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Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11594
Ian wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Mark Townsend wrote:
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost.


<snip>

A couple of things should be pointed out with this comparison

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM
DB2 WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web
serving environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2
CPUs) or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support
for up to 4 CPUs in a cluster).

Comparative based prices are then

Oracle SE1 4995 per CPU
IBM DB2 WUSE 7500 per CPU
Oracle SE 15000 per CPU (includes RAC)

2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so
I'm not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison.
They also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same
capability that Advanced Security option provides.


Not that dread mention of Tivoli to provide equivalent security. Every
time I bring that up the blue suits go into attack mode.


> I also note

that in the comparisons not once was the DPF price or the required
add-on for HA included even though just one or two posts earlier
everyone agreed that they were essential.

1) DPF is not a high availability feature. DPF provides for
scalability only. HA is a completely separate issue, and works
with DB2 regardless of which packaging (Express, WSE or ESE).
2) There certainly may be some cost for the associated HA product,
like HACMP/Sun Cluster/Veritas Cluster/MSCS/etc. I don't know
about that pricing. But, IBM does not charge anything extra if
you want to plug DB2 in to a cluster manager -- the tools are
provided by IBM for free to plug DB2 into a cluster manager.


That DPF and HA are different is constained in my statement. That IBM
charges more to equate with the system requirements I described is
not a good thing or a bad thing ... it is just a fact.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #101
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:


Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:

DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.


"capabiliti es"?

Yes.

DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the most
basic security for an rdmbs).


Really? How?


Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.

DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.


And?


And what?


Larry Edelstein


I think Noons attempt was to say ... "and is that all?" Because that's
not much.


And I think that my attempt was to address Noons original "claim" of

"Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security. Ah well, in
character. What can one say... "

without having a comprehensive list of DB2 security features in front of
me. I think that database object security and column-level encryption
qualify as features that would be included in "basic security". I also
think I made my point.

Larry Edelstein

Nov 12 '05 #102
SQL is a beautiful language because it is so simple: 9 verbs. 4 to
manipulate data, 3 to define the tables, and 2 to control access (GRANT and
REVOKE). Who would want more? Only a consultant who relies on an RDBMS that
is overly complex and generates lots of billable hours - perhaps even a
teaching position at an august academy of learning.

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:


Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:

DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.

"capabiliti es"?

Yes.

DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the most
basic security for an rdmbs).

Really? How?

Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.

DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.

And?

And what?


Larry Edelstein


I think Noons attempt was to say ... "and is that all?" Because that's
not much.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)


Nov 12 '05 #103
Be that as it may, no DB2 customer I have ever worked with has used a Tivoli
product for security. So, to say that DB2 necessitates Tivoli for security,
as has been contended in this thread and in the past by Oracle sycophants, is
not just a red herring - it is a scarlet herring, an ochre cod, and a rust
kipper. Larry E has worked on Wall Street with both DB2 customers on
mainframes, UNIX, Linux and Windows. Larry: have you ever included a Tivoli
security package for a DB2 customer?

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Blair Adamache wrote:
For security, 99% of DB2 customers today use services provided by the
operating system (like Kerberos on Windows and RACF on zOS). I'm aware
that there are Tivoli security products, but none of them are part of a
typical DB2 installation.


They do so because equivalent security is an add-on that costs more
money. And equating mainframe operating system level security to
security on Windows ... that I find hard to take in a single bite.

To me operating system security on a server is a hole to be avoided
whenever possible. At least on most operating systems.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)


Nov 12 '05 #104
Larry wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:


Noons wrote:

Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:

> DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.

"capabiliti es"?

Yes.
> DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the most
> basic security for an rdmbs).

Really? How?


Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.
> DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.

And?


And what?

Larry Edelstein


I think Noons attempt was to say ... "and is that all?" Because that's
not much.


And I think that my attempt was to address Noons original "claim" of

"Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security. Ah well, in
character. What can one say... "

without having a comprehensive list of DB2 security features in front of
me. I think that database object security and column-level encryption
qualify as features that would be included in "basic security". I also
think I made my point.

