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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11617
Ian apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 5:29 AM:
It's not? Where does Oracle say that this isn't a separately licensed
product? Are they publishing incorrect information in their global
price list?


I don't know about their "global price list". Here is
a piece of reality for you: I have 9ir2EE on my notebook, happily
using partitioned tables and indexes, for the same price EE
cost me.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #121
Blair Adamache apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 1:17 PM:
product for security. So, to say that DB2 necessitates Tivoli for security,
as has been contended in this thread and in the past by Oracle sycophants, is
So why did IBM require it to implement security in the SAP system I
evaluated a while ago? It made them nearly as expensive as the nearest
option.
kipper. Larry E has worked on Wall Street with both DB2 customers on
mainframes, UNIX, Linux and Windows. Larry: have you ever included a Tivoli
security package for a DB2 customer?


and Larry E worked in Wall st is proof of what exactly?
Would you like to compare that "certificat ion" with a military
secret clearance?
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #122
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 2:00 PM:
"basic" security. The implementation of security authentication is
another matter.


Of course. How?

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #123
Blair Adamache apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 1:20 PM:
SQL is a beautiful language because it is so simple: 9 verbs. 4 to
manipulate data, 3 to define the tables, and 2 to control access (GRANT and
REVOKE). Who would want more? Only a consultant who relies on an RDBMS that
is overly complex and generates lots of billable hours - perhaps even a
teaching position at an august academy of learning.


Actually the SQL standard defines rather more than just those....
But let's allow that one to pass.
As for the hours, it all depends on how much one charges.
Some companies with less need for complexity charge their "experts"
at rates of up to 2500/day. We rather charge a lot less.
It all evens out.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #124
Richard D. Latham apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 9:49 AM:


I suspect folks are talking about the delegation of OS user
authentication and authorization to Tivoli Identity Manager.


The interesting problem of course being how do you apply
database security of an object to a user or group that is
not verified by the database security.

But of course, there is always a battery of consultants
at the ready to provide a solution using the "simple"
language.

And a battery of extra options to be (not) added to the TCO
to solve the "simple" problem. Details, details...

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #125
Yes ... priviledges can be granted via SQL Grant and Revoke to groups
.... and it works for tables, views, indexes, packages, UDFs, Stored
Procs, etc.

Don't know about row level security. But if you don't change your
definition of "even the most basic security", it looks to me like we can
do the vast majority of it, if not more.

Larry Edelstein

Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 2:00 AM:
"capabiliti es"?

Yes.

What is it capable of?

Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.

Can you grant to groups rather than individual user ids?
Does it work for tables, views, objects and stored code
in the same manner? Can you apply row level security?


Nov 12 '05 #126
Niall Litchfield apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 3:44 PM:

Ian is correct - partitioning is an extra cost option in Oracle (though I
understand that that extra cost can be close to zero if the deal is
important enough :)). It does offer hash partitioning as well :)


Well, that is a fact as well. As someone else said: pay list price and
get sucked in.

But the partitioning being extra is new in Enterprise Server 10g.
That has always been the argument for that version: it has everything
and the kitchen sink, except for weird and wonderful options such as
cluster server stuff (aka RAC), OLAP, text.

If it now starts getting charged for basic volume extras then Oracle
is in for a rough ride, that is for sure. It basically puts them in
the same foot as the competition, rather than providing better features.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #127
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 24/06/2004 1:59 AM:
Yes ... priviledges can be granted via SQL Grant and Revoke to groups
... and it works for tables, views, indexes, packages, UDFs, Stored
Procs, etc.


Indexes? I think you are overstating the features right there... :)
Or perhaps you are quoting a feature that only exists in the mainframe
version?

Good. So how do you map that to a user that was verified externally?
Say for example I login as "BLOGGSJ", which the external security attached
to group "OZZIE"? Do I have to have "OZZIE" defined BOTH in DB2
AND the external security?

Better yet: can I login to the external security AND the database
as a member of group "USERS", get a SP to check who I am and what I
want to do and then give my logon the db group "OZZIE" and its rights
according to the contents of a config table?

And another point: can you associate group security by GRANT
across schemas? As in granting a given set of tables from schema A
AND schema B to a single group "OZZIE"?

Because I'll tell you what: I had a copy of DB2 UDB in my PC for
most of last year and for the life of me I could not find out
how to do it... Then again: please stay within the only version of
DB2 that deserves the name of UDB, OK? I don't give two hoots
what DB2/zos or DB2/AS400 does or will do in version 32.

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #128
Ian
Noons wrote:
Ian apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 5:29 AM:
It's not? Where does Oracle say that this isn't a separately licensed
product? Are they publishing incorrect information in their global
price list?

I don't know about their "global price list". Here is
a piece of reality for you: I have 9ir2EE on my notebook, happily
using partitioned tables and indexes, for the same price EE
cost me.


So what? Just because it's installed and works doesn't mean that you
are compliant with your software license.

I guess that DPF is free, too. Oh, and if we're ignoring licensing
terms, DB2 is also free. So, I guess DB2 is much more cost effective
than Oracle.


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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Nov 12 '05 #129
Ian wrote:
Just because it's installed and works doesn't mean that you
are compliant with your software license.

I guess that DPF is free, too. Oh, and if we're ignoring licensing
terms, DB2 is also free. So, I guess DB2 is much more cost effective
than Oracle.

DB2 is kind-of free. You can download DB2 V8.1 Personal Developers Edition
from IBM's web site for free (or cough up $25 and buy the CD-ROMs) and it
runs just fine (especially after upgrading to V8.1.5). And as long as you
use it solely to develop and test applications (and do not put it into
production) you are very likely complying with the software license that
comes with it.

Now if you put it into production without getting a bigger more
appropriate license, you will probably be violating the license that comes
with it. And IBM might never find out; though they might. No CIO of a
large corporation could allow this to happen because of the tarnished
reputation his company would acquire (not to mention costly court
judgements). And private individuals will sleep better if they know they
are not stealing.

--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 13:55:00 up 1 day, 3:26, 5 users, load average: 12.19, 12.09, 11.33

Nov 12 '05 #130

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