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tough choices

Hello:
We are designing two multi-user client server applications that
performs large number of transactions on database servers. On an
average Application A has a 50% mix of select and update/insert/delete
statements and application B has 80-20 mix of select and
update/insert/delete statements. Being able to scale the databases as
needed so the performance is unaffected, is one of our critical
requirements. We've been investigating Oracle 10g RAC and DB2 ESE as
alternatives and in both cases unfortunately, we get a lot more
marketing spin than real answers. I've looked through some of the
newsgroup postings on oracle and ibm's websites and most of the
discussions seem to be about high availability(an d technology
evangelism). The information we've gathered so far seems to point to:

1. The critical factor (and possibly the bottleneck) for Oracle's RAC
performance is the network and the storage access speed- if the
network does not have ample unused bandwidth or the rate at which
storage can be accessed by various nodes has reached the point of
diminishing returns - we won't get any additional performance by
simply increasing the number of nodes. Also, the application that
performs more writes will hugely increase the network traffic because
of synchronization requirements.

2. DB2 can deliver better performance but only if the data that is
accessed together is physically laid out together and the application
has knowledge of the physical data layout (so it can connect to the
right node in the cluster ). However, if, we separate the application
logic from physical layout of the data the performance will be
unpredictable.

All this is just hypotheses - if anyone has some real world experience
with these two offerings and can offer an objective opinion - we'd
really appreciate it.
Nov 12 '05
198 11617
Mark Townsend <ma***********@ comcast.net> wrote in message news:<VVNBc.157 111$Ly.81952@at tbi_s01>...
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM DB2
WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web serving
environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2 CPUs)
or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support for up to
4 CPUs in a cluster).
yep, you're right.
2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so I'm
not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison. They
also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same capability
that Advanced Security option provides.


Actually, right now I've got several oracle & db2 systems that are
using range partitioning. The oracle database required additional
licensing for partitioning - but the db2 databases didn't. One is
using MDC and the other union-all views. Of the three techniques
Oracle's is the most sophisticated and has the most features probably,
though MDC is working fine. Union-alls are the most similar to the
Oracle technique though aren't nearly so polished. I assume that
we'll see them steadily improved over the next couple of years.

So, actually I'm getting table partitioning for free from DB2 but have
to pay for it from Oracle. If I want to add database partitioning to
the table partitioning - only then do I have to pay for it from db2.

I included these features in the estimate since they were implied as
needed by the Daniel's description.

However, keep in mind that this is a huge drop in price for oracle.
Imagine if it still used its power-unit licensing cost - and you were
going to use four 3 ghz CPUs. That would cost about $300k / CPU - or
about $1.2m for to fully license the quad. Based upon this - oracle
has dropped its price around 75% in four years!


Where did you get this price from ? It sounds completely made up -
AFAIK, Oracle never published power unit pricing for 3 GHz machines.


No it didn't publish based upon 3ghz machines in 2001, but it did
publish based upon the following formula:
- intel based: $1 / mhz / cpu
- risc based: $0.67 / mhz / cpu

At the time I was mostly specing out sun risc boxes - around 450 mhz
to 800 mhz IIRC. You could I assume get an intel 1 ghz machine at
that time. If that same licensing was being used today, then yes -
the cost would be $300k / CPU for a 3 ghz server.

The only reason that this pricing scheme was dropped in late 2001 was
due to a noticable drop in sales growth. I'm sure that it'll be back
if Oracle ever gets as confident as it was in 2000.
Now, I'm not sure how DB2 UDB was licensed in 2000 - but I think it
was actually less than it is now. So, at the same time oracle has
dropped its price 75% db2 has raised its price 10% I believe (please
correct me on the older db2 prices).