Larry Edelstein


From where many stand you didn't in that they would consider operating
system security marginal at best. I think most, if not all, commercial
database products offer object and column level security.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #105
Blair Adamache wrote:
Be that as it may, no DB2 customer I have ever worked with has used a Tivoli
product for security. So, to say that DB2 necessitates Tivoli for security,
as has been contended in this thread and in the past by Oracle sycophants, is
not just a red herring - it is a scarlet herring, an ochre cod, and a rust
kipper. Larry E has worked on Wall Street with both DB2 customers on
mainframes, UNIX, Linux and Windows. Larry: have you ever included a Tivoli
security package for a DB2 customer?


No one I can recall has ever said Tivoli was required. What has been
said is that Tivoli is required to provide the security level provided
by other products out of the box. Those are two very different statements.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #106
Blair Adamache wrote:
SQL is a beautiful language because it is so simple: 9 verbs. 4 to
manipulate data, 3 to define the tables, and 2 to control access (GRANT and
REVOKE). Who would want more? Only a consultant who relies on an RDBMS that
is overly complex and generates lots of billable hours - perhaps even a
teaching position at an august academy of learning.


To which I would reply that you are absolutely correct.

A carpenter uses the hammer that makes him the most money. I choose
my tools wisely too I believe. And I don't bang code for my health.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #107
Nope. TSM ... Yes. Tivoli Monitoring, Yes. No Tivoli Security.

Larry Edelstein

Blair Adamache wrote:
Be that as it may, no DB2 customer I have ever worked with has used a Tivoli
product for security. So, to say that DB2 necessitates Tivoli for security,
as has been contended in this thread and in the past by Oracle sycophants, is
not just a red herring - it is a scarlet herring, an ochre cod, and a rust
kipper. Larry E has worked on Wall Street with both DB2 customers on
mainframes, UNIX, Linux and Windows. Larry: have you ever included a Tivoli
security package for a DB2 customer?

Daniel Morgan wrote:

Blair Adamache wrote:

For security, 99% of DB2 customers today use services provided by the
operating system (like Kerberos on Windows and RACF on zOS). I'm aware
that there are Tivoli security products, but none of them are part of a
typical DB2 installation.


They do so because equivalent security is an add-on that costs more
money. And equating mainframe operating system level security to
security on Windows ... that I find hard to take in a single bite.

To me operating system security on a server is a hole to be avoided
whenever possible. At least on most operating systems.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wa shington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)



Nov 12 '05 #108
Who said anything about operating system security, and why are you
changing the subject? Noons made a claim, and I disputed it. DB2 UDB has
"basic" security. The implementation of security authentication is
another matter.

Larry Edelstein

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Larry wrote:

Noons wrote:

> Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:
>
>> DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "capabiliti es"?
>
Yes.

>
>> DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the
>> most basic security for an rdmbs).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Really? How?

Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.

>
>> DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And?

And what?

>

Larry Edelstein
I think Noons attempt was to say ... "and is that all?" Because that's
not much.


And I think that my attempt was to address Noons original "claim" of

"Just like Tivoli for even the most basic security. Ah well, in
character. What can one say... "

without having a comprehensive list of DB2 security features in front
of me. I think that database object security and column-level
encryption qualify as features that would be included in "basic
security". I also think I made my point.

Larry Edelstein

From where many stand you didn't in that they would consider operating
system security marginal at best. I think most, if not all, commercial
database products offer object and column level security.


Nov 12 '05 #109
Hmmm.

"Ah yes. One of those things that never get added to the TCO of the
'equivalent' configurations. Just like Tivoli for even the most basic
security. Ah well, in character. What can one say..."

I guess saying "Tivoli is required" is open to interpretation, huh Daniel?

Larry Edelstein

Daniel Morgan wrote:
Blair Adamache wrote:
Be that as it may, no DB2 customer I have ever worked with has used a
Tivoli
product for security. So, to say that DB2 necessitates Tivoli for
security,
as has been contended in this thread and in the past by Oracle
sycophants, is
not just a red herring - it is a scarlet herring, an ochre cod, and a
rust
kipper. Larry E has worked on Wall Street with both DB2 customers on
mainframes, UNIX, Linux and Windows. Larry: have you ever included a
Tivoli
security package for a DB2 customer?

No one I can recall has ever said Tivoli was required. What has been
said is that Tivoli is required to provide the security level provided
by other products out of the box. Those are two very different statements.


Nov 12 '05 #110

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

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