WUSE is $7500 per CPU

Based on these published numbers, SE1 is 1/3 of the price of IBM UDB WSE
(via the user metric), or 2/3rds of the price of IBM UDB WUSE (via the
CPU metric)

I would have hoped that an IBM representative would actually do some due
diligence before posting.
Moreover in terms of real usability, oracle fails to remind ppl
that SE and SE1 does not include key functionality
that oracle EE includes such as TAF,
TAF is included with SE (it does not make sense to include in SE1, as
SE1 does not provide the RAC capability).

parallelism,

I assume by this you mean the big SMP optimizations such as parallel
query, index, data load etc. These are not provided on SE1, the
rationale being that there is little reason to support parallelism of
these environments on typical 2 CPU environments. SE1 will however take
full advantage of all 2 CPUs when executing a multi-user workload.

label security,

Correct - and in fact Label Security is an option to Enterprise Edition,
being built on top of en EE feature called VPD (or Vitrual Private
Database) Note that IBM DB2 UDB has no equivalent to either VPD or Label
Security.
perf/diag/monitoring tools etc.
SE1 does include all the automated management capabilities, such as
automated optimizer statistics gathering, automated memory management,
automated storage management, automated backup and recovery etc.
However, it is true that the capabilities provided by the Diagnostic and
Tuning packs in Grid Control cannot be used against an SE1 database
target. The rationale is that in the majority of 2 CPU deployments, high
end diagnosis and tuning is not a large ongoing requirement - instead,
the engine should just run itself with minimum (or indeed, no) DBA
intervention.
On top of all this another
gimmick is 'free' inclusion of RAC with SE. Yes, Oracle is trying to win on
windows, etc.. but so far the strategy really
has been more of a marketing ploy than realism.. something to get their RAC
acceptance numbers up.


Interestingly enough, RAC acceptance numbers are already very, very
good. However, there are a number of 2x2 node Windows clusters out there
running SQLServer (or others) in active/passive mode, which we thought
might be interested in getting full value out of their hardware
investment. Time will tell.

Nov 12 '05 #139
Noons wrote:

But the partitioning being extra is new in Enterprise Server 10g.
That has always been the argument for that version: it has everything
and the kitchen sink, except for weird and wonderful options such as
cluster server stuff (aka RAC), OLAP, text.


Noons - I'm confused. Partitioning has always been a chargeable option,
from when it was introduced way back in Oracle 8. Are we at
cross-purposes here ?

Nov 12 '05 #140

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