I'm not sure that IBM has indeed raised prices. This quote is taken
directly from the IBM website "DB2 WSE and DB2 WSUE have undergone
significant licensing changes when compared to DB2 V7. If you licensed
DB2 WSE V7 with the Internet Processor license, you must migrate to DB2
WSUE V8. The cost of DB2 WSUE V8 has been reduced by 47% when compared
to DB2 V7 prices."


ah, ok - thanks.
So back to my original question - any one have tips on using
competitive pricing to drive oracle down to more competitive pricing?


1) Get your figures straight 2) Negotiate


ok, but how much room do the oracle sales guys have to negotiate? Can
you pit resellers against one another? etc, etc.

BTW, one techniques that I've found to work well is to always ensure
that my application could theoretically use either oracle or some
other viable competitor - db2, informix, sybase, etc. This means
keeping portability in mind in the design stage, and avoiding any
unnecessary proprietary functionality. This goal encourages avoidance
of such vendor-specific components as etl, data mining, application
server, gateways, etc. That's not much of a limitation since most of
the database vendor-supplied solutions are gross anyways.
Nov 12 '05 #91
Ian
Noons wrote:
Ian apparently said,on my timestamp of 22/06/2004 4:04 AM:

Is this DPF thing one of those famous separately priced options?


You mean like every Oracle option?

No. The "meaning" is yours.
I was suprised to learn that (range/list) partitioning costs extra on
Oracle.

Me too, mainly because it isn't true.


It's not? Where does Oracle say that this isn't a separately licensed
product? Are they publishing incorrect information in their global
price list?


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nov 12 '05 #92
Ian
Mark Townsend wrote:
2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so I'm
not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison. They
also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same capability
that Advanced Security option provides.


What exactly does the Advanced Security option offer? I am looking at the
data sheet for the product, and it looks like it provides the ability for
Oracle to plug in to external (enterprise) authentication - like Oracle
Internet Directory, LDAP, RADIUS, etc ?

Don't these other products have to be licensed (whether they are from
Oracle or another vendor) ?

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nov 12 '05 #93
Ian
Daniel Morgan wrote:
Mark Townsend wrote:
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:

For example, in the system that Daniel Morgan mentioned would cost
around $80k/ CPU with oracle. That would include
enterprise edition $40k
+ partitioning $10k
+ RAC $20k
+ advanced security $10k
-------
$80k / CPU

I mentioned before that DB2 workgroup server would do that job at
about $7.5k/CPU, or about 10% of the oracle cost.
<snip>

A couple of things should be pointed out with this comparison

1) You are comparing IBM's workgroup server unlimited edition ( IBM
DB2 WUSE, limited to 4 CPUs and 32 bits, targeted at small web serving
environments) with Oracle's Enterprise Edition. A better
apples-to-apples comparison would be IBM's workgroup server unlimited
edition pricing, with Oracle's Standard Edition One (limited to 2
CPUs) or Standard Edition (limited to 4 CPUs, inlcuding RAC support
for up to 4 CPUs in a cluster).

Comparative based prices are then

Oracle SE1 4995 per CPU
IBM DB2 WUSE 7500 per CPU
Oracle SE 15000 per CPU (includes RAC)

2) IBM has no equivalent to Oracle's Partitioning or RAC option, so
I'm not sure why you would even try to include them in a comparison.
They also require an additional Tivoli product to provide the same
capability that Advanced Security option provides.

Not that dread mention of Tivoli to provide equivalent security. Every
time I bring that up the blue suits go into attack mode.

I also note
that in the comparisons not once was the DPF price or the required
add-on for HA included even though just one or two posts earlier
everyone agreed that they were essential.


1) DPF is not a high availability feature. DPF provides for
scalability only. HA is a completely separate issue, and works
with DB2 regardless of which packaging (Express, WSE or ESE).
2) There certainly may be some cost for the associated HA product,
like HACMP/Sun Cluster/Veritas Cluster/MSCS/etc. I don't know
about that pricing. But, IBM does not charge anything extra if
you want to plug DB2 in to a cluster manager -- the tools are
provided by IBM for free to plug DB2 into a cluster manager.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
Nov 12 '05 #94
Blair Adamache wrote:
For security, 99% of DB2 customers today use services provided by the
operating system (like Kerberos on Windows and RACF on zOS). I'm aware
that there are Tivoli security products, but none of them are part of a
typical DB2 installation.


