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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11616
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
Actually, right now I've got several oracle & db2 systems that are
using range partitioning.
No you don't. You have DB2 systems using union all views. Everybody has
union all views.
Of the three techniques
Oracle's is the most sophisticated and has the most features probably,
though MDC is working fine. Union-alls are the most similar to the
Oracle technique though aren't nearly so polished.
There are severe limitations to the union all view approach - as a
slight indicator, see a current thread in the DB2 newsgroup -
http://tinyurl.com/34cv5

Some other questions to ask.
1) In a union all view scenario, how do I add/maintain/use a secondary
index ?
2) In a union all view scenario, how do I get view level statistics ?
3) In a union all view scenario, how do I create a partitioned summary
table ?
4) In a union all view scenario, does the query engine know which of the
views below the summary table are reflected in the current refesh, and
therefore eligble as a target for rewrite ?
5) In a union all view scenario, if three of the underlying tables
qualify for a range scan, what degree of parallelism is obtained ?
I assume that
we'll see them steadily improved over the next couple of years.
Serge has indicated that IBM will add full partitioned tables to a
future release, just not in the Stinger timeframes. Note that this is a
huge development effort, and not undertaken likely. Oracle has spent at
least 8 years adding and polishing it's partitioning capabilities, and I
believe we have significantly more development resource than IBM has.
So, actually I'm getting table partitioning for free from DB2 but have
to pay for it from Oracle. If I want to add database partitioning to
the table partitioning - only then do I have to pay for it from db2.


No you are not. You are getting Union All views for free. Oracle also
has Union All views, for free, as well. And what indication do you have
that if and when IBM add full blown partitioning, they will not charge
for it ?
Nov 12 '05 #111

What exactly does the Advanced Security option offer? I am looking at the
data sheet for the product, and it looks like it provides the ability for
Oracle to plug in to external (enterprise) authentication - like Oracle
Internet Directory, LDAP, RADIUS, etc ?
Amongst other things, yes. That's the strong authentication part of it,
the other part is the strong encryption on the wire. Note that Oracle
Internet Directory is actually an implementation of a directory using
the LDAP protocal
Don't these other products have to be licensed (whether they are from
Oracle or another vendor) ?


If you want to use an external authentication system, then yes, that is
correct.

Nov 12 '05 #112
>
No it didn't publish based upon 3ghz machines in 2001, but it did
publish based upon the following formula:
- intel based: $1 / mhz / cpu
- risc based: $0.67 / mhz / cpu

At the time I was mostly specing out sun risc boxes - around 450 mhz
to 800 mhz IIRC. You could I assume get an intel 1 ghz machine at
that time. If that same licensing was being used today, then yes -
the cost would be $300k / CPU for a 3 ghz server.

At the time I was mostly specing out sun risc boxes - around 450 mhz
to 800 mhz IIRC. You could I assume get an intel 1 ghz machine at
that time. If that same licensing was being used today, then yes -
the cost would be $300k / CPU for a 3 ghz server.
You have your figures slightly mixed up - based on these, your 800 Mhz
boxes would have only cost $301-$536 per CPU. Similary, using the same
numbers, the licence for a 3 Ghz Intel Processor would today be $3000.

You are infact referring to UPU pricing, where a "power unit" was
defined as 1Mhz of power in an Intel-compatible, or 0.67Mhz in a Risc
processor. The actual cost per power unit, however, was not a dollar :-)
The only reason that this pricing scheme was dropped in late 2001 was
due to a noticable drop in sales growth. I'm sure that it'll be back
if Oracle ever gets as confident as it was in 2000


Actually, the biggest reason it was dropped was that UPU was simply
unworkable given the rapid differences in clock speeds at the time. So
indeed, it was the imminent arrival of the faster CPUs (with a
corresponding wider spread in prices between the different hardware
vendors) that prompted the change.

Nov 12 '05 #113
Blair Adamache wrote:

Yes, it seems that some software sales reps learned from used car dealers:


Pot. Kettle. Black - http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1602461,00.asp


Nov 12 '05 #114
"Noons" <wi*******@yaho o.com.au.nospam > wrote in message
news:40******** *************** @news.optusnet. com.au...
I was suprised to learn that (range/list) partitioning costs extra on
Oracle.


Me too, mainly because it isn't true.


Ian is correct - partitioning is an extra cost option in Oracle (though I
understand that that extra cost can be close to zero if the deal is
important enough :)). It does offer hash partitioning as well :)
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
http://www.niall.litchfield.dial.pipex.com
Nov 12 '05 #115

"Niall Litchfield" <ni************ **@dial.pipex.c om> wrote in message
news:40******** *************@n ews-text.dial.pipex .com...
"Noons" <wi*******@yaho o.com.au.nospam > wrote in message
news:40******** *************** @news.optusnet. com.au...
I was suprised to learn that (range/list) partitioning costs extra on
Oracle.