They do so because equivalent security is an add-on that costs more
money. And equating mainframe operating system level security to
security on Windows ... that I find hard to take in a single bite.

To me operating system security on a server is a hole to be avoided
whenever possible. At least on most operating systems.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #95
Larry wrote:


Noons wrote:
Larry apparently said,on my timestamp of 23/06/2004 12:15 AM:
DB2 UDB includes authentication security capabilities.


"capabiliti es"?

Yes.
DB2 UDB includes database object security (which to me is the most
basic security for an rdmbs).


Really? How?

Via SQL Grant and Revoke commands.
DB2 UDB includes column-level encryption.


And?

And what?


Larry Edelstein


I think Noons attempt was to say ... "and is that all?" Because that's
not much.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #96
Blair Adamache <ba*******@2muc hspam.yahoo.com > writes:
The reference to Tivoli for security is mystifying. DB2 can use Tivoli
storage manager (or Veritas or Legato) for Backup and archival
management. DB2 can use Tivoli products for monitoring.

For security, 99% of DB2 customers today use services provided by the
operating system (like Kerberos on Windows and RACF on zOS). I'm aware
that there are Tivoli security products, but none of them are part of
a typical DB2 installation.


I suspect folks are talking about the delegation of OS user
authentication and authorization to Tivoli Identity Manager.

--
#include <disclaimer.std > /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham la*****@us.ibm. com
Nov 12 '05 #97
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<108788562 5.661141@yasure >...
1) Get your figures straight 2) Negotiate


Anyone that doesn't negotiate prices on enterprise software is someone
that would buy a car off the dealer's lot of the price listed in the
newspaper. And probably shouldn't be allowed to have a DBA account.


This is all very well, but even if Oracle price-match on the initial
deal, that's a one-off saving. Once Oracle has locked you in, you'll
find them a lot less obliging next time.

List prices do matter because they give a better guide to long-term
costs.
DG
Nov 12 '05 #98
da*****@yahoo.c om wrote:
Actually, right now I've got several oracle & db2 systems that are
using range partitioning.
DB2 using range partitioning? How? My assumption is that you are talking
about different functionality using the same word. Because union-all
views are not partitioning.
So, actually I'm getting table partitioning for free from DB2 but have
to pay for it from Oracle.
Word is the same ... functionality is completely different.

But even if what you said was correct ... How could use use union-all
views to range partition by date and subpartition by hash? You are
talking a work-around for a technology that doesn't exist in the
product.

Nothing wrong with that but it just isn't the same thing.
ok, but how much room do the oracle sales guys have to negotiate? Can
you pit resellers against one another? etc, etc.


Absolutely. They have huge flexibility. Like used car salesmen.

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #99
Database Guy wrote:
Daniel Morgan <da******@x.was hington.edu> wrote in message news:<108788562 5.661141@yasure >...

1) Get your figures straight 2) Negotiate


Anyone that doesn't negotiate prices on enterprise software is someone
that would buy a car off the dealer's lot of the price listed in the
newspaper. And probably shouldn't be allowed to have a DBA account.

This is all very well, but even if Oracle price-match on the initial
deal, that's a one-off saving. Once Oracle has locked you in, you'll
find them a lot less obliging next time.

List prices do matter because they give a better guide to long-term
costs.
DG


That has not been my experience in 36 years in this business.

Oracle sells perpetual licenses? What are they going to do to charge
you more? Redefine the word perpetual?

--
Daniel Morgan
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...ad/oad_crs.asp
http://www.outreach.washington.edu/e...oa/aoa_crs.asp
da******@x.wash ington.edu
(replace 'x' with a 'u' to reply)

Nov 12 '05 #100

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