Me too, mainly because it isn't true.


Ian is correct - partitioning is an extra cost option in Oracle (though I
understand that that extra cost can be close to zero if the deal is
important enough :)). It does offer hash partitioning as well :)


Maybe that was Noon's point: that you pay for partitioning in Oracle, not
for a particular partitioning method. Range/List doesn't therefore cost
"extra" or more than Range/Hash. If you can do basic Range partitioning,
you've already paid the necessary moolah for the partitioning option, and
therefore Range, Hash, List, Range/Hash and Range/List partitioning are all
standard components of that one option and, in that sense, come 'free'.

I assume that's what he meant, anyway.

Regards
HJR



Nov 12 '05 #116
I'm reluctantly re-entering thid thread for a guest-appearance....

I s'pose the truth, as so often, is somewhere in the middle.
DB2 UDB for LUW's UNION ALL capabilities are bigger than those of Oracle.
UNION ALL views support the full range of SQL (update, delete, native
insert (without instead of triggers), select) including branch
elimination, theorem proving and so on.
DB2 UDB for LUW even collapses a UNION ALL view into a single
"parameteri zed table" if possible, it pushes UPDATE and DELETE through
UNION ALL. At this point UNION ALL and range-partitioning effectively
move very close together in those DML respects.
Obviously these enhancements are influenced by the fact that no
table-range partitioning is available in the same way that Oracle
reduced investment in UNION ALL technology because of table range
partitioning is available.

Nonetheless I see having sophisticated UNION ALL technology as important
in the broader context, especially in the context of federated databases.
range partitioning across DBMS has to use an SQL solution.
After the good experience with TPC-C I feel that, with respect to raw
performance, table range-partitioning in DB2 Vx will be hard pressed to
beat UNION ALL in DB2 Vx.

I think the bottom line is that DB2 "free" UNION ALL has more to offer
than Oracle "free" UNION ALL.
W.r.t. partitioning being more than just range partitioning. Granted,
the rides at your favorite theme park are also all free. Pitty if you
don't use them all after paying the entrance fee.
I sure don't go to themepark because I want to go for a swim and I
recall a thread in the Oracle newsgroup where soemone tried hard to use
UNION ALL to avoid the cost of the partitioning feature.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Nov 12 '05 #117
Mark Townsend <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message news:<bG7Cc.915 23$eu.65695@att bi_s02>...
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
Actually, right now I've got several oracle & db2 systems that are
using range partitioning.


No you don't. You have DB2 systems using union all views. Everybody has
union all views.


and MDC which is similar to range partitioning. I probably shouldn't
have included it as range partitioning - since it isn't exactly the
same. But it's close enough. And it's a breeze to implement, works
great, and is free.

It doesn't have all the features that oracle's partitioning has, but
it has a nice set of its own. And again - it's free.
Of the three techniques
Oracle's is the most sophisticated and has the most features probably,
though MDC is working fine. Union-alls are the most similar to the
Oracle technique though aren't nearly so polished.


There are severe limitations to the union all view approach - as a
slight indicator, see a current thread in the DB2 newsgroup -
http://tinyurl.com/34cv5


Having used the union all approach, the only real issue I've bumped
into is locking in a real-time high-volume scenario. This isn't an
issue however, if you're doing batch processing (like a warehouse),
have brief maintenance windows, have lower-volumes, or just cycle
tables instead of statically allocate them to a range. It still isn't
as polished as oracle partitions, but seems to be working fine.
Nov 12 '05 #118
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 2:00 AM:
"capabiliti es"?
Yes.


What is it capable of?

Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.


Can you grant to groups rather than individual user ids?
Does it work for tables, views, objects and stored code
in the same manner? Can you apply row level security?

--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #119
Serge Rielau apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 10:39 PM:
I s'pose the truth, as so often, is somewhere in the middle.
Bingo.
DB2 UDB for LUW even collapses a UNION ALL view into a single
"parameteri zed table" if possible, it pushes UPDATE and DELETE through
UNION ALL. At this point UNION ALL and range-partitioning effectively
move very close together in those DML respects.
OK, so how does the optimizer handle indexes in this UNION ALL of
many tables?
Nonetheless I see having sophisticated UNION ALL technology as important
in the broader context, especially in the context of federated databases.
Again: so how do you optimize a UNION ALL across federated databases?
the rides at your favorite theme park are also all free. Pitty if you
don't use them all after paying the entrance fee.


That is how parks make moolah... :)
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
wi*******@yahoo .com.au.nospam
Nov 12 '05 #120